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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on May 2, 2020 1:38:54 GMT -5
I'll be blunt and to the point...
If you're currently buffing lower levels before they set off on adventure or dive into a dungeon please stop doing this.
For starters it's against the rules and falls under the power leveling aspect of things. Turning lowbies into genetic freaks so soon is just not good, they're too young!
Having said that "blessing" characters is okay and allowed but one spell is usually sufficient for RP purposes if you won't be joining them on the adventure. This spell should also be appropriate to what they themselves are capable of casting or using. For a level 1-5 examples of some acceptable spells would be protection from evil, mage armor, magic weapon, bless, aid, bark skin, etc. Casting one of these spells communicates the blessing or good will and is entirely sufficient RP wise, the player mechanically gets the perk of the buff/spell and RP is accomplished, there is no need to take it further mechanically as this cheapens the challenge for that adventuring character and diminishes the integrity of FRC's dungeons.
Examples of spells that should never be used on lowbies are, Keen, GMW, Flame Weapon/Darkfire, negative energy protection, or any other higher level spell OR even spells that grow over time to +5 if you are capable of that level of casting. As a rule of thumb if you're not in the party and going on the adventure with the person then don't cast more than one level appropriate buff on them. Sometimes this can be hard to determine since peoples levels aren't hovering above their head but use your better judgement, there is some room for agency here in this decision and that's the point but please don't use your freedom to buff bot lower levels to death.
This really shouldn't even be an issue that merits mentioning or explanation, however, there have been several cases such as this lately and so yes this post was necessary.
Thank you to those of you who haven't been involved with this and to those who have, please realize that this truly does ruin the intended challenge of our dungeons and is majorly against both the spirit of FRC and the rules we have established.
As of the posting of this nobody is in trouble and only a few people have been approached over this. This post merely serves as a courtesy reminder that this kind of thing is in no way condoned here on FRC and to please be aware of that.
Thank you.
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Post by malclave on May 2, 2020 2:02:05 GMT -5
I understand the intent of this, but I'm wondering why Keen Edge and Darkfire/ Flame Weapon are prohibited. They're low-level spells and, while Darkfire/ Flame Weapon does scale up in damage, it's not by all that much (an average of an extra 1.5 damage per hit when cast by an epic caster as opposed to a low level).
I'm also wondering about something I've done in the past, but now I'm thinking it might run afoul of this rule. If I've been adventuring with a level-appropriate group and need to leave after an adventure, is it okay to refresh the spells I had been casting on my former teammates, or is that limited to a single spell as well?
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Post by Munroe on May 2, 2020 5:05:47 GMT -5
I understand the intent of this, but I'm wondering why Keen Edge and Darkfire/ Flame Weapon are prohibited. They're low-level spells and, while Darkfire/ Flame Weapon does scale up in damage, it's not by all that much (an average of an extra 1.5 damage per hit when cast by an epic caster as opposed to a low level). I'm also wondering about something I've done in the past, but now I'm thinking it might run afoul of this rule. If I've been adventuring with a level-appropriate group and need to leave after an adventure, is it okay to refresh the spells I had been casting on my former teammates, or is that limited to a single spell as well? Casting spells on characters your own level is usually fine, unless it's not fine for some other reason (such as paladins buffing necromancers). The issue is higher level characters buffing up low level PCs to go adventure without them. It inflates their power level and defensive abilities so that stuff intended for their level is no longer a suitable challenge.
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Post by StabbingNirvana on May 2, 2020 7:18:25 GMT -5
I have it on good authority though that it's ok to buff low level paladins with Holy Sword since the spell is only useful in the kobold caves and the goblin fort.
Any DM able to confirm this?
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Post by Southpaw on May 2, 2020 8:42:36 GMT -5
For those of us who really don't like intrusion upon RP by the rules for what can feel like artificial purposes (such as myself), I think if you think a little bit about the RP implications of throwing buffs around on lowbies (especially those you just met), it becomes clear this very often doesn't make a lot of RP sense. As an example, my high level ranger doesn't cast blade thirst on lowbies she's not directly in group with because she might need the spell for herself if something unexpected happens while the lowbie is out adventuring. If a pure warrior might hold on to one buff spell, when the character's real ability is all based in physical combat, then how much more is a pure caster who's so much more dependent on their spells to deal with almost everything going to hold on to their buffs.
I see this come up a lot when people are about to log off, and very explicitly not going to need their spells for a while. This has two flaws from an RP standpoint. One is that the character doesn't know they won't need their spells while the player is logged out, but plans on being part of the game world just like everyone else. The second is that a lot of people RP they are going to rest while logged out, and resting makes all buffs expire, thus giving no continued benefit to the character you buffed. This looks like exploitation of the log-in/log-out function to me.
Also, if I cast buffs on a lowbie I just met, I don't know what they're going to do with those buffs. If I don't know the character, they could take the collection of buffs I just gave them and go beat up adventurers on the road to the kobold cave or rob the Valkur's Roar bank. I actually think it would be rather amusing to see a trial where a caster tries to explain they actually weren't complicit in the heist despite what it looks like after they buffed the culprit to the nines immediately before the robbery.
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crawlingchaos63
New Member
he that dont expect nothin'... wont ever be dissapointed
Posts: 42
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Post by crawlingchaos63 on May 2, 2020 8:55:15 GMT -5
I have buffed some low levels before with Mischa,
However I think its very important to keep in mind the scale of thier level difference... when i used a buff it was only like Pro. from Evil and they are on their own after that.
I have however withnessed some others doing the full range of combat spells on a lowbie and was wondering why they needed all that power.... perhaps they have a bad char build and needed all the help they can get lol
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Post by Animayhem on May 2, 2020 8:58:51 GMT -5
Buffing Lower levels is tricky. depending on the rp, A'zu'ra will buff a lower. She limits to one casting. She gives them a choice of either, bulls, endurance or cats. These are readily available in potions I am aware ,but adventurers are short on funds.
I do not advertise come to Az for free buffs.
To say to stop it entirely is infringing on someone's rp. You may not wish to aid which is fine but maybe the person casting has it in their character and story line.
If you think someone is maybe using too many or too high of a spell, document and send to dm's.
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on May 2, 2020 9:49:12 GMT -5
Buffing Lower levels is tricky. depending on the rp, A'zu'ra will buff a lower. She limits to one casting. She gives them a choice of either, bulls, endurance or cats. These are readily available in potions I am aware ,but adventurers are short on funds. I do not advertise come to Az for free buffs.
To say to stop it entirely is infringing on someone's rp. You may not wish to aid which is fine but maybe the person casting has it in their character and story line. If you think someone is maybe using too many or too high of a spell, document and send to dm's.
This isn't intended to be an infringement on RP, it's just against the rule and always has been. Rule #9. Do not exploit the game's mechanics or cheatTaken from the FRC's rule thread here on the boards... " Excessive Buffing" can take place when a higher level character buffs a lower level one who is going off alone or in a separate party. Limit the buffs to one or two spells of a spell level and benefit on par with the recipient's level. For example, a high level cleric wishing to provide buffs to a low level fighter shouldn't provide Deathward or Greater Magic Weapon. Deathward is beyond a low level character's ability to cast and a high level GMW spell provides a numeric benefit beyond low level capability. Keep it reasonable to one or two low powered buffs. As for the question @steelgrin asked about scrolls, there is the gold cost associated with scrolls, potions, etc. We don't really want to see people running through lower level dungeons with +5 buffed weapons and stuff but if the lower level somehow managed to save up the money and wanted to purchase them then so be it. With scrolls and other things there is a trade off that takes place and gold is required so the player is having to make some kind of sacrifice, it's not just a free ride.
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Post by Church of Bane on May 2, 2020 10:17:44 GMT -5
This is a good rule to follow.
If low level characters are looking for strength they only need to join us as He will provide it. *evil grin*
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Post by MTGPackFoils on May 2, 2020 10:22:05 GMT -5
If the spell in question is beyond 2nd level it probably should not be cast honestly. Most adventurers below 5th level probably can't afford anything beyond a scroll, or casting of that level from an NPC in pen and paper. It just makes sense when you think about it.
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Post by Munroe on May 2, 2020 16:54:15 GMT -5
In keeping with the D&D rules, characters could charge for buffs. The standard D&D3.5e rules for hired spellcasting (generally from an NPC in the table setting) are spell level X caster level X 10 gp. (5 gp for cantrips.) I've done that formula in the past with my cleric of Lathander. I generally use minimum caster level if the spell doesn't scale in NWN at all (either in duration or effect). As a Lathanderite, she will cast restoration effects for free if a debuff (such as ability drain, curse, or level drain) were received fighting undead though. Also, free lesser restorations on people wisdom-drained, sometimes without their consent, because wisdom-drained characters negatively impact everyone around them. So, for instance, my level 11 cleric (multi-classed) could cast Greater Magic Weapon on someone but it would cost 4*11*10gp = 440 gp for the casting. I know other classes get Greater Magic Weapon as a level 3 spell, not a level 4 spell, but that would actually mean getting a bard/paladin/wizard/sorcerer to cast it at the same caster level (11 in our example) would cost less. (Yes, I know that's more than it costs to make a scroll. NWN GMW scroll pricing is wonky--scrolls should scribe at minimum caster level or have a scaling price option for available caster level of the scribe.) But, for instance, if my cleric were casting Neutralize Poison, an instantaneous level 4 cleric spell that does not scale with caster level in NWN, I would charge 4*7*10=280 gp because that is assuming the minimum caster level of 7. Despite the fact that the NWN game engine just gives spellcasters X spells/day that they can cast, and they're replenished on rest, which is nearly instantaneous for a small gp cost, the spells they're casting should be treated with some respect. Prepared casters have to spend 1 hour every day memorizing those spells or praying for them. For arcanists, that's after 8 hours of rest and for clerics they generally have a set time of day to pray--Lathanderites and Sunite at dawn, for instance. Even spontaneous casters have to take the 8 hour rest even if they don't have to prepare for an hour afterward. Rest is not 8 hours in-game because we're not playing a game like Animal Crossing where you can only do so much a day and have to come back tomorrow, but it should be treated with more weight then "Hol' up a minute, let me go prepare that for ya..." In the case of clergy, they've prayed to their gods for all their magic, and to use it without giving it proper weight is disrespectful. Charging for spellcasting as a cleric might seem like it wouldn't be something your good-aligned cleric would do, but on the other hand, that spellcasting is only rent-to-own and the cleric is expected to use it responsibly or have it repossessed. While they're on loan from a good god, that's still a cosmic being that needs worshipers and for existing worshipers to gather resources to expand the faith. To use a phrase apart from its usual sexual context, "why pay for the cow when you can get the milk for free?" So you know, if you're going to cast spells on characters, remember that even low level spells aren't without worth to your character. At the minimum, as arcane spellcasters, the characters took the time our of their day to select them when they prepared spells. (Do you think some high level arcanists don't even bother with selecting level 1 spells anymore? It's possible. Though technically, any spells that weren't cast just remain prepared so it's not like they have to prepare them again if they didn't use them.) Anyway, I'm kind of rambling. I still recommend the spell level X caster level X 10 gp (5 gp for cantrips) solution of the Player's Handbook, adjusted appropriately to minimum caster level for spells with no scaling caster level effects.
But that's just my thought. It deals with the idea that characters wouldn't be able to afford the buffs simply by making them pay for the buffs.
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Post by kasama on May 2, 2020 17:52:42 GMT -5
For healing like restos.. Kas makes them swear allegiance to Glittergold. If they think its a joke then that covers the Glittergold dogma. If they take it serious then that covers cost. As for buffs, can't say. She doesn't make a habit of buffing strangers and non-strangers RP the need for the spell.
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Post by Innovation on May 3, 2020 14:49:47 GMT -5
Yes even I have been guilty of Buffing Lower levels when they stand in town for hours, unable to go it alone, but also no levels appropriate to theirs to join. I keep in mind of Character levels, only use magic weapon, no greater. protection from evil without excessively making them able to go at it for hours by themselves, and I rest before logging out to take them away. My buffs do not last long, but to long for a lower level and I keep it in mind. If they are low I give them buffs only a low level cleric would be able to give. Str or Cat PfE MW. I however will be more critical on it now that it is brought up. I get why its frowned upon, i merely feel bad for a person on the other side of the World to log into a server where everyone is asleep and has to go at it alone over and over and over. Charging would be a good option for this. Munroe's way would seem to work the best.
But I do agree, the use of buffs even when I asked how did it go to a person I gave it to made it far to easy to complete something that should have been harder... So consider it from Inno, No more buffs besides like the One to keep with RP. Something you would get from a potion.
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Post by winterglass on May 5, 2020 2:59:17 GMT -5
(Note, not at all disagreeing with the OP about overly-high-level buffs being verboten here. Just about other posts on the thread.)
Buffs in particular, I can see being payable for, particularly for some deities.
However, the thing in the 3.5e rulebook is a typical example of WOTC being overly mechanistic and transactional about something that should be special and meaningful. The power of the gods, yeah, sure, it's not to be taken lightly, but to many faiths, hiring it out for coin would be taking it appallingly lightly. You are a priest and an agent of your god, not a damn taxi-cab.
So, read up on the faiths and have your priest act accordingly, with reasonable adjustments for balance only, would be my thinking here.
A Waukeenite charging for healing? Yeah, I can absolutely see that. Life is transactional. The flowing of coin brings prosperity to all, and engaging in reasonable trade is an act of virtue.
An Ilmatari charging for healing? No, absolutely not, and if you read the dogma of their faith, I'd expect them to get a hell of a side-eye for even being at all choosy about who they heal, or for making any demands for it.
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Post by Southpaw on May 5, 2020 7:23:04 GMT -5
Healing isn’t buffs. So far as game balance etc., a character can heal from 1 hp to full health for the price of a strawberry from a bush in the woods and a walk to a resting spot in the woods. Healing is purely for the sake of role play. Most characters don’t roll out of bed with GMW and stoneskin in effect.
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Post by winterglass on May 5, 2020 7:33:10 GMT -5
Healing is purely for the sake of role play. I'd also count restorations, cure disease etc, as part of healing.
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Post by sleepy on May 26, 2020 17:26:40 GMT -5
I could go for a free hamburger lol. i love what i see here. there is a lot of information to read, but im not sure how much i need to know. i logged in today for the 1st time today, got hungry then was worked over by some goblins, died and then was reduced to 1 xp. tough goings without a weapon lol. i was able to at least figure out where i was born and selected a deity (Osiris). i Suppose i should post my character thread next in the forums. it's been a while since i played NWN, but i am very excited to get going here.
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Post by oldfog on Jun 6, 2020 1:39:52 GMT -5
If low level characters are looking for strength they only need to join us as He will provide it. *evil grin*
This is actually a fair point, how about low level characters in the same guild? Say I have an apprentice and I would like to train that person to grow and develop within our guild I follow the character around to observe while he/she fight and I use spells to ward and protect the character? Would that be alright?
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Post by malclave on Jun 6, 2020 1:56:39 GMT -5
I'm sure a DM will probably weigh in, but IMO that's probably even worse. Not only is the low level character getting the long-term buffs, but might also be getting shorter duration spells and a high level character there to rescue them if they bite off more than they can chew.
That assumes, or course, that they are not grouped. If they ARE grouped, go for it, though if outside a 10-level range there won't be any xp from kills and placeables cannot be looted. Still, it is good for an RP exercise of what you mention. Oghrann does just that nearly every week to promote cameraderie, selecting dungeons that give quest xp so there's at least that much gained.
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Post by Munroe on Jun 6, 2020 15:01:48 GMT -5
If low level characters are looking for strength they only need to join us as He will provide it. *evil grin*This is actually a fair point, how about low level characters in the same guild? Say I have an apprentice and I would like to train that person to grow and develop within our guild I follow the character around to observe while he/she fight and I use spells to ward and protect the character? Would that be alright? I'm sure a DM will probably weigh in, but IMO that's probably even worse. Not only is the low level character getting the long-term buffs, but might also be getting shorter duration spells and a high level character there to rescue them if they bite off more than they can chew. That assumes, or course, that they are not grouped. If they ARE grouped, go for it, though if outside a 10-level range there won't be any xp from kills and placeables cannot be looted. Still, it is good for an RP exercise of what you mention. Oghrann does just that nearly every week to promote cameraderie, selecting dungeons that give quest xp so there's at least that much gained.
As malclave says, If a higher level character is traveling with a lower level character and buffing them (or not even buffing them--they're still acting as a safety net should something happen), they should be in the party with the low-level character and, in keeping with the level restriction rules, the party should not be looting placed loot containers if the level gap is more than 10 levels. (You should still loot the bodies of fallen enemies as this removes the item to the character inventory and helps improve server performance.)
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Post by appleseedy on Jun 25, 2020 7:51:49 GMT -5
i remember playing a cleric of Grumbar who would demand precious gems as an offering for any spells he was expected to cast. Made a great show of crushing them with a hammer and praying
Is there anyway to nerf Flame weapon/GMW/Keen scrolls so they are produced at CL 5?
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Post by maeglhachel on Jun 25, 2020 7:59:20 GMT -5
Is there anyway to nerf Flame weapon/GMW/Keen scrolls so they are produced at CL 5? BOOOO ... **searches dislike button* Maybe, an alternative crafting mechanism that allows crafting wands / scribing scrolls at different levels ... IF you have at least that caster level. That way a lvl 3 wizard couldn't scribe lvl 17 scrolls? I know of servers that have that in place.
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Post by malclave on Jun 25, 2020 8:00:02 GMT -5
What would be the purpose of a CL 5 scroll of GMW? A regular Magic Weapon scroll would be cheaper, just as strong (+1), and last twice as long.
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Post by appleseedy on Jun 25, 2020 8:12:42 GMT -5
What would be the purpose of a CL 5 scroll of GMW? A regular Magic Weapon scroll would be cheaper, just as strong (+1), and last twice as long. sort of like magic vestment scrolls? well i agree but then again +5 enchantment from scroll might be too much
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Post by Dimitri on Jun 25, 2020 10:21:51 GMT -5
I would very much wish for scrolls to remain as they are. If people are willing to spend gold on purchasing them, that's them paying for them and are capable of using them, all for it. Let's not count buying scrolls/potions as buffing lowbies and stick to that discussion, instead.
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Post by coronenko on Jun 25, 2020 12:04:06 GMT -5
Scrolls and potions are way far from buffing and i don't think they should be nerfed at all, as life for an item crafter (merchant mostly, but non merchants also) as some potions and wands are way more expensive in crafting price than in store price (i.e. Bull's potions or healing wands)
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Post by Sioladuil on Jun 25, 2020 12:12:28 GMT -5
Loool
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Post by Peter Goezinya on Jun 25, 2020 18:34:35 GMT -5
I sometimes curse players with an item before they adventure, is this considered buffing them?
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Post by malclave on Jun 25, 2020 20:11:46 GMT -5
I sometimes curse players with an item before they adventure, is this considered buffing them? Probably doesn't count as "buffing", but might be twinking depending on the item.
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Post by Peter Goezinya on Jun 25, 2020 20:59:13 GMT -5
It's Lloth's spider token. It allows you to cast curse once per day. It's my favorite buff to share with the party.
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