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Post by lucid on Sept 9, 2019 8:11:32 GMT -5
Some insight into this thing we do.
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Post by Razgriz on Sept 9, 2019 23:22:45 GMT -5
Give us piercing resistant heavy armor.
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Eldok
Proven Member
Atonement is the way
Posts: 216
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Post by Eldok on Sept 10, 2019 6:59:02 GMT -5
Immunity rather
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Post by lucid on Sept 10, 2019 8:25:43 GMT -5
It's only immune in the chest. Don't forget that Gut Shot Crit!
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crawlingchaos63
New Member
he that dont expect nothin'... wont ever be dissapointed
Posts: 42
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Post by crawlingchaos63 on Sept 10, 2019 8:43:17 GMT -5
I watched a show where they recreated a fullplate for jousting and it would absorb a bullet from a flintlock and arrows, but as stated, only in the chest area
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Post by Razgriz on Sept 10, 2019 9:08:31 GMT -5
This only makes it more clear how armor in D&D is just badly done. It should decrease the damage taken or absorb it instead of the user. Arbitrary AC numbers are meh.
Edit: We could add some immunity % to all armors though.
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Post by lucid on Sept 10, 2019 9:09:55 GMT -5
I watched a show where they recreated a fullplate for jousting and it would absorb a bullet from a flintlock and arrows, but as stated, only in the chest area
This video shows improved performance for case-hardened arrowheads. Hardness matters, it just isn't a silver bullet, to mix metaphors tragically. Black powder loads were invariably lead shot, which deforms greatly against a harder steel target, losing energy. However they had a chance of penetrating it on the order of 1:10, even so. The arrows have like 1:1000 for that. There is definitely a reason that horribly inaccurate muskets were adopted in favor of longbows. But remember that most of these decisions look very different in Army vs Army. Accuracy is not a big deal if you just have to be one of a thousand guys filling the air with lead in the direction of an unstoppable moving wall of armor and meat. I saw another video of breastplate vs modern armor in a trial by arrow and by modern weapons. The thickest breastplate was butter to modern weaponry, a .223 round pierced it easily, the .308 didn't even notice it was there. Ceramic plates stopped both ammo's cold, but probably at the cost of broken ribs. edit: Found it! A bit chatty but you can skip to the good bits.
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Post by Lady Frost on Sept 10, 2019 10:16:32 GMT -5
This only makes it more clear how armor in D&D is just badly done. It should decrease the damage taken or absorb it instead of the user. Arbitrary AC numbers are meh. Edit: We could add some immunity % to all armors though. I hate how armor AC works!
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Post by ID10Tango on Sept 10, 2019 10:23:44 GMT -5
There's a show on Netflix (depending on your Region) that covered this as well. The guys wanted to make a full set of plate armor the old way, starting with the ore. It took a large quantity of (something) to get a small amount of steel, and the breastplate is mostly all one piece...except around the chest area where it appeared to be layered steel for added thickness and defense. Everything else was a single thin layer of steel.
I'll try to find the show and post an update here...
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crawlingchaos63
New Member
he that dont expect nothin'... wont ever be dissapointed
Posts: 42
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Post by crawlingchaos63 on Sept 10, 2019 16:30:22 GMT -5
Ah Tango watched that too, that was what I was talking about but I couldn't find it on youtube its pretty interesting to see the armor from ore to finished.... and that its so durable and resistant
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Post by ID10Tango on Sept 10, 2019 17:50:03 GMT -5
There's a show on Netflix (depending on your Region) that covered this as well. The guys wanted to make a full set of plate armor the old way, starting with the ore. It took a large quantity of (something) to get a small amount of steel, and the breastplate is mostly all one piece...except around the chest area where it appeared to be layered steel for added thickness and defense. Everything else was a single thin layer of steel. I'll try to find the show and post an update here... "Secrets of the Shining Knight" - 52min
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Post by lucid on Sept 11, 2019 7:44:58 GMT -5
This only makes it more clear how armor in D&D is just badly done. It should decrease the damage taken or absorb it instead of the user. Arbitrary AC numbers are meh. Edit: We could add some immunity % to all armors though. Need a Hit Location chart to really make it sync up.
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Post by ID10Tango on Sept 11, 2019 9:30:28 GMT -5
How exactly do you perceive the AC vs AB in FRC? Couldn't it be interpreted that a miss was either a full miss or a deflection, and a hit causes some sort of damage depending on the weapon (slashing, bludgeoning, piercing, etc)?
I could be mistaken but it sounds a little like wanting to be able to take a hit but not take damage...?
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Post by Razgriz on Sept 11, 2019 10:53:54 GMT -5
How exactly do you perceive the AC vs AB in FRC? Couldn't it be interpreted that a miss was either a full miss or a deflection, and a hit causes some sort of damage depending on the weapon (slashing, bludgeoning, piercing, etc)? I could be mistaken but it sounds a little like wanting to be able to take a hit but not take damage...? Take a hit but with reduced damage. Not expecting 100% immunity, but some yes.
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Post by Always_a_hero on Sept 11, 2019 11:09:40 GMT -5
I think the definition of AC depends on the main type of AC your character has. If you have low dex and heavy armor, you will be taking hits which the armor will block, a bit like a shield would. Having high dex and light/no armor would result in the AC being related to dodge or deflecting.
However I believe there's already a disbalance when it comes to armors, the numbers being clear what someone should wear to have a maximum AC - being 9 with either a 1/8 padded armor (unless you have a 9+ dex modifier) or an 8/1 full plate. Next comes the 8 AC armors, being 2/6 leather, 4/4 chain shirt and 7/1 half plate. Then the rest at 7 AC. So having full plates already at the top in terms of non-enchanted armor is already a plus in my opinion which might already reflect partly the point of the arguments saying: a full plate is pretty protective. That being said, when we come back to the interpretation of AC vs AB in the case of arrow vs full plate, the AB would be the archer aiming at a place where the plates aren't protecting the wearer. So when the wearer is hit, technically it's because the arrow didn't hit the armor, but found a way "around" it.
When you think of it that way, giving a %resistance vs a damage type wouldn't make much sense, since you're not aiming at the armor to begin with. Furthermore, we have to also consider how piercing damage is not limited to arrows- as the most efficient weapon against a full plate would be either a hammer (bending the plate) or a warpick (impact on a very low surface area to pierce through the plate), this later also being piercing. Then we're more talking about making a %immunity to arrow damage, which simply ain't a thing with the system as far as I know.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2019 11:27:25 GMT -5
Meh. Too much to keep track of IMO when it comes to a PnP game. Always A Hero is absolutely correct as well. In the high middle ages, armored combatants tended to use axes, maces, and hammers when fighting. A sword was more often than not a sidearm.
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Post by Razgriz on Sept 11, 2019 11:48:49 GMT -5
I think the definition of AC depends on the main type of AC your character has. If you have low dex and heavy armor, you will be taking hits which the armor will block, a bit like a shield would. Having high dex and light/no armor would result in the AC being related to dodge or deflecting. However I believe there's already a disbalance when it comes to armors, the numbers being clear what someone should wear to have a maximum AC - being 9 with either a 1/8 padded armor (unless you have a 9+ dex modifier) or an 8/1 full plate. Next comes the 8 AC armors, being 2/6 leather, 4/4 chain shirt and 7/1 half plate. Then the rest at 7 AC. So having full plates already at the top in terms of non-enchanted armor is already a plus in my opinion which might already reflect partly the point of the arguments saying: a full plate is pretty protective. That being said, when we come back to the interpretation of AC vs AB in the case of arrow vs full plate, the AB would be the archer aiming at a place where the plates aren't protecting the wearer. So when the wearer is hit, technically it's because the arrow didn't hit the armor, but found a way "around" it. When you think of it that way, giving a %resistance vs a damage type wouldn't make much sense, since you're not aiming at the armor to begin with. Furthermore, we have to also consider how piercing damage is not limited to arrows- as the most efficient weapon against a full plate would be either a hammer (bending the plate) or a warpick (impact on a very low surface area to pierce through the plate), this later also being piercing. Then we're more talking about making a %immunity to arrow damage, which simply ain't a thing with the system as far as I know. Those are fair points. Mostly, I just dislike how the game engine makes it look either as if the character dodged the strike (which makes sense for those wihtout armor) or the opponent *missed* it. At times there are parry animations, but these become rare as more attacks need to be calculated in a round or even less time.
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Post by lucid on Sept 11, 2019 12:21:18 GMT -5
You know, originally, the very concept of Hit Points included a lot of those glancing blows and near-misses. You could take 20 hp and not shed a drop of blood, so long as you had 100 more to burn through. It's only with time that it's become as it apparently is seen now, that losing 10 HP to an arrow at 200 HP means you can get gut-shot with 19 more arrows before you're down. That's not really how it was meant to be. Nobody can actually take 19 of those, man. Boromir with three in him can't even stand up. Originally, "wearing down your hit points" was a sign of you getting tired, your luck is running out, your deity can't intervene anymore without the other gods yelling at her, etc...until only the last couple strikes did "real damage".
AC is somewhat similar. It is not a designation of "what does it take to hit you", although that is one of its concerns. More accurately, it is a designation of "what does it take to damage you."
Rather than resistance, which lowers the damage, you could just have more hit points. Maybe Plate Armor should add Con.
Anyway rather than saying "hit points are unrealistic", a better assessment is "assuming hit points to be fluid ounces of blood rather than an overall measure of your combat stamina is unrealistic".
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Post by malclave on Sept 11, 2019 12:22:06 GMT -5
Meh. Too much to keep track of IMO when it comes to a PnP game. Not necessarily. Chaosium's Runequest had mechanics where armor and shields absorbed damage instead of preventing hits. It also has rules for parrying attacks, as well as hit locations. On the other hand, there were no character levels, so your total hit points didn't change much (if at all) as the campaign went on.
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Post by Always_a_hero on Sept 11, 2019 13:15:49 GMT -5
I wouldn't fully agree with the HP argument, however it does come down to the interpretation.
The way I would understand a character's hit point is firstly related to their class(es), as a fighter type would have more HPs than a caster type. Althought the statement that you can't take 19 arrows in the guts remains true- I would suggest fighter types have a better experience with just that: fighting. And knowing how to fight includes an important factor: knowing how to take a hit, which would be my own definition of HP.
Even though you could argue Barbarians have the most of it without necessarely thinking about it, it would become second nature with practice, compared to a wizard taking a fist to the nose in a brawl. This knowledge/reflex would eventually lead to how to use an armor/shield to take a hit, which is already reflected in game by the armor/shield proficiencies. The armor itself wouldn't be the main factor regarding taking more/less hits, but rather knowing how to use it to it's full extents (an example would be grabbing the opponent's sword with a plated gauntlet or parrying with the forearm plate).
Losing HP would thus certainly be taking a hit, the amount being determined on how well the opponent hits or/and how well the target received the hit, with an armor he sees most suited for his fighting style. The quality of the armor would later decide how well ot protects full from a hit if used to block.
My conclusion would be, a full plate can be just as good of an armor as any other. Yes it can block an arrow, but you could just as well make it nearly impossible for the archer to hit you with dodge and rolls or sprinting to cover with a lighter armor.
I think their are well enough where they are at the moment. One thing I could see be done is change the other armors dex to armor AC ratios so they would all give 9 AC in the end, where the choice fits the wearer's cpmbat style.
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Post by hellscream123 on Sept 11, 2019 21:30:37 GMT -5
First off. COOL. Ahem.
Alrighty. As a fighter in these kinda suits in my spare time here's some notes.
Tempered english civil war plate could stop bullets of the time and can almost stop rounds today. It had to proofed by getting the suit shot at lethal range before you buy it.
AC as a system irks me purely because your hp describes it's effect better. See full plate harness is multiple padded layers. A full mail hauberk. Then plating. Armor wise it sure as hell did reduce damage to 0 unless you used dedicated efforts to circumvent it. But if you're both fresh in clean armor. The first few blows even inthe right spots (short of srabbing the eyes) is going to get stopped and just whittle the defences.
Swords were weapons of honour and thusly all fought with them. The trick is to stab the gaps or pull draw cuts to make the blade bite past the armor. Also Estoc and Tuck. Cool weapons.
A "true" armor system in my mind would have Resistance that deteriorates with use. Per limb ac/Resistance ratios. Armor stacking. Per weapon to armor type effectiveness. And wound to skill penalties.
The issue is d&d is a game that doesn't have the mechanisms to support this without large overhaul. (Not to mention it'd make monsters a real knightmare)
Armor thusly serves easier as magic bubble of non damaging hits and hp as your endurance to roll and twist with them when they land as a telling blow. To minimize damage and hero power through it.
Seriously though wear a helmet. Your Fullplate means spit if I can stab your face.
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