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Post by Animayhem on Sept 19, 2021 21:06:18 GMT -5
I copied this from the dm Q and A thread since we cannot respond there
DM Southpaw said,
"This may bear discussion among the DM team, but for a first, immediate answer, death amnesia has a very specific purpose of stopping revenge cycles of PVP killings that are both a cause of bad blood between players and also implausible to any sense of death having any permanence or importance. In the case of subdual, I would hope people can accept a less than deadly defeat more graciously OOC as a player, and if someone beats you up in the real world, retaliation is a possibility. Since neither of the reasons for death amnesia applies, there should be no subdual amnesia, unless the subdued player wants to play that way. That being said, if someone knocks the stuffing out of you, you're probably not going to pop right up and try to beat them down in return when you wake up, because you're not in much condition to do that, and if they've subdued you to bring your character to the authorities for a bounty or something, there's probably RP about restraining your character to be respected. Just because there isn't amnesia, that doesn't mean there aren't other aspects to respect. If someone shows you the respect to use non-lethal force on your character, it's probably best not to make them regret that decision in how you play when your character wakes up."
In real life, unfortunately people get beaten to a pulp of they anger or crossed someone. Sometimes as an innocent bystander.
Subduing a person wanted for questioning is different than someone getting pommeled for ticking someone off.
The one brought in for questioning has rp behind it and is usually known. The one who has no idea why, unlike death amnesia, can slowly remember and prosecute if they wish.
Should there be a mandated time before the person remembers?
Subudal does not have to be revenge but can be fun. Many times I have seen people wanting to spar but often could not pull back fast enough.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Sept 19, 2021 22:57:16 GMT -5
I'd stand with what DM Southpaw had already said. There shouldn't be any memory loss like you get when PVP death occurs. However, what it should emphasize is the RP of the situation. Everything is in context. A spar? Yes, if the combatants are just sparing and one knocks out the other there shouldn't be any memory loss of them getting beat. What's the point of not remembering a fight when sparing is supposed to help train? A bounty hunt? Depends if the attacker is disguised or how exactly they approach the bounty hunter target. Were disguises involved? What was the situation? Was the target already on high alert or were they relaxed? They might not have even seen the bounty hunter come up from behind and whack them. Would they recall everything? Yes, but would they recall -who- did it depends on the hunter's approach. A kidnapping? Same thing. Were disguises used? Were they snuck up on? Lots of things, but the target should remember that they were knocked out and are no longer where they were. What about the good old bar room brawl? Just how drunk was your PC at the time? A little? A lot? Not at all? Did they wake up on the bar floor or in a bed after a buddy hauled their poor unconscious stupid friend off the floor? You know you got hit, but that's about it. Again, context matters. Consequences matters. A spar? No one is going to call in the law on that. A bounty? They'd be taking the target to the law (hopefully). A kidnapping? If they can get free and identify their kidnappers then the law can be called upon. A bar room brawl? Depends on the local law enforcement, the tavern, and if the tab/damages was covered. Obscene Orge, par for the course, everyone get's put in the clinker for a night. Wailing Wheel in however, there would be more inquiries as it's a more respected establishment. Regal Griffon Inn? .. no body starts a brawl there cause Bentin would beat all your arses.
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Post by appleseedy on Sept 20, 2021 1:07:50 GMT -5
Death amnesia is a useful way to avoid the cycle of retaliation as stated.
However, there is also meaningful PVP and random PVP. In the past I have seen PVP started and combat initiated without any meaningful build up or RP. Finding an excuse for your character to attack someone is not what I mean by meaningful. Meaningful would be threats and politics and RP interaction over many months or possibly years.
For example. One character of mine was a member of a secretive guild whom they betrayed and gave up all their secrets to an enemy guild. The then leader responded with some artful threats and RP which 4/6 years down the road has still not culminated in actual combat. If at some stage this PVP occurs I would retire that character as perma dead. On this server that is a choice but i absolutely believe in ending a characters story when their story is finished rather than dragging it out coming out of retirement multiple times. Move on, let those beloved epics give up the ghost.
(edit, not voting cause i believe the question was covered by southpaw)
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Post by Sioladuil on Sept 20, 2021 4:35:07 GMT -5
I don't usually get involved in these kinds of topics on the forums, but... few thoughts. As somebody who has done their fair share of PVP shenanigans in the past, both knock outery and deathery... I have never found the death amnesia rule to be followed. Speaking from my own experience here, I know; but every time this situation has come up for myself there has always been some reason as to why the individual who usually attacked me (who ended up deadsies) remembered that my PC at the time did that... but could not remember their own participation in the lead up to the event? So although it is not the thread - that particular rule could use an update. The reason I mention this is because of the following: Roleplay matters. Actions matter. Consequences matter. Context matters. Give the individual you are knocking out some idea. If my PC was to be ambushed, beaten to death mechanically (but it was roleplayed as a knock out) and then the roleplay of disguise, blindfolds, hand tying and generally super secretive restraint shenanigans was done... is my PC going to remember who did it? Ranan Hallomein and Veshal where the absolute masters at this. FORSETIS coming in at a close second. But I digress, no. They will not remember. Will they remember what happened? Yeah... beatings stick in your memory. Having said that - if there is NO roleplay done to indicate that there are any disguises, or my character is restrained... will they remember who did it? If they know the individual(s) around the event enough to know their voice, yes they will. Will they seek vengeance (depending on the knock outery)? Well, I have one particularly ornery mage who probably would. Point is, roleplay matters. Give me something. To quote above... Roleplay matters. Actions matter. Coming to the second point... remembering. As the kidnapper, bounty hunter etc you need to notify the individual in question that there is some kind of disguise in place. Change of clothes, emoting a change in voice... even a Shapechange spell. Whatever it is, there has to be something. Again Veshal was an absolute master of this. Down to the finer details, he made sure that players knew he was disguised. Wyn was also brilliant at this if memory serves. Again. Roleplay matters. Context matters. So for me the decision of memory comes down to these things either being followed or not being followed. The incident will ALWAYS be remembered. But the details of it? Not so much, or entirely; depending on what roleplay was done around the issue at hand. It can also usually be quickly resolved between players but in situations of high tension bring in a DM and show your logs to show why you have chosen to remember/act the way you did. One incident saw one of my pc's get kidnapped. His hands where broken, he was gagged and his legs where restrained (he was a caster). However, there was no roleplay surrounding counter spelling (Or any other casters in the room), dead/wild magic areas etc... so... my PC used a silenced teleport to escape. The players involved became quite annoyed at me through tells, accused me of all manner of indiscretions. A DM got involved to mediate, looked at my character sheet and saw the Silent Spell feat and made the decision that no effective magical counter measures where taken, a concentration check was passed so my PC would have been able to teleport away. Coming on to the final point... consequences. If, for whatever reason; it goes wrong. Referencing my example above, remember that there will always be consequences to the actions your PC chooses to take. You cannot prepare for every scenario, you cannot win them all. The individual PC may escape, they may remember the pc who did it, guards might catch you or a random witness passes. This might result in your PC facing backlash or finding themselves at a detriment. Don't get annoyed if this happens, role with it. Let the story unfold. See what happens. There is usually a perfectly valid reason for what has happened. Basically, with good communication between us all and an open mind looking for fair play... instant memory should not be a problem. Roleplay, context and actions taken can completely remove the issue. If we can all remember that there are consequences to what our PC's choose to do, we can all be cool about it and enjoy playing together. Alright, I think I have rambled enough. But always finish on a quote right? The absolute hero that is ShadowCatJen said it best.
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Post by appleseedy on Sept 20, 2021 18:07:48 GMT -5
seems like a good time to mention stats and also RP stats. Charisma is my pet peeve. There are many characters with a negative charisma modifier who make no or little effort to RP negative stats.
But I digress, I was thinking about kidnappings and disguise. We have a mechanic in place to counter disguises. Want to change your voice? roll perform vs listen, want to tell a lie? roll bluff vs bluff or wisdom. Want to put on a disguise? roll perform vs spot. There is of course room for your character to be fully covered so as to be unrecognisable but talking...hard to disguise your voice well enough to fool someone with high listen skill. Having said all that don't worry to much about mechanics as RP is king but do RP your stats and skills.
What I would love too see is a system where we can mechanically create disguises that allow us to change our characters names so other players have no idea. OOC or IC, who we are (unless they make a successful role, or we tell them)
Relish the IC consequences, use RP to create the context
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