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Post by demolicious on Jul 29, 2021 5:47:58 GMT -5
This question came to mind after seeing a lot of shadowdancers around these days.
How is the shadowdancer's lvl 3 ability "Summon shadow" treated in FRC, as far as the creature it summons is concerned?
After talking to several people, including, but not limited to, people playing shadowdancers, I've heard fairly common interpretation of Shadowdancer's summoned shadow be, that it is 'different from undead shadows' because it is Shadowdancer's actual shadow, just animated. In some form of illusion (like a silent image). Something I've seen people quote this interpretation as lore of the class, though couldn't find confirmation for it.
Now, mechanically the summon is undead. You cast cure wounds on it, it's going to take damage. It uses all the stats of the undead 'Shadow' creature. (or the stronger forms of that, as Shadowdancer gains levels). It's alignment in NWN is CE (This is in the long run less important due to game limitations).
I went and reviewed Shadowdancer class entry in 3.5 tabletop (DMG 3.5 pages 194-196).
"At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. (See the Monster Manual for the shadow's statistics.) Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow’s alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn."
So in the tabletop, Shadowdancer's shadow has alignment of their summoner (and since class doesn't have alignment restrictions, you could have LG undead shadow), but it is still undead creature. Granted, tabletop also has other effects to it not visible in NWN, such as XP loss if it is destroyed or voluntarily dismissed.
Tabletop Shadowdancer also gets a second feature at lvl 3.
"Shadow Illusion (Sp)
When a shadowdancer reaches 3rd level, she can create visual illusions. This ability’s effect is identical to that of the arcane spell silent image and may be employed once per day."
Which is not present in NWN. So I can easily see how these two would get mixed up, or merged in players' minds and come to conclusion that summoned shadow is an illusion and not undead.
Anyhow, long story short. Should summoned shadow from Shadowdancer be treated as what it mechanically is (undead shadow) or should I ignore that and RP them as just illusions? Especially in cases where I've seen them summoned in towns as RP aid.
I've been functioning under assumption that they're undead and RPing accordingly, in cases where character I'm playing would feasibly recognize them, but after being informed that they're actually not undead lore wise and shouldn't be treated like that, figured I'd make a proper Q&A about it.
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Post by Retired DM Munroe on Jul 29, 2021 7:57:47 GMT -5
This question came to mind after seeing a lot of shadowdancers around these days. How is the shadowdancer's lvl 3 ability "Summon shadow" treated in FRC, as far as the creature it summons is concerned? After talking to several people, including, but not limited to, people playing shadowdancers, I've heard fairly common interpretation of Shadowdancer's summoned shadow be, that it is 'different from undead shadows' because it is Shadowdancer's actual shadow, just animated. In some form of illusion (like a silent image). Something I've seen people quote this interpretation as lore of the class, though couldn't find confirmation for it. Now, mechanically the summon is undead. You cast cure wounds on it, it's going to take damage. It uses all the stats of the undead 'Shadow' creature. (or the stronger forms of that, as Shadowdancer gains levels). It's alignment in NWN is CE (This is in the long run less important due to game limitations). I went and reviewed Shadowdancer class entry in 3.5 tabletop (DMG 3.5 pages 194-196). "At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. (See the Monster Manual for the shadow's statistics.) Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow’s alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn." So in the tabletop, Shadowdancer's shadow has alignment of their summoner (and since class doesn't have alignment restrictions, you could have LG undead shadow), but it is still undead creature. Granted, tabletop also has other effects to it not visible in NWN, such as XP loss if it is destroyed or voluntarily dismissed. Tabletop Shadowdancer also gets a second feature at lvl 3. "Shadow Illusion (Sp) When a shadowdancer reaches 3rd level, she can create visual illusions. This ability’s effect is identical to that of the arcane spell silent image and may be employed once per day." Which is not present in NWN. So I can easily see how these two would get mixed up, or merged in players' minds and come to conclusion that summoned shadow is an illusion and not undead. Anyhow, long story short. Should summoned shadow from Shadowdancer be treated as what it mechanically is (undead shadow) or should I ignore that and RP them as just illusions? Especially in cases where I've seen them summoned in towns as RP aid. I've been functioning under assumption that they're undead and RPing accordingly, in cases where character I'm playing would feasibly recognize them, but after being informed that they're actually not undead lore wise and shouldn't be treated like that, figured I'd make a proper Q&A about it. This is DM Q&A and I'm retired, so I'm not an active FRC DM anymore, but here's an answer a DM (which was me at the time) posted a few months ago. It covers this. A quick check of the 3.5e DM Guide clearly shows the word 'undead' being used to describe the shadow that is summoned. Page 195: Summon Shadow (Su): At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade (see the Monster Manual for the shadow's statistics). Mechanically it is undead, yes. It's fueled by negative energy, which makes it undead. (Not all undead started out alive, though most did.) It's not the spirit of a dead relative or stranger though, it's the shadow of the shadowdancer, manifesting as undead through the infusion of negative energy. It is not evil because the class specifies that its alignment matches that of the shadowdancer. (So sometimes it is evil, if the shadowdancer is evil.) The "shadow fiend," "shadow lord," and "epic shadowlord" designations on the shadowdancer's shadow are just Bioware's designations that they're more powerful than the basic shadow because the shadowdancer's shadow increases in hit dice as the shadowdancer levels up. The names over their heads don't change what they are, which is the shadow of the shadowdancer. (Remember that characters don't see those designations in-character.) The fact that it says "Summoned" on the shadowdancer's shadow is technically in keeping with the name of the class ability "Summon Shadow (Su)" but the shadowdancer's Summon Shadow ability functions RP-wise like the wizard and sorcerer Summon Familiar abilities. Once the shadow is conjured into its own being at level 3, it is intended as a constant companion. It would be more accurate to call it a Shadow Companion than a Summoned Shadow, but Bioware didn't do that. In the shadowdancer entry, it is specified that the shadowdancer takes an XP penalty (200 XP per SD level, DC 15 Fort to resist the XP loss) if the shadow is destroyed or dismissed, and cannot summon a replacement shadow companion (my label) for a month. This penalty isn't as harsh as the effect should a mage's familiar die or be dismissed, since they get the same XP penalty (200 XP per sorc or wizard level, DC 15 Fort to resist the XP loss) and can't summon a new familiar for a year and a day, but it's still an indicator that the companion is no mere summon. (The duration limit is likely shorter for shadowdancer also because the sorc/wiz familiar can alternatively be raised or resurrected without any penalty to its level, while the shadowdancer's shadow cannot be restored that way.) None of these things are apparent from the outside though, so a paladin can respond to it like any other undead and might have to be convinced to behave otherwise toward it. Of course if FRC allowed paladins to Detect Evil at-will, as in D&D, that would alleviate that conflict for any non-evil shadowdancers and their shadows, but it would also immediately out every other evil character, so that option isn't there. I recommend checking out that thread as well. It covers more than just the shadow. It's not a DM Q&A thread but does have some DM replies. (Shadowdancer Question(s) frc.proboards.com/post/348329/thread ) |
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Post by demolicious on Jul 29, 2021 8:55:25 GMT -5
Appreciate the response Munroe, feeling bit silly that I didn't find that particular Q&A even after looking around before posting. I did browse the Shadowdancer questions thread, however.
Follow up question, how does that interact with Cormyr law against summoning undead? With the shadow being undead, even if it might be LG, and Cormyr's laws having blanket ban of summoning, creation or binding any undead, that technically makes all shadowdancer summons automatically illegal in Cormyr?
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Post by Retired DM Munroe on Jul 29, 2021 9:31:57 GMT -5
Appreciate the response Munroe, feeling bit silly that I didn't find that particular Q&A even after looking around before posting. I did browse the Shadowdancer questions thread, however. Follow up question, how does that interact with Cormyr law against summoning undead? With the shadow being undead, even if it might be LG, and Cormyr's laws having blanket ban of summoning, creation or binding any undead, that technically makes all shadowdancer summons automatically illegal in Cormyr? Yeah, like I said. It wasn't a DM Q&A but a conversation in General Discussion where some questions were answered. I just remembered posting an answer to it. As for the shadowdancer's shadow, it's an animate shadow, an incorporeal creature. Once it's destroyed or dismissed, proving anything was summoned or that anything was undead might be difficult. (Even if it is technically undead, the shadowdancer could lie about that and claim it was an illusion such as shadow conjuration, or, alternatively, claim to have no association with it.) The legality/illegality of it would be hard to prove, so it should be treated with uncertainty, particularly by shadowdancers. Is it illegal? Ultimately that's going to come down to whatever judge or lord has to make a ruling on it. It could be argued that it's not undead because it's not an entity that was formerly alive, and some judges might be swayed by that argument. It could be argued that it's not summoned at all, but a manifestation of the shadowdancer, and that might sway some judges. However, some judges may take a more technical approach, and it is technically undead. However, as I mentioned in my previous reply, I'm not an active DM anymore, so it's not my call. (I'd think any self-directed shadow seen in town should at least raise suspicion, and a shadowdancer should have the good sense not to put their companion at risk.) Anyway, I'm going to stop responding to this topic since I'm retired. I only responded to the follow-up because you addressed me directly. |
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