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Post by DM Jorteck on Dec 4, 2021 17:28:40 GMT -5
Hail Cormyrians! It's been about 5 months since the current FRC team was onboarded, and it certainly has been a journey! There were big shoes to fill from the former staff, and despite a few stumbles and buggy updates (I promise to feed the server hamster next time...), it's been a blast seeing everyone give their best in breathing new life into the server. ...But change is scary! Especially when we keep things under wraps. The goal of this report is to give you context on the team's current projects, and to have the chance to give feedback early on. We will be aiming to do one of these reports per quarter. ***A large disclaimer! Just because a project is listed here, it does not mean the feature/content will make it to the live server. Some things don't survive the initial playtesting phase, or are limited by other restrictions. With that out of the way, let's discuss... ...Plots?We will be closing out the year with some smaller events, and a certain Jolly visitor! We understand that there are some folks who are hungry for a more in-depth plot, and that it has been a rather slow year from the usual world-ending catastrophes, or political chess. Behind the scenes, the DM team has been learning this process and finding the story teller’s shoes that fit them. It’s not an easy process or a quick one, but we are excited to share more with you in the new year Starting in January, a few DMs have plans to kick off a larger scale plot, as well as some smaller ones for guilds and player groups. We don’t want to spoil anything, so please stay tuned. Script Restoration - OngoingFRC has a very old codebase with more than 4,000 different scripts that have been through the hands of many scripters with different styles. Unfortunately during this time, the source code files for 300 of these scripts went missing, making it very difficult to add new features, or make changes to existing ones. So far, we have been able to reduce this number from 300 to 90, through a mix of frantic searching and reaching out to old team members, but the majority have been done manually through decompiler tools that give a vague idea of the script’s function. As an example, here is a small part of one of the area scripts decompiled with this tool: void sub_000017C2(object arg_430) { string local_431 = "Respawning area "; int local_432 = 0; object local_433 = arg_430; string local_434 = GetName(local_433, local_432); WriteTimestampedLogEntry(local_435); object local_436 = arg_430; int local_437 = GetIsObjectValid(local_436); int local_438 = !local_437; int local_439 = local_438; if (local_439) { object local_440 = arg_430; object local_441 = GetArea(local_440); object local_442 = arg_430; } else { int local_497 = local_438; } int local_444 = local_443 || local_438; if (local_444) { object local_445 = 0; object local_446 = arg_430; object local_447 = GetFirstObjectInArea(local_446); object local_445 = local_447; string local_448 = ""; } else { } return; }
void sta_00001932() { object local_466 = local_445; int local_467 = 1; SetEncounterActive(local_467, local_466); }
void sta_0000197B() { string local_476 = "X0_TREASURE_HAS_BEEN_GENERATED"; object local_477 = local_445; DeleteLocalInt(local_477, local_476); }
void sta_00001A0C() { string arg_488 = local_448; object arg_489 = local_445; sub_00001B04(local_462, local_448); return; }
void sta_000018AC() { object arg_491 = local_445; sub_00001AC0(local_448); return; }
void sub_00001AC0(object arg_491) { string local_492 = "horde_spawned"; object local_493 = arg_491; DeleteLocalInt(local_493, local_492); string local_494 = "horde_uniqued"; object local_495 = arg_491; DeleteLocalInt(local_495, local_494); }
Even with these tools, we are essentially guessing on the feature set that these scripts used to provide, and it’s very likely that we will see weirder and more annoying bugs over the next few months. Please be patient with us as we get through the last of these forgotten scripts New Player Experience - In developmentFor players who are new to roleplaying, or playing FRC for the first time, it can be quite intimidating when you first join the server. You are introduced to the border area which teaches you some basic gameplay, but otherwise feels disconnected from the rest of the module and setting. For newer players, it can set an incorrect expectation on what the server is about, and for experienced players, it is simply something you have to grind through to finally make your new character. The next server update will be focused on improving this experience, starting with a brand new character creation area that new characters will spawn into: This is an OOC area that is intended to be a gallery of the major characters and story beats relevant to the setting. Newer players can walk around to learn a bit more, while existing players or players who want to discover the history in-game, can immediately get into the next steps of character creation. Character CreationSpeaking to a certain NPC in this area will prompt you with a new character creation flow: This character creation window will replace the origin and language selection functionality from the current border area. Additionally, we will be introducing additional steps for enforcing the various character creation rules such as the restrictions for monk/paladin orders, and patron deities: frc.proboards.com/thread/29392/server-expanded-character-creation-rulesThe biggest change here will be the introduction of the “Background” selection. The background and origin selection decides where the character will start, from 4 different starting locations (similar to the border area). The intent is to make the character’s start in the module feel less disconnected from their story, and a part of their story that they can share with others. As an example, characters whose origin is from Cormyr, will no-longer be on the border trying to get a charter to enter. While we will be offering a fixed list of options as backgrounds, their primary intent is to help newer players into the module rather than funnelling characters into a forced stereotype. There will always be an option to choose a custom background if there isn’t one that fits your character. Reworked Encounter System: Encounter Timers - In developmentWith growing pains with the current area cleaner systems, we would like to replace it with a refreshed, unified system with support for per-PC timers for encounters (creature spawns) and item/loot containers. This means that encounters and loot will be immediately available to the next party after another leaves an area, rather than at a seemingly random amount of time. If you return to an encounter trigger or loot container before it has been reset for your PC (7 days), the encounter will not trigger, and items will not spawn in containers you have already looted. If you are in a party with other players, encounters triggered by any member of the party will apply the timer to all characters in the party, as will opening containers. Creatures spawned from player characters outside of your party that are still in your encounter timer will not earn your character XP when they are killed. There will be an initial grace period when the feature launches as we see how this works with the existing rules for farming. Future iterations could introduce varying timers to allow for larger loot drops in dungeons with longer reset timers, and shorter ones for encounters that are less lucrative, but fun to play. Depending on how this release goes, our goal would be to phase out the 7 day rule. This means that if you are unable to complete a dungeon because of time constraints or a particularly mean baddie, you could return later and progress through the dungeon at your own pace, or find some friends to help you. Player Housing System - ExplorationPlayer housing requests have been on hold since FRC’s first migration to EE in late 2018: Player Housing PolicyFRC has offered Player Housing off and on over its life. Currently Player Housing is on hold with only a few the exceptions for requests made before a freeze was put in place for the NWN EE Conversion. Player Housing opportunities may be offered again in the future as a reward for roleplay effort in game. An announcement will be posted at the time that decision is made. While this is not an official announcement (player housing requests will still be denied at this time!), we would like to share the next steps for the updated player housing system and what we are currently working towards. What are the current problems?Player housing has always been a hard thing to prioritize over other builds and features, as the build typically benefitted only a small set of players. We also found that it ended up being a final goal for many characters, who ended up retiring after they got their build into the module. The New SystemThe intention behind the new system is to remove DM/builder involvement entirely, and leave player housing as a sandbox for you to design and improve over time (Or pay another character to do it for you!) Initially, there will be a few NPCs that will sell deeds for rooms and housing in the major cities with varying layouts, as well as additional keys for guests or partners. These rooms will be accessible from a shared exterior door that will prompt you to access your specific room, or another’s who you have a key for. Once characters have purchased a home, the supplied rooms will be almost entirely void of furniture, outside of the few elements that the layout offers. To fill the space, the existing furniture vendors will have a new option to purchase furniture specifically for houses. These purchases will not go to your character’s inventory, but a separate toolbox/vault that has all of the furniture you have purchased. This furniture can only be accessed while you are in your home, for use in placement mode. Placement mode is the final piece of the new housing system where you can arrange all of the furniture you have purchased in a way that best suits you! (Or your character’s significant other/s…) It is accompanied by the "Toolbox" will contain all of your purchased furniture as a selectable inventory, and also contain tools that allow you to precisely place, rotate and adjust furniture. Placement mode on: Placement mode off: Questions? Feedback?Please post in this thread
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Dec 4, 2021 17:51:58 GMT -5
First initial question that comes to mind is about the spawn timer. Would that be spawn timer per player or per PC? Big difference there.
And YES! So glad about the housing feature being worked on. Self serving question here: I'm assuming this is different and more involved if the player in question intends to open a shop or temple where the place will have more public accessibility? i.e. more of an involved effort than just gathering enough gold to buy a deed
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Post by DM Jorteck on Dec 4, 2021 18:56:39 GMT -5
First initial question that comes to mind is about the spawn timer. Would that be spawn timer per player or per PC? Big difference there. The timers would be per character (PC) similar to the current 7 day rule. You can repeat areas with different characters. I'm assuming this is different and more involved if the player in question intends to open a shop or temple where the place will have more public accessibility? i.e. more of an involved effort than just gathering enough gold to buy a deed We only had private housing in mind for the initial release of the system, but you raise a very good point about public spaces for merchants and crafters. It's something we'll look into as we do more prototyping
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Post by Kat on Dec 4, 2021 21:19:23 GMT -5
The player housing solution looks like a lot of work, for you the builders and for the players in setting it up every time. I am wondering why we don't just open up the current locked houses and place some generic places around. From my perspective, they don't have to be lockable. I personally am not a fan of locks, on player housing. If there is a decent spread, people will just gravitate to the place/location that suits them. And when they are done with them, other players can take over. Being able to put in some small personalisations via your tool would be awesome though.
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Dec 4, 2021 22:26:59 GMT -5
The player housing solution looks like a lot of work, for you the builders and for the players in setting it up every time. I am wondering why we don't just open up the current locked houses and place some generic places around. From my perspective, they don't have to be lockable. I personally am not a fan of locks, on player housing. If there is a decent spread, people will just gravitate to the place/location that suits them. And when they are done with them, other players can take over. Being able to put in some small personalisations via your tool would be awesome though. There are already inns in every city/town that basically serve this purpose. A big part of player housing is making it personal and unique for the individual player as well as any friends they might have. The ability to say "this is my place and no one elses" means something and can make for some very good RP moments. This could be especially true but not necessarily limited to those who would just prefer to spend most of their time RP'ing and not out adventuring. If it isn't a players cup of tea there is no obligation to buy a home. Aside from all of that, this is something many players have been asking and waiting for a very long time.
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Post by Raven on Dec 4, 2021 23:06:14 GMT -5
The player housing solution looks like a lot of work, for you the builders and for the players in setting it up every time. I am wondering why we don't just open up the current locked houses and place some generic places around. From my perspective, they don't have to be lockable. I personally am not a fan of locks, on player housing. If there is a decent spread, people will just gravitate to the place/location that suits them. And when they are done with them, other players can take over. Being able to put in some small personalisations via your tool would be awesome though. You need locks mostly because sometimes we can not have nice things because of a few bad apples. Someone could spend a great dal of time getting everything right just to log back on later and have everything in shambles or stolen. So yes, locks are sadly required.
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Post by iamthecircle on Dec 5, 2021 5:37:33 GMT -5
To elaborate on something from the player housing, will there be set locations? Or can we request housing in more exotic locations? I know some old characters have housing in the wilderness, for example, because they prefer to be isolated. Will that still be an option, based on the current plans?
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Post by mysticalkas on Dec 5, 2021 10:24:59 GMT -5
Since we are discussing housing, There are player houses that are no longer being used because players stopped playing. A suggestion would be, contact those players and see if they are still interested in playing here, if not, you would just need someone to purchase the home again, located in various locals, and re-key them. Saves a lot of time and effort.
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Post by DM Jorteck on Dec 5, 2021 10:51:43 GMT -5
To elaborate on something from the player housing, will there be set locations? Or can we request housing in more exotic locations? I know some old characters have housing in the wilderness, for example, because they prefer to be isolated. Will that still be an option, based on the current plans? The locations will be fixed for the initial release, and we'll make a decision on custom locations when we do the migrations of the existing housing to the new system (which will happen last). Since we are discussing housing, There are player houses that are no longer being used because players stopped playing. A suggestion would be, contact those players and see if they are still interested in playing here, if not, you would just need someone to purchase the home again, located in various locals, and re-key them. Saves a lot of time and effort. This will likely happen in the same migration update to come later.
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Post by Sioladuil on Dec 5, 2021 11:35:21 GMT -5
Have timezones been considered in regards to the seven day scripts (which i am largely in favour if, git out and explore this beautiful mod!)?
For example, if I travel with somebody who is eight hours behind my time zone, when is the cut off point? Is it timed to the minute/second? Is is there a cut off point? Would we, in reality, have to wait until day 9 before we can visit the dungeon again (due to sleep patterns etc) or can we visit it again as we normally would?
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Post by Sioladuil on Dec 5, 2021 11:39:58 GMT -5
With Player Housing, will there be the option to buy different styles of housing? Like ships etc?
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Post by DM Jorteck on Dec 5, 2021 13:24:01 GMT -5
Have timezones been considered in regards to the seven day scripts (which i am largely in favour if, git out and explore this beautiful mod!)? For example, if I travel with somebody who is eight hours behind my time zone, when is the cut off point? Is it timed to the minute/second? Is is there a cut off point? Would we, in reality, have to wait until day 9 before we can visit the dungeon again (due to sleep patterns etc) or can we visit it again as we normally would? The exact specifics of this are still being worked out - the initial design was specific to the player and down to the second. (Meaning doing a dungeon on Sunday at 9:03PM, would mean it would unlock the next Sunday at 9:03PM). But with the mix of time zones in mind and how hard it can be to get a group together, we might look at having a specific server "reset" time that is shared for everyone. Let's say the server reset happened on Thursday, 8PM. If you completed the same dungeon on a Friday, or on a Sunday, the timer would reset the same time every Thursday. With Player Housing, will there be the option to buy different styles of housing? Like ships etc? Possibly in the future. The initial release will only have a few layouts in the major cities using the standard interior tilesets.
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Post by Sioladuil on Dec 5, 2021 13:35:45 GMT -5
Have timezones been considered in regards to the seven day scripts (which i am largely in favour if, git out and explore this beautiful mod!)? For example, if I travel with somebody who is eight hours behind my time zone, when is the cut off point? Is it timed to the minute/second? Is is there a cut off point? Would we, in reality, have to wait until day 9 before we can visit the dungeon again (due to sleep patterns etc) or can we visit it again as we normally would? The exact specifics of this are still being worked out - the initial design was specific to the player and down to the second. (Meaning doing a dungeon on Sunday at 9:03PM, would mean it would unlock the next Sunday at 9:03PM). But with the mix of time zones in mind and how hard it can be to get a group together, we might look at having a specific server "reset" time that is shared for everyone. Let's say the server reset happened on Thursday, 8PM. If you completed the same dungeon on a Friday, or on a Sunday, the timer would reset the same time every Thursday. With Player Housing, will there be the option to buy different styles of housing? Like ships etc? Possibly in the future. The initial release will only have a few layouts in the major cities using the standard interior tilesets. Alright, thanks for that mate!
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Post by malclave on Dec 5, 2021 14:22:30 GMT -5
Have timezones been considered in regards to the seven day scripts (which i am largely in favour if, git out and explore this beautiful mod!)? For example, if I travel with somebody who is eight hours behind my time zone, when is the cut off point? Is it timed to the minute/second? Is is there a cut off point? Would we, in reality, have to wait until day 9 before we can visit the dungeon again (due to sleep patterns etc) or can we visit it again as we normally would? The exact specifics of this are still being worked out - the initial design was specific to the player and down to the second. (Meaning doing a dungeon on Sunday at 9:03PM, would mean it would unlock the next Sunday at 9:03PM). But with the mix of time zones in mind and how hard it can be to get a group together, we might look at having a specific server "reset" time that is shared for everyone. Let's say the server reset happened on Thursday, 8PM. If you completed the same dungeon on a Friday, or on a Sunday, the timer would reset the same time every Thursday. I like this idea. Characters would still only be able to do a dungeon once per 7 day period. It's bad enough sometimes trying to figure out where a group can go with the 7 day limit, I'd hate to have to keep track to the minute. Especially since if you're really close on the timer, a dungeon that looks okay to start might stop spawning before the end, if I understand what's being considered. Edit.. additional question: Is this being considered for just "dungeons" (including things like camps) or regular wilderness encounters as well?
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Post by brygun on Dec 5, 2021 16:02:16 GMT -5
On Player Housing
The workload for coding and maintenance is certainly an issue.
Price wise a simple house in medieval could be LESS than a suit of full plate so EVERY player could afford a basic house. A peasant house perhaps. It gets silly when online games set <Dr Evil Voice> One Million Gold <voice off> prices that mean any peasant is far wealthier than the adventurers.
As mentioned in the original post there is the matter for custom houses of data storage, coding and so one that is something other than zero. As updates come along that also means some maintenance which might be small but not zero. The custom house is sporadically used by the owner and rarely to never used by anyone else. Over all the map usage is rare.
There is also that player X may stop playing after a period of time, months or years, but there is a natural rotation. Now the custom with other than zero maintenance is an unused burden.
A workable solution is to like the inns to have players buy permament keys or deeds that allow them use of generic houses. The OOC agreement that only one set of people use a house at a time. Like the inn rooms someone could walk in on another person/set. IT balances a limited amount of coding for a rarely used area.
Larger groups like guilds of multiple players are often used so could be for agreeable to having custom bases. Long term plot things like the government of Valkur's Roar and Purple Dragon Knights are going to be around for years whatever happens to player X or Y or Z. Judging by the forums a few of the permament guilds are active and some might be empty or just not posted in. The player groups are similar to this with them being more prone to lead player X being gone and no longer recruiting/planning for that group. Chief for the custom bases is that using the custom map and any scripts isn't dependent on any one or two players with the understanding that it will be passed on to others if X and Y stop coming by.
So in the experience of years of game play vs realism vs coding the suggestion is:
= Inn keys for easy access for everyone = Generic home keys for moderate purchase (~ 1,000 gp not 1 Million) = Custom homes/bases for long term groups
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Post by DM Flash on Dec 5, 2021 18:01:51 GMT -5
There was a lot of discussion around these topics and I'd like to share some further insights/transparency: Plots: My focus will be on the Greatgaunt Volunteers, attempting to create an environment where players new and old -want- to stay below lvl 10. I personally think the key is to place a renewed emphasis on player stories from the start to help you feel invested in that PC early on, and find ways to weave those stories together for shared experiences. These events won't all be combat but the ones that are will lean towards "easy" so as to not suffocate RP. I would like to see you take time to emote "Boom Pow!" or something when you crit a goblin to the face or cut a kobold in two with one hit, or shed a tear and say a prayer for a fallen comrade rather than just throwing a limp corpse over your shoulder without a second thought. Non-combat events will require dice rolls so choose your Skill Point distribution wisely; you wont be able to punch your way out of every situation. The Volunteer ranks are Private, Corporal, Sergeant, and Sergeant Major. PC's that take the time and energy to attain the final rank will receive special recognition and thanks from the Council of Greatgaunt (hint hint) but if your PC reaches lvl 11 before that time...you are retired from services so that you may continue your adventures elsewhere in the Kingdom. We had some success with Character Creation Month awhile back so keep an eye out for CCM 2022. The summary here is "Back to the basics of PnP and RP." Scripting & Character Creation: I truly appreciate our Builder/Scripter team Jorteck/Sauron Et al. for tackling the code and revamping the Character Creation process and other module areas. It's a lot of behind-the-scenes work that goes a long way for our community and I wanted to call it out and thank you for it. Our hope is to help connect character creation to the rest of the modules so it feels less of a chore while doing a better job of setting expectations and introducing newcomers to the FRC setting. It also will be a refreshing experience for our longstanding community members. Reworked Encounter System: I'm really looking forward to the revamped Encounters because quite honestly the 7 Day Rule is a huge pain in my rear, and in my heart. As a player it can be frustrating having to come up with an IC excuse why you cannot travel with the party, and as a DM I take no pleasure in having to enforce it when I see it because it's not a fun conversation for either side. So we're going to remove the issue altogether by making it mechanical so that we can all focus on the things we enjoy. Player Housing System: We all want different things but for starters, we felt it best to go with this "apartment" type model - A shared exterior entrance with various units that players can purchase placeable furniture/furnishings for. Even within this first iteration you can choose to hang your hat, host dinner parties, hold secret meetings, run a small business, be a noisy neighbor, etc. As DM Jorteck stated, just because a project is listed here, it does not mean the feature/content will make it to the live server. Some things don't survive the initial playtesting phase, or are limited by other restrictions. But we all felt that a little transparency would go a long way
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Post by deadbeatbert on Dec 5, 2021 18:25:59 GMT -5
This sounds like a step in the right direction, but what about things that have already been taken away from guilds? Shouldn't the priority be replacing them? If this is a priority why isn't this mentioned in this update? Also, is there an official position on existing items on pcs that are considered illegal now?
Regarding timers - is this really necessary? How much builder time and server resources will be used including this to further police people that could be directed elsewhere?
Housing - What, if any, measures will be put in place to allow experienced NWN builders to make their own interiors. It's a good start to go with a slightly more versatile Skyrim housing system, but everyone I know has much more imagination than that. There are other servers with better systems in place. Have they been considered, and if so, why has this direction been chosen over them? If the housing system does later adapt to accommodate a more imaginative system, will players be reimbursed for the money they have already spent?
As I said, this is a start, but I still have major reservations. The title says transparency, but this is a script/build list. How much of this is DM team based in decision making and much of it is Build team only? People have left because of many issues. None of which are listed here.
Cheers,
B
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Post by DM Flash on Dec 5, 2021 20:21:34 GMT -5
There were 2 issues with Guilds, one being with a Guild Shop and the other being with a Guild Hall. In both cases the actions taken by the DM Team were necessary, and in both cases I've spoken to the Guild Leader and/or ranking member to let them know I will advocate on their behalf, and that has not changed. Also...
This list is not all-inclusive and there are other agenda items we have planned, these were the ones for the whole community. We do the best we can to prioritize projects but as you can see...we can't please everyone all the time. Be patient, the important takeaway here is you have a Team that is actively working on these and other projects, and taking community feedback such as this into future consideration. If you want to chat further on this subject in particular my inbox is always open.
In short, yes. We will no longer have any need to police it and players could intentionally visit an empty dungeon for all kinds of RP reasons, I imagine.
Other Staff may chime in but to the best of my understanding, FRC historically has not allowed external content from outside the Build Team and internally we do not allow Staff to build for themselves or their Guilds where applicable. The DM Team is aware of the personalization aspect of Housing and concluded that for our plans here on FRC this method is where we are going to start. This is something many players have been looking forward to for many years and I'm excited to see how it turns out.
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Post by DM Jorteck on Dec 5, 2021 20:38:51 GMT -5
Lots of questions! I'll also add to Flash's points: This sounds like a step in the right direction, but what about things that have already been taken away from guilds? Shouldn't the priority be replacing them? If this is a priority why isn't this mentioned in this update? Also, is there an official position on existing items on pcs that are considered illegal now? The things we decided to include in this report were projects we have aligned on as a team, and agreed to start working on. Specifically on guild stores, items and economy, we have not agreed on what the next steps are. The removal of certain item stores was done because they had items that didn't fit the existing guidelines we have in place for balancing (which we won't share for obvious reasons). The replacement of these items is still a policy we are discussing. Regarding timers - is this really necessary? How much builder time and server resources will be used including this to further police people that could be directed elsewhere? The timers are specifically to relieve the ongoing policing aspect that causes heated discussions with the staff and certain players. On the scripting side, it's a fairly small project for a rather big gain for DMs being able to do actual fun stuff. Housing - What, if any, measures will be put in place to allow experienced NWN builders to make their own interiors. It's a good start to go with a slightly more versatile Skyrim housing system, but everyone I know has much more imagination than that. There are other servers with better systems in place. Have they been considered, and if so, why has this direction been chosen over them? If the housing system does later adapt to accommodate a more imaginative system, will players be reimbursed for the money they have already spent? We are aware of the existing systems that allow you to use the toolset to export area files and upload them directly, but the toolset is certainly not perfect. We are going with this approach as no other server has done it, and we believe that the new scriptable GUI can match the tooling of the toolset for area building, or do a better job at it. Wait until it actually exists before bashing it as being worse than other systems or servers As I said, this is a start, but I still have major reservations. The title says transparency, but this is a script/build list. How much of this is DM team based in decision making and much of it is Build team only? People have left because of many issues. None of which are listed here. Both player housing and the projects to address the 7 day rule were solutions to common problems or long-requested features raised by players - at least these were topics that were immediately obvious to us. The server isn't perfect in a lot of ways, but we can't fix everything in one patch - we have to prioritize. If you think we're prioritizing the wrong things, then tell us more about these "many issues" that are causing the most grief. We can't address problems we don't know about, hence why we are going forward with these transparency posts. We're hoping that it gives folks the chance to give their criticisms so we can address them directly, rather than being thrown into the damaging rumour mill that happens behind the scenes.
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Post by iamthecircle on Dec 6, 2021 11:11:53 GMT -5
Actually, I guess I do have one question about the encounter scripting. If this is per-player what is to stop a crafty player (certainly not me, no sireebob) from simply partying up with another character who hasn't done it in a given week? Couldn't I - er... someone else... simply party with with a new group every day and run the ullack a bunch of times? I suspect I'm misreading the section somehow, though.
As a side-note, everything in the report looks very cool.
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Post by deadbeatbert on Dec 6, 2021 13:08:08 GMT -5
Hey Jortek, thanks for taking the time to reply. It's much appreciated.
1. If guild store items were removed for being unbalanced why do players still have those items where they are actively in use? I'm sure you can understand the confusion in taking steps without a plan in place, as you said.
2. Policing issues have existed since the game came out. I know I've dealt with more than my fair share of them elsewhere. Can you give more transparency on what these heated discussions and issues are/were? No one I know has included it in their list of reasons for leaving. If it is "certain players" why isn't this dealt with warnings/bans per the norm? I understand that no one wants to be a policeman online, but FRC taking drastic, all encompassing measures that affect the entire player base (The vast majority of which fully abide by the rules) is nothing new. If there is hard coding being used to enforce rules can we expect further hard coded changes in the future? One example is the hobbling of players who run, which is currently DM enforced. And I certainly hope I didn't just seed an idea, there.
Technical question: How will this system compensate for DM events and RP rescues in dungeon areas?
3. I didn't bash the system that is being implemented. I said that other systems exist and they work perfectly well, especially considering the wealth of imagination that the players here and elsewhere have. Building an entirely new system when other systems that work perfectly well seems a little excessive.
4. In relation to your question regarding feedback: Were any of these items discussed with the player base in any form before being given the go ahead, or was it an arbitrary decision made on the back end? Will a poll or discussion to discuss improving the community's wants and wishes occur without fear of in game punishment or ostracisation? I sent a long list of items that was half in part a large sample of reasons players gave for leaving. I had an amazing, open honest and revelatory discussion with MK who then sent a list of issues brought up to the DM team. Raven replied to me privately on the matter. How is it that you are unaware of it? Mostly, the players who left are tired of generic answers like Flash gave above that amount to stop asking questions, trust your overlords. It gives the appearance that you don't really want to discuss the topic, but rather prefer to present the air of a separate DM and Build Team that only cares about they want individually, not what the community does.
The cultural aspect is the largest aspect and honestly I don't expect for one second to see it be considered, let alone discussed freely. I've been here twelve years and know how the FRC cultural system of control works. In lieu of this, I'll directly quote what one player sent me yesterday after they read your post:
"The ideas are nice, but it's like mom buying the child a new XBOX when they need their worn out shoes fixed or replaced. Is the intent to just attract new players and replace the ones that left without addressing why they left?"
In closing. I am not intending to provoke. You asked, I answered as plainly and openly as I dare.
Cheers.
EDIT: a word.
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Post by malclave on Dec 6, 2021 14:34:49 GMT -5
Actually, I guess I do have one question about the encounter scripting. If this is per-player what is to stop a crafty player (certainly not me, no sireebob) from simply partying up with another character who hasn't done it in a given week? Couldn't I - er... someone else... simply party with with a new group every day and run the ullack a bunch of times? I suspect I'm misreading the section somehow, though. I think you've got that backwards. The way I read it, if anyone in the group has done it, things won't spawn.
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Post by iamthecircle on Dec 6, 2021 16:52:53 GMT -5
Actually, I guess I do have one question about the encounter scripting. If this is per-player what is to stop a crafty player (certainly not me, no sireebob) from simply partying up with another character who hasn't done it in a given week? Couldn't I - er... someone else... simply party with with a new group every day and run the ullack a bunch of times? I suspect I'm misreading the section somehow, though. I think you've got that backwards. The way I read it, if anyone in the group has done it, things won't spawn. The only thing I can see regarding this is the statement: "If you are in a party with other players, encounters triggered by any member of the party will apply the timer to all players in the party, as will opening containers." Which seems to mean "When you're partied, any encounters triggered will apply to all members of the party", but that doesn't apply to the next group you party with.
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Post by DM Foresight on Dec 6, 2021 17:40:34 GMT -5
I think you've got that backwards. The way I read it, if anyone in the group has done it, things won't spawn. The only thing I can see regarding this is the statement: "If you are in a party with other players, encounters triggered by any member of the party will apply the timer to all players in the party, as will opening containers." Which seems to mean "When you're partied, any encounters triggered will apply to all members of the party", but that doesn't apply to the next group you party with. Malclave’s interpretation is correct. If you do the area in a group, and the following day go back with a new group who has not been there in the last 7 days, they will not spawn loot or get XP because you are in their group and were there in the last 7 days.
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Post by brygun on Dec 6, 2021 20:35:01 GMT -5
On DM Flash and the level 1-10: That has always had and continues to have my support. As a community there is always a need for brining people in. That's true of every "society". There always is some loss of people to changes in age, interest changes, birth, children, school and work. It will always be useful to have things to do for the newly arrived.
My own character only managed perhaps one of of Flash's events yet knowing those were going on was part of the attraction to the community. Did manage Xandy into other higher level events as well. Now with Xandy past level 10 I still support that some of the DM activity be aimed at the new arrivals.
IC I've also supported the guild by talking about it with unrecognized, likely newer characters. Some didnt even know the adventurer charter in their inventory meant anything. Pointing them to the GG Volunteers lets them know there are things for them to do. In turn by the time they play through those levels their character's personality, faith, interests and skills are knowable for other guilds/groups to consider them.
Starter guild good guild.
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Post by DM Jorteck on Dec 6, 2021 22:23:45 GMT -5
Hey Jortek, thanks for taking the time to reply. It's much appreciated. 1. If guild store items were removed for being unbalanced why do players still have those items where they are actively in use? I'm sure you can understand the confusion in taking steps without a plan in place, as you said. It's not the players' fault that the items were available to purchase. We missed it during our review of the area, and that's on us. We typically won't retroactively take away items unless it's absolutely necessary to do so. Hey Jortek, thanks for taking the time to reply. It's much appreciated. 2. Policing issues have existed since the game came out. I know I've dealt with more than my fair share of them elsewhere. Can you give more transparency on what these heated discussions and issues are/were? No one I know has included it in their list of reasons for leaving. If it is "certain players" why isn't this dealt with warnings/bans per the norm? I understand that no one wants to be a policeman online, but FRC taking drastic, all encompassing measures that affect the entire player base (The vast majority of which fully abide by the rules) is nothing new. We have about 760 threads in the DM sub-forum from discussions around the 7 day rule, and warnings/bans issued to players. Mostly coming from players who pick this up as an action server rather than a roleplay one. It's the most common rule that is broken, and it's the most draining one to police. I'm not sure I understand your argument here, the only players "drastically" affected by the new timers are players who were not following the existing rules. If there is hard coding being used to enforce rules can we expect further hard coded changes in the future? One example is the hobbling of players who run, which is currently DM enforced. And I certainly hope I didn't just seed an idea, there. You can be the sole tester for a stamina system for us! /s The only other hard-coded changes in the immediate future will be the multiclassing rules we currently have in place for monk/paladin orders. This will be part of the new character update. Technical question: How will this system compensate for DM events and RP rescues in dungeon areas? DMs can temporarily disable the system for areas used in DM events, so players are still correctly rewarded. 3. I didn't bash the system that is being implemented. I said that other systems exist and they work perfectly well, especially considering the wealth of imagination that the players here and elsewhere have. Building an entirely new system when other systems that work perfectly well seems a little excessive. I agree that other housing systems work well, my comment was specifically about you calling them better systems vs a system that you haven't used yet. If we did decide to copy another server, their implementations are not publicly available. So we have to make the system from scratch regardless. If it's the same amount of effort scripting wise, why wouldn't we try something that's actually unique and also has the benefit of working for players as well as toolset builders? 4. In relation to your question regarding feedback: Were any of these items discussed with the player base in any form before being given the go ahead, or was it an arbitrary decision made on the back end? Will a poll or discussion to discuss improving the community's wants and wishes occur without fear of in game punishment or ostracisation? I sent a long list of items that was half in part a large sample of reasons players gave for leaving. I had an amazing, open honest and revelatory discussion with MK who then sent a list of issues brought up to the DM team. Raven replied to me privately on the matter. How is it that you are unaware of it? Mostly, the players who left are tired of generic answers like Flash gave above that amount to stop asking questions, trust your overlords. It gives the appearance that you don't really want to discuss the topic, but rather prefer to present the air of a separate DM and Build Team that only cares about they want individually, not what the community does. You are in the thread for that discussion - as was mentioned in the opening post, all of these are subject to change or not be implemented at all based on player feedback. We are already exploring a different option for the encounter timers due to the point raised about timezones. As for how we choose ideas, it's a mix of popular posts we find in the ideas and suggestions forum (E.g. Subdual mode, Persistent storage), common requests sent to DMs (pretty much every 2nd PM in the case of player housing), or issues that are consistent bogging down the DM team (the 7 day rule). We'll also be reading this thread for any other ideas that might pop up. On the culture aspect, I feel like these stories of banishment for sharing an opinion still makes the rounds despite being from teams and staff prior to us, but it is what it is. We're trying our best to change this and be more open to everyone, but it's an impossible task if you don't give us a chance. If you have constructive feedback to share, we won't punish you for it, we welcome it. If we didn't, we wouldn't be responding to this thread. If you still don't trust us, or a specific member on the team, the Player Advocates are there if you have thoughts to share anonymously. The poll idea is a good point, and I've added one to the opening post. I'm aware of the feedback you sent in, but I'll share it here for context and give my thoughts. 1: If DMs are going to intercede in a character's activity, have them at least speak to the player. Basic diplomacy. (also the random murder hoboing of groups has to stop. It only creates player dm team division. DMs should behave like players have to according to the rules and treat them all with the same courtesy.) Example: I went a week on Gideon with a 'sprained/broken ankle because of Ruin without any interaction. Apparently I ran once (Spell time constraints aren't/weren't supposed to be player or character knowledge or something) and it was decided I needed to have walking enforced on me to teach me otherwise. I don't have the full context of these specific events, but if you have the date/time when this happened I could find out. Another DM might also be able to chime in here. 2: Make religions more important and worth having characters going to their respective places of worship. If a temple sells kits, for example, have a worshipper be able to buy them at a decent discount, maybe a little more pricey than Shallybrook. Also, worshipper items shouldn't be so exorbitant. Sune, and Hoar are good examples. 3: Selling - Evening out store selling values will lead to more cities being used. Basic economics. Answered in my last reply. We are still aligning as a team on next steps for stores + economy. 4: Open up Event areas for normal rp. Why this is done I have no idea, but there are great areas that players cannot use without DM interaction. WHY?! The Arabel theatre, the Shallybrook ballroom/dancehall. Perfect places for players to want to go to see a bard practice or play so smaller groups can go and have fun. I'll specifically comment on the Arabel theatre - I agree that as DMs, we should let player actions drive the setting, and it is why we have no desire to force players to share areas they own, just as we don't force guilds to have an open door. If all of the keys are stuck on inactive PCs, we might offer a plot for transferring control or making it open. But I know this isn't the case for the theatre. The in-character approach is always there. Try leaving a letter there, and a player might get back to you for using it more regularly In saying that, it would be nice to have more public, open interior areas for this type of thing, and perhaps Shallybrook would be a good place for it. The build team would have to dig and see if we have that area still. 5: Fix what doesn't work first. Key scripts aren't working, There are quest items that have no role etc. Having a place that works is better than polishing things that do not. Addressed in my first reply, we are working on script restoration. 6: Rules: Some of them are very nebulous. Also DMs are taking items from characters saying they can't have them at such a level. Put it in the rules. Make it clear and concise. I can lend money to help a character buy an item, but there is an invisible limit that appears to be different for every dm. That creates discord in the community, especially as some DMs will inevitably bend rules for their friends. No way to stop that happening. The rules were already updated, specifically on loans. 7: Guild stores were removed without first being replaced. Big no no. This more relates to 5, but it's taking things away from players without giving a solution first. This creates more player animosity. Guild of a 1000 nightmares is a prime example. Addressed in my first reply + this one. 8 (Hopely lastly for now) The DIscord/voice chat rule is asinine. If you can rp around a table and play DnD you can do in NWN. Treat players like adults and remove every rule like this that holds community growth back. (Also - ERP being discouraged is a rule?! What does that even mean? You can ERP but if you do you'll be punished for it?) It really isn't - for anyone not in the discord call (players + DMs trying to make encounters more fun for you), it makes them feel like they are RPing against a brick wall. So the choice is to either force everyone who plays with you to jump on voice, or just don't play with them. It's usually the latter and it forces cliques to be formed because of it. On ERP and torture RP, we discourage it as it can become a massive source of drama for the players involved (and haunts the DM team when posted to the wrong channel :S). As long as you follow all the other rules around the subject, it is allowed.
My question to this is that these points were specifically addressed to you already by DM Raven, and I'm not sure what is left to be said about these topics? Outside of the ones already being discussed, or that we have already agreed to start working on.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Dec 6, 2021 22:36:50 GMT -5
Jortek and Team Totally love and respect all your efforts. You are pushing the server in a great direction. Its no longer stale and hitting a wall. Cannot wait for all the implements you guys put forth. Don't let the neh sayers ruin your guys well earned praise and hard work. Most of us old timers appreciate the breath of fresh air.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Dec 7, 2021 10:09:37 GMT -5
I've got a question regarding the timer system. More of a "aftermath" deal.
If this system gets implemented and everything is working relatively smoothly, what does this mean for the level restricted dungeons? I think GG is the only place that has them (I could be wrong so please do correct me) but with a timer in place would it mean those level restrictions can be relaxed?
Or is it more of a case of that we still don't want too many PCs going into those dungeons all at once and making it harder for lower levels to succeed?
Actually, think that answers my own question, but I want to know if the crew had the same notions or had other ideas.
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Post by DM Jorteck on Dec 7, 2021 10:40:45 GMT -5
I've got a question regarding the timer system. More of a "aftermath" deal. If this system gets implemented and everything is working relatively smoothly, what does this mean for the level restricted dungeons? I think GG is the only place that has them (I could be wrong so please do correct me) but with a timer in place would it mean those level restrictions can be relaxed? Or is it more of a case of that we still don't want too many PCs going into those dungeons all at once and making it harder for lower levels to succeed? Actually, think that answers my own question, but I want to know if the crew had the same notions or had other ideas. These dungeons will have a 1 day timer instead of a 7 day one, to reflect the current ruling and pacing for lower levels. There's no plan right now to lift the level restrictions for these dungeons.
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Post by grivel on Dec 7, 2021 21:51:25 GMT -5
As a long time player, these changes are really appreciated. The server has gone through many changes in the last 10 - 15 years, some good and some not so good. As long as we have talented builders to try different things, I will back them totally. I'm sure that once these changes are implemented, if they do not work or a better solution is found, they will change again.
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