Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 21:09:04 GMT -5
If you would like to discuss why it is an exploit I suggest making your own thread to continue it. I almost didn't do it but sure, I'll bite, because somehow I feel like I've been accused of cheating. Maybe it's just me, but when I hear "you are exploiting the game mechanics", it sounds like you think I've done something wrong. Who knows, it could be that we just disagree on the meaning of "exploitation" in this context. You'll have to start by explaining exactly what activity you are referring to as exploitation. I'll at least need to understand that much before I can discuss why's and why not's.
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Post by Lady Frost on Jan 24, 2019 0:54:04 GMT -5
Lots of people run then walk when they get close to avoid AOO. I do it. DM characters do it. Pretty much most people do it. Nobody cares that people do it. The End.
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Post by dazza555 on Jan 24, 2019 1:24:39 GMT -5
I think the reasoning behind it being an exploit (not a PNP expert so someone correct me) is that traditionally entering or exiting a threatened zone in front of an enemy regardless of walking or running is meant to trigger an attack of opportunity. For whatever reason ig attacks of opportunity don't fire when your character is walking, they probably should though.
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Jan 24, 2019 1:35:07 GMT -5
My personal opinion is that the attack of opportunity happens when running because that's the games way of equalizing things against a faster moving target, or a target that could otherwise be using their superior speed to kite the other. There is no need to award an attack of opportunity against a walking target because they're "fair game" and this equalizer is simply not needed.
I don't see it as something that is exploitable because if you're running you have the advantage of moving out of their range(and potentially staying outside of it) hence it won't even be possible to take a hit if you're careful. Maybe this is the reason once you allow them to get close enough(if you're still running) they get that attack of opportunity. On the flip side if you are walking into them, then the chances of you being whacked by them are significantly more and the enemy is not awarded an attack of opportunity because that would be unbalanced.
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Post by malclave on Jan 24, 2019 1:42:18 GMT -5
In PnP, IIRC, moving into a threatened square does not provoke an AoO. Moving out does, unless movement is only a 5 foot step (not applicable to NWN) or a Withdraw action (closest thing in NWN would be walking out of combat range).
Walking in combat to avoid AoOs is about as much of an exploit as is equipping a weapon to improve your damage potential.
(edit... is it significant that autocorrupt changed 'weapon' to 'woman' initially?)
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Post by tingly on Jan 24, 2019 1:44:31 GMT -5
In PnP, IIRC, moving into a threatened square does not provoke an AoO. Moving out does, unless movement is only a 5 foot step (not applicable to NWN) or a Withdraw action (closest thing in NWN would be walking out of combat range). Walking in combat to avoid AoOs is about as much of an exploit as is equipping a woman to improve your damage potential.
Hi don't mind me just saving this amazing mistype for posterity.
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Post by malclave on Jan 24, 2019 1:48:28 GMT -5
In PnP, IIRC, moving into a threatened square does not provoke an AoO. Moving out does, unless movement is only a 5 foot step (not applicable to NWN) or a Withdraw action (closest thing in NWN would be walking out of combat range). Walking in combat to avoid AoOs is about as much of an exploit as is equipping a woman to improve your damage potential.
Hi don't mind me just saving this amazing mistype for posterity.
Yeah, I don't know what it is with this Fire tablet... my last one didn't mess up this much. Maybe in this case it's just a Kipling fan... "the female of the species is deadlier than the male."
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Post by Rane on Jan 24, 2019 2:05:08 GMT -5
If you would like to discuss why it is an exploit I suggest making your own thread to continue it. I almost didn't do it but sure, I'll bite, because somehow I feel like I've been accused of cheating. Maybe it's just me, but when I hear "you are exploiting the game mechanics", it sounds like you think I've done something wrong. Who knows, it could be that we just disagree on the meaning of "exploitation" in this context. You'll have to start by explaining exactly what activity you are referring to as exploitation. I'll at least need to understand that much before I can discuss why's and why not's. I did not accuse you of cheating. You're reaching a bit there. My only point, is that you are attempting to discuss the mechanics of the game, when the thread is not judging from that aspect. I created my thread, to gather a general consensus on running. I did not create it to go over the benefit of walking in combat. I've been here for a while, I know how the mechanics work man. And no i'm not attempting to show any sort of malice towards you. I think you need to take a deep breath and relax. As far as attacks of opportunity go, I do believe it is an exploit of the mechanics but not an exploit of the rules. The game does not recognize walking as movement. Therefore Attacks of Opportunity will not happen. You are literally exploiting the mechanics of an old game to aid your character in combat. As far as it being a rule break, that's debatable. As several others have said, I can't think of a single person who "hasn't" walked in combat. So no, I didn't accuse you of cheating, or breaking the rules. I simply stated that walking to avoid attacks of opportunity is an exploit of the game mechanics. Cheers
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Jan 24, 2019 2:36:30 GMT -5
I almost didn't do it but sure, I'll bite, because somehow I feel like I've been accused of cheating. Maybe it's just me, but when I hear "you are exploiting the game mechanics", it sounds like you think I've done something wrong. Who knows, it could be that we just disagree on the meaning of "exploitation" in this context. You'll have to start by explaining exactly what activity you are referring to as exploitation. I'll at least need to understand that much before I can discuss why's and why not's. I did not accuse you of cheating. You're reaching a bit there. My only point, is that you are attempting to discuss the mechanics of the game, when the thread is not judging from that aspect. I created my thread, to gather a general consensus on running. I did not create it to go over the benefit of walking in combat. I've been here for a while, I know how the mechanics work man. And no i'm not attempting to show any sort of malice towards you. I think you need to take a deep breath and relax. As far as attacks of opportunity go, I do believe it is an exploit of the mechanics but not an exploit of the rules. The game does not recognize walking as movement. Therefore Attacks of Opportunity will not happen. You are literally exploiting the mechanics of an old game to aid your character in combat. As far as it being a rule break, that's debatable. As several others have said, I can't think of a single person who "hasn't" walked in combat. So no, I didn't accuse you of cheating, or breaking the rules. I simply stated that walking to avoid attacks of opportunity is an exploit of the game mechanics. Cheers It's not really an exploit though because if you're walking they don't need an AoO against you, you're probably going to get hit or dodge anyway, eitherway they don't need that AoO because you're not a moving threat. If anything it's a smart tactic(not an exploitable tactic) to walk up instead of running. If you're walking up you're giving yourself more time to react to an enemies attack while they're running up to you. If you get an AoO against them that makes sense, ever run at someone only to have them sidestep you completely? They gave themselves the AoO by moving slower(even if they were just sidestepping but I hope you get my point). I don't see this as an exploit, on the contrary, I see this as a neat means to play some strategy into your approach while in combat keeping in mind MOST people won't do this or even think about it.
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perspicacity
Proven Member
Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing. -Dali
Posts: 196
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Post by perspicacity on Jan 24, 2019 2:42:45 GMT -5
The way I see it from my reading of the rules is that running is a 'distracted action' and/or one that can carry one -across- a threatened area, in essence entering and exitting therefore provoking the AoO. Walking into combat isn't exploiting a game mechanic (excepting things like a berzerker who IC -would- charge recklessly) but -participating- in a game mechanic.
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Post by tingly on Jan 24, 2019 3:05:27 GMT -5
Here I thought it was a given that walking while in threat range is our Action-RPG-With-Pause games' equivalent to the 5-foot step. Maybe that's not a given! Learn something every day.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jan 24, 2019 3:08:31 GMT -5
This isn’t exploiting at all. It’s the same as in PnP and real life.
First, an Attack of Oppertunity is exactly what the name implies; a surprise opening that an enemy can take advantage of. In other words you provoke them each time you let your defenses down. Walking represents the PnP 5 step. The reason you don’t provoke AoO while 5 stepping is because your guard is up and you’re being careful. When you’re running, you can’t properly defend yourself, hence the AoO. It is absolutely realistic to walk before entering combat and it’s what you generally see in any sort of fencing or Hema. People may close to each other fast but then they move slow and on their guard once they reach melee range.
It would be cool if there was a charge attack where your AC took a hit for more combat power on the charge attack, like in PnP, though.
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Jan 24, 2019 3:26:48 GMT -5
Yes...okay I'll admit, I got carried away watching these while looking for youtube videos of people walking into combat as opposed to running. I was looking for AoO's hehe
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Post by Southpaw on Jan 24, 2019 6:14:40 GMT -5
My character Calah Cain would definitely approve of being referred to as a woman who is a weapon. She’d think you intelligent and resourceful and invite into her party.
And the five foot step does explain it. Also, because you’re only supposed to provoke upon leaving a threatened square, you shouldn’t draw AoO running into melee unless the enemy has a reach of at least ten feet. If you run through the square ten feet out into the adjacent one, AoO. If he can only reach the square you enter, no AoO. Likewise if you have a reach weapon yourself and stop ten feet away.
The point I’m making is, not only are you not exploiting by walking in, but the game is cheating *you* if it gives the enemy an AoO, if it doesn’t have reach, when you run in. So you’d basically be stopping the enemy from exploiting on you, if it doesn’t have reach.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2019 7:23:30 GMT -5
OK I do understand your "exploit" comment better now at least.
This is the first time I have heard someone say that the game does not recognize walking as movement. Are there any other examples of that in the game mechanics? I'm just wondering where that belief comes from.
In my mind, walking into combat to avoid AoO is just wise tactics. In the other thread, a student of sword fighting stated that it is the most basic tenet in melee training. There are other such things in the same category. I also do not fire ranged weapons in melee so as not to generate AoO. I will not drink a potion for the same reason unless it's needed to stay alive. There's at least one feat that I know of that has the purpose of reducing or eliminating AoO.
I thought I had read somewhere in the game manual about how running in combat will generate AoO. This is what makes me believe that it is an intended feature of the game and not a bug or oversight.
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Post by malclave on Jan 24, 2019 9:18:02 GMT -5
I thought I had read somewhere in the game manual about how running in combat will generate AoO. This is what makes me believe that it is an intended feature of the game and not a bug or oversight. I just checked, and you're right... it does explicitly say running provokes an AoO. It also says "Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: If you move into, within, or out of a threatened area, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. If you are performing a retreat action while moving, you do not provoke an attack of opportunity." So that's a difference from PnP. However, I could not find "retreat action" defined, so presumably that's just walking.
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Post by DOT on Feb 6, 2019 16:01:26 GMT -5
I’d agree that it’s not something I’d consider an exploit with walking vs running to a target. I do the opposite in this scenario, teammate getting pummeled, have my character run around the enemy to get their attention, I provoke an aoo to get them to stop hitting said teammate. It’s kinda like disarm provokes an aoo while imp disarm doesn’t, just part of the game imo. You’re good
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Post by Razgriz on Feb 6, 2019 17:12:26 GMT -5
*Takes note of how they all just went for Knockdown near the end of the first battle.* Yes...okay I'll admit, I got carried away watching these while looking for youtube videos of people walking into combat as opposed to running. I was looking for AoO's hehe :)
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