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Post by Dobian on Feb 15, 2019 13:40:12 GMT -5
The conventional wisdom that players leveling "too fast" will make the server top heavy is misguided. A player who moves up fairly quickly is much more likely to make a new character and start again than a player who moves up more slowly and just stays on the same character as they grind up through the higher levels. Most players on here who have a super epic also have at least one lower level character. I cover every level from 1-40 with my characters.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Feb 15, 2019 14:13:42 GMT -5
The conventional wisdom that players leveling "too fast" will make the server top heavy is misguided. A player who moves up fairly quickly is much more likely to make a new character and start again than a player who moves up more slowly and just stays on the same character as they grind up through the higher levels. Most players on here who have a super epic also have at least one lower level character. I cover every level from 1-40 with my characters. this right here.
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trauson
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Post by trauson on Feb 15, 2019 14:28:40 GMT -5
The thing is also the tokens require a bigger level of attention whit every Dm . More for everyone but also makes thing stagnate as well. Due sometimes taking a long time to achieve results and modt of the time just characters jumping in every Dm quest to get more credits for their character advancement. Even if the character would not get involved in that kind of situations. But also it can happen whit this. I think that for now i see no bigger issues whit this system. You work hard for your reward and you take your time.
Also as said... i am a grinder and my job is kind of flexible so i can enjoy my life as well. I have a couple of hours in the morning to dedicate to grind and in the late night early morning i have time to do my rp + going to party
But in the end we are all here to rp... some people enjoy being powerful and mighty and cuddle around lvls of Elminster and demigods.
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abby
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Post by abby on Feb 15, 2019 14:34:58 GMT -5
World of war craft can handle level ranges like that. Not sure NWN can. I can assure you servers can cater to lvl 40s was on a few rp servers that were 40 cap n high xp gain. It can be done on a rp server to cater to epics. Also on my time on LOD a pvp server that also catered to lvl 40s. So when one says NwN cannot that's a bold lie. I mean not to be technical here but wouldn’t a “bold lie” mean that I secretly think NWN is a great platform for huge power gaps and the game is enriched for having 40 levels instead of 20, but I’m hiding that opinion and telling people I think there aren’t enough players at most times to effectively handle the spread without causing server death? I pretty promise I’m not lying, I just don’t agree. There are a couple servers that I really think can handle it okay, and even here, at this moment, it’s not to bad because of EE, but I’ve been playing this game for a very long time, and I’ve seen a lot of servers experience that long slow atrophy where they can’t retain new players so they just sort of stagnate with a very high level regular player base. Really I think the fellow who said fast xp makes for faster character turn-around makes a solid point, but that’s a tough one. I’ve played on places where you get fast xp, but you don’t get the same level of character development and I think FRC’s slows pace makes a higher quality of roleplaying. Though the best I’ve seen was the e8 with perma death. That RP was “too” real, but incredible.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 14:35:11 GMT -5
I bet donuts to dollars, the only reason people were going to these high level XP reward places was JUST for the quest reward. I'm just going to leave this here. Game on people .
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trauson
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Post by trauson on Feb 15, 2019 14:43:26 GMT -5
I bet donuts to dollars, the only reason people were going to these high level XP reward places was JUST for the quest reward. I'm just going to leave this here. Game on people .
To be honest. In my grinding mentality i would do the same. Im going to go to places where the reward is good and the challenge is not abusive. There is no point on killing dragons for their xp if the dragon is not going to be a good monetary investment (my paladin is going to go anyways... Death to all evil dragons those who support them and who praise tiamat)... im nearly expending all my earnings in healing items even going to negative sometimes.
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Post by Lady Frost on Feb 15, 2019 14:47:25 GMT -5
The conventional wisdom that players leveling "too fast" will make the server top heavy is misguided. A player who moves up fairly quickly is much more likely to make a new character and start again than a player who moves up more slowly and just stays on the same character as they grind up through the higher levels. Most players on here who have a super epic also have at least one lower level character. I cover every level from 1-40 with my characters. Really I think the fellow who said fast xp makes for faster character turn-around makes a solid point, but that’s a tough one. I’ve played on places where you get fast xp, but you don’t get the same level of character development and I think FRC’s slows pace makes a higher quality of roleplaying. Though the best I’ve seen was the e8 with perma death. That RP was “too” real, but incredible. What Abby says was going to be my response. I don't want players blowing through levels to get epic and then to start over. I want players to pick a character and play that character for years and years. One of the biggest issues I have on Zoe is that, other than a small core group of high levels around her, her new allies and underlings show up for a year then disappear. I'm soo tired of building a relationship with a character to then have the player quit and start another character. Very few players can RP in-depth stories, backgrounds and personalities with more than one or two different characters at once. I'm not one of those players either. Many characters don't get the attention they deserve and the RP suffers for it. I'd much much rather see players pick one character can play them consistently, slowly working up through the levels, building relationships (allies and enemies), and creating a story, not getting to 20 and starting over every 6 months.
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trauson
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Post by trauson on Feb 15, 2019 15:03:27 GMT -5
I support Zodika... the problem is as well many people gets discouraged of being too powerful. I might be a loner most of the time but i appreciate having characters to interact whit. For positive and negative rp. I usually get bored of stay idle on the main city whidout doing much. In the end i cant just rely on pve content all the time
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tirelesstracker
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Post by tirelesstracker on Feb 15, 2019 20:02:17 GMT -5
I bet donuts to dollars, the only reason people were going to these high level XP reward places was JUST for the quest reward. I'm just going to leave this here. Game on people .
I guess I'm gonna have to be the one to say it. I can't believe you're using this argument. 'The only reason people go to these places is for the reward'? That's why people do ANY adventuring. There are two forms of reward. XP, and gold. And while dungeon RP can happen, I can assure you that's not why the majority go adventuring. Sure, you're gonna have your 'hardcore RPers contest this, but I can promise you over my decade here I've chatted with more people about trips and how far they were from leveling regarding dungeons than 'hey let's walk through a dungeon and talk more than anything else in this super dangerous place where we can lose our precious xp.'
If there was no reward, GG would be overpopulated fast. This server would be Second Life: NWN edition. Stand around at chat. Of-frickin'-course the only reason people do things is for the reward.
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Eldok
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Post by Eldok on Feb 15, 2019 20:35:08 GMT -5
I'm just going to leave this here. Game on people .
I guess I'm gonna have to be the one to say it. I can't believe you're using this argument. 'The only reason people go to these places is for the reward'? That's why people do ANY adventuring. There are two forms of reward. XP, and gold. And while dungeon RP can happen, I can assure you that's not why the majority go adventuring. Sure, you're gonna have your 'hardcore RPers contest this, but I can promise you over my decade here I've chatted with more people about trips and how far they were from leveling regarding dungeons than 'hey let's walk through a dungeon and talk more than anything else in this super dangerous place where we can lose our precious xp.'
If there was no reward, GG would be overpopulated fast. This server would be Second Life: NWN edition. Stand around at chat. Of-frickin'-course the only reason people do things is for the reward.
You got the best arguments mate haha
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tirelesstracker
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Post by tirelesstracker on Feb 15, 2019 20:38:16 GMT -5
It's all about risk vs. reward, man. And the people upstairs just don't seem to be getting that. And now the reward is less than just killing a swarm of gobs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 20:59:13 GMT -5
I'm just going to leave this here. Game on people .
I guess I'm gonna have to be the one to say it. I can't believe you're using this argument. 'The only reason people go to these places is for the reward'? That's why people do ANY adventuring. There are two forms of reward. XP, and gold. And while dungeon RP can happen, I can assure you that's not why the majority go adventuring. Sure, you're gonna have your 'hardcore RPers contest this, but I can promise you over my decade here I've chatted with more people about trips and how far they were from leveling regarding dungeons than 'hey let's walk through a dungeon and talk more than anything else in this super dangerous place where we can lose our precious xp.'
If there was no reward, GG would be overpopulated fast. This server would be Second Life: NWN edition. Stand around at chat. Of-frickin'-course the only reason people do things is for the reward.
Some dungeons were too "convenient due to their location and high XP rewards". The Dracolich and the WW-Tower were the worst offenders, actually. If anything, at least the Drow tower was somewhat remote, but (mass)teleport makes that a moot point too.
I am going to disagree. XP and gold are ony part of the "reward". The journey itself and the experience of "enjoying the ride" with their party some would consider the reward as well. Maybe we should instead just build emtpy corridors without placeables or any flavor. Just empty chambers and corridors filled with XP, gold and monsters to kill, with no story whatsoever. Maybe that way you would not be so vocal about it?
RP in dungeons can be the combat itself as well, if the player is dextrous enough to not die while tipying cool battle emotes.
Either way, this was the DM's decision and if they took it, it was because whatever evidence they had clearly demonstrated that a reduction to quest XP was needed in order to preserve the setting, and also as a step in a list of steps to restore FRC to a more RP oriented era. The last 4 years or so, the server was becoming rather RP-lite and there are many players and DMs who share this concern.
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tirelesstracker
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Post by tirelesstracker on Feb 15, 2019 21:09:38 GMT -5
You're free to disagree, but you're wrong. There are dozens of private FRC Discord chats. Dozens. And I'm not going to name any names ore call anyone out, because that's not the point. The point is, people discuss where to go for rewards often. It's not about 'the journey' for most. Most have played here so long that 'the journey' is rereading an old novel for the 500th time. The go and do dungeons, the same dungeons, over and over, for the reward. Until someone introduces them to a new dungeon. And then it gets added to the list. Sure, fun times can be had with groups. Great RP along the way. Sometimes during. It does happen. But if you believe for one second that the majority do not go dungeoning for the reward, you're sorely mistaken and viewing things through the wrong shade of glasses.
As for 'more players that share that concern', the poll numbers are eating you alive in that. This change was not a solution.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 21:18:04 GMT -5
You're free to disagree, but you're wrong. There are dozens of private FRC Discord chats. Dozens. And I'm not going to name any names ore call anyone out, because that's not the point. The point is, people discuss where to go for rewards often. It's not about 'the journey' for most. Most have played here so long that 'the journey' is rereading an old novel for the 500th time. The go and do dungeons, the same dungeons, over and over, for the reward. Until someone introduces them to a new dungeon. And then it gets added to the list. Sure, fun times can be had with groups. Great RP along the way. Sometimes during. It does happen. But if you believe for one second that the majority do not go dungeoning for the reward, you're sorely mistaken and viewing things through the wrong shade of glasses. No, you are wrong.
We can keept this poinltess discussion longer, but it serves no purpose at all. You have your opinions, I have mine.
Oh look at that... 666th post!
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Feb 15, 2019 21:21:10 GMT -5
You're free to disagree, but you're wrong. There are dozens of private FRC Discord chats. Dozens. And I'm not going to name any names ore call anyone out, because that's not the point. The point is, people discuss where to go for rewards often. It's not about 'the journey' for most. Most have played here so long that 'the journey' is rereading an old novel for the 500th time. The go and do dungeons, the same dungeons, over and over, for the reward. Until someone introduces them to a new dungeon. And then it gets added to the list. Sure, fun times can be had with groups. Great RP along the way. Sometimes during. It does happen. But if you believe for one second that the majority do not go dungeoning for the reward, you're sorely mistaken and viewing things through the wrong shade of glasses.
As for 'more players that share that concern', the poll numbers are eating you alive in that. This change was not a solution.
it was a punishment. It's ok others abused it but now. We the community as a whole get the shaft.
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tirelesstracker
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Post by tirelesstracker on Feb 15, 2019 21:27:04 GMT -5
I'm wrong? You got proof these Discord servers don't exist, and that dungeoning for reward isn't one of the single most discussed topic in them? That's weird. As soon as I came back for EE, I got invited to quite a few of them. I've also got skype logs of the exact same types of conversations back from before Discord was a thing ranging from 2014-2016. Oh, and the poll is almost 60% in my favor.
K, man. Whatever you say.
But curious question here. If I'm wrong, how come I've actually got things to back up what I'm saying, and you've just got 'No, you're wrong.'?
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Post by malclave on Feb 15, 2019 21:33:41 GMT -5
Maybe we should instead just build emtpy corridors without placeables or any flavor. Just empty chambers and corridors filled with XP, gold and monsters to kill, with no story whatsoever. I dunno. This is an RP server. Just do a vault wipe, delete all locations past the Welcome Room, and let people RP as much as they want.
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tirelesstracker
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Post by tirelesstracker on Feb 15, 2019 21:36:28 GMT -5
Maybe we should instead just build emtpy corridors without placeables or any flavor. Just empty chambers and corridors filled with XP, gold and monsters to kill, with no story whatsoever. I dunno. This is an RP server. Just do a vault wipe, delete all locations past the Welcome Room, and let people RP as much as they want. The only reason I didn'y reply to this specifically is I thought I already covered it in my first post. People that come here to RP, are gonna RP more than anything else. People that are here to grind, are gonna grind more than anything else. The RPers outweigh the grinders. But sure, shaft the people upholding this mystical 'spirit' of FRC to hit those nasty, evil, bad grinders.
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Post by sergeil on Feb 16, 2019 1:18:19 GMT -5
I’d log onto FRC and be unable to find groups about 70% of the time because no one was in my level range It is first issue. In fact, early DM team had organised muster, where new and old players with their low level characters were gathered to hunt together. DM team became bigger, but quantity of musters became less. Ironic? As I know, it is tunable. There are EE servers, where experience is managed in quite different way. So, I do not see unmanageable issues here.
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Post by sergeil on Feb 16, 2019 1:25:34 GMT -5
--- I plan to visit locations where I faced serious crashes after migration to EE. I hope, everything is fixed and I can hunt everywhere without risk to be trapped into bug. --- Not fixed. I still suffer because crash in mistwood, camp location. Of course, I even will not try to visit Ice Giants fortress. PS: basic post migration work is not done. Sure, it is much simpler to speak about doubtful innovations instead of to do boring and hard work.
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abby
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Post by abby on Feb 16, 2019 1:43:22 GMT -5
Does anyone go to extremely difficult dungeons because its fun and challenging? That's why I go. I don't mind getting XP, but I hate running through damn dungeons when there is no challenge. Its boring. Maybe that's the difference between grinders and RPers? Grinders just want the ex and gp, RPers want the experience of role playing as an adventurer who defies death in dungeons and lives to tell about it. I think the problem role players have with grinders, is that grinders just want to power-up so they're combat machines, and THEN come interact. But it feels cheap. My character Manshin took his lumps as a novice and I played him from a bumbling youth trying to learn how to fence and getting humiliated and beaten all the way to being a master who was among the best swordsmen around. At no point was I ever not actively evolved in trying to shape and be a part of events and rivalries on the server, even if there will villains that were vastly stronger. Manshin had a reputation and a dangerous guy long before he actually was because of role playing.
These days, people I barley get to meet would blow past me and hand Manshin his ass because they grinded like slaves until they were more powerful than him. No wonder the staff would prefer people slow the heck down and come develop their character a little instead of spending day after day creating a soulless build that will eventually emerge and start throwing weight around like a bad-ass once they can't loose in PvP.
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Post by sergeil on Feb 16, 2019 2:12:19 GMT -5
Does anyone go to extremely difficult dungeons because its fun and challenging? That's why I go. I don't mind getting XP, but I hate running through damn dungeons when there is no challenge. Its boring. Maybe that's the difference between grinders and RPers? Grinding and RP it two parts of one coin. As example: You know, that great battle is planned. Big and strong team is gathered, difficult fight and interesting quest. A lot of RP, because best RP is not in GG near INN, but in battle between previous and next fight. You know, that your reward will be not big, because of splitting to big team. Also you know, that your resources (potions, etc) will be drained significantly, because foes will be strong and you have the chance to be out of stock. So, you have to be prepared. You have to collect resources to renew stock, etc. Maybe, you have to order some equipment to not be weakest chain. Grinding is difficult and boring work, but it is required to participate in epic battles.
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Post by malclave on Feb 16, 2019 2:12:27 GMT -5
*Extremely* difficult? No. If I've got to solo anyway, I don't mind being challenged, but I'd prefer to have a better than even chance of success. And if I'm grinding to try to get within level range of a group I CAN get into, I certainly don't want to lose xp by dying.
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Post by sergeil on Feb 16, 2019 2:53:34 GMT -5
In fact, if extremely dangerous hunt mean chance to die 50%, it is necessary to calculate.
In most cases it is applicable on low levels when you earn more as lose.
As example, if in case of win you earn 500 experience, but in case if fail lose 200 (level 2).
Pure mathematics.
In case of probability to die 50%, in series of 2 hunts your chance to win both battles and earn 1000 experience is 0.5*0.5=25%
It means, your probability to die as minimum once in first battle is 50% and 75% in second.
If you win both = 0 + 500+500 = 1000 If you win first = 0 + 500-200 = 300 If you win second = 0 + 500-200 = 300 If you lose both. = 0 - 200-200 = -400
In general, average result I would calculated as sum = +1200 experience. Let's go
The same for level 10
If you win both = 0 + 500+500 = 1000 If you win first = 0 + 500-1000 = -500 If you win second = 0 + 500-1000 = -500 If you lose both. = 0 - 1000-1000 = -2000
Sum = 1000-3000= -2000 Do not do It!!!!
I did not calculated chances a lot of time and by this reason I do not provide it more accurate, sorry.
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Post by sergeil on Feb 16, 2019 3:11:06 GMT -5
Grinding, as I understand, it is hunt where chance do die is near to zero.
In this case reward is very small and, in fact, you just exchange your time to experience. Boring work for small reward.
In fact, a lot of people in real life have boring work for small money. 😊
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trauson
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Post by trauson on Feb 16, 2019 6:25:18 GMT -5
I am going to resume this whit the less amount of words possible:
Unless you are a paladin who must challenge evil and going around. Most adventurers will think about the risk and reward... If the risk is too high and they have nothing to lose on that they wont do anything. So is a valid RP stand to avoid certain dungeons because "is too dangerous"
As for the off site discord groups to strategy around the server and im plenty sure that they meet up come by and grind to their heart content...
Everyone does that now, this is not 2007 2004 2003. Where people barely had messenger
As for now simple : If its not worth it , people are not going to go.
I think that is the sentence that everyone is crying out on this conversation that is going too far now...
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Post by CourtJester on Feb 16, 2019 13:46:17 GMT -5
Risk vs. Reward. Plain and simple.
So much work was put in when Riviors Keep was being built (and I commemorate the staff for that extreme effort). I visited it twice, if memory serves. I'll NEVER go back. The risk of dying is way too high, and xp gain is way too low (pretty sure loot is meh too). My character will often make fun of anyone who is heading there for that very reason - risk vs reward. It's basic economics.
Short dungeons with excellent quest XP were a saving grace for me in my epic level tenure. When I was a lowbie, I used to play on FRC 9 hours a day (oh how we did the grind to epic so fast and caused a @#$%storm on the forums - fond memories). I no longer can play that long. I can't do Underdark runs, Fire Giant runs, Icingdwell runs, Zhent runs, or even Drow Tower runs (most days). That's where the real XP was.
Quest XP has been an "equalizer," establishing a bare minimum XP amount for clearing a dungeon, regardless of the level range between the party. With this change, I can barely justify adventuring with anyone, since they are further punished for associating with a high level PC who really has no value add beyond level 27. The value I offer in a party is the same value a level 27 offers, but I subtract from the party's XP gain because of my level. We get 1 XP per kill regardless. Doesn't matter how difficult the NPC is. What have I received beyond level 27? I get foo-foo bonus feats, a smidgen of extra HP, increased spawn difficulty, but no additional spells. I reduce reward, AND increase risk.
I viewed Quest XP as a Dungeon RP Bonus when a DM is not present. RP in dungeons is some of my favorite RP. The staff has murdered my motivation with this change.
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Post by stryker on Feb 18, 2019 22:36:14 GMT -5
Honestly I think the low XP rewards on server built quests may keep people away from leaving Greatgaunt until they have a party, DM ran event, or guild. Everyone talks about RP RP RP yet I never see people hang out in Dhedluk to “RP” as often as I do Greatgaunt. By making the XP match the difficulty of the quest it gives players incentive to actually explore other areas. Players also need to understand that D&D is a group based game, not a solo adventure game. Once players understand they can get more mileage out of their desire to get XP by waiting in Greatgaunt for stuff to happen then they’ll stop traveling the world, and seeing all of the hard work the build staff has done. I would not only love to be a 40th level character (only 20 now after years of play), but I would love to be one (if not the first) who has completed every NPC quest. Some of the greatest RPGs ever made have a progressive quest system to take characters from the beginning to an ending point where the characters are free to roam on their own. Perhaps that should be looked at more than nerfing XP in an area that gets little to no foot traffic. This. Quests should drive people to explore and work together. If a minority figures out how to somehow solo group content. Why blame the majority. Could also make certaib quesrs have less exp at higher lvls so that they are more worth your time to group up when you are a lower level. I actaully know this one server that has a max lvl 15, but you can buy feats. Yo get a higher "server level" (and eventaully get epic feats while still only being 15 hd. This included feats to increase caster level. As for slowing down heavy grinders, good luck. I had a friend who manages to get max level no matter what he plays in less than a month in any game. This one server where the starting cr 1 monsters literally gave you 1 exp as a lvl 1 character. And he reached max in weeks. You simply can not stop some people. Meanwhile poor saps like me are the kind of people who will never get their in a life time.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Feb 19, 2019 0:16:28 GMT -5
Ok tbh the new tweaks are not as drastic as I thought they were. Some infact are unchanged. From the quests I hit I saw no difference in quest so n gold. But I'm sure the quests that were touched were drastically changed.
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Post by magiuss on Feb 19, 2019 2:31:29 GMT -5
Ok tbh the new tweaks are not as drastic as I thought they were. Some infact are unchanged. From the quests I hit I saw no difference in quest so n gold. But I'm sure the quests that were touched were drastically changed. The smaller quests, is not what people ''concerned'' about, i didn't wanna use a ugly'er word for the posts i've been seeing in here, but the TONE is deffintly getting out of hand. It's the 800 Xp quests that people are getting angry about it seems. so they can't lvl in epic lvls in a short amount of time. Another way to solve this would of course be to ''not'' change the high lvl dungeons..and then change the lower lvl experince to snail speed, so people never get up to epic lvls. This server has always been RP first, ( leveling is a part of that) [Grinding not so much in that spirit] as far as i understand there are plenty of other servers if grinding is your main goal. *shrugs* if all they want is leveling..
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