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Post by Southpaw on Jan 23, 2019 14:03:22 GMT -5
When I used to work at a medieval arms and armor museum, I took Viking style sword fighting classes. The very first thing the instructor told us was not to run into a sword fight. We hadn’t even gotten fully into our protective gear yet, and that principle had already been taught.
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Jan 23, 2019 14:39:43 GMT -5
You gotta run in combat then use detect mode as you get close enough to the enemy to avoid those pesky AoO...
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Post by deadbeatbert on Jan 23, 2019 15:02:22 GMT -5
Just as in real life I run when I gotta run, yo!
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Post by someonehaha on Jan 23, 2019 15:34:46 GMT -5
Running in and out of combat in reality greatly varies between situation, Equipment and training. In Eastern styles of fighting are usually lighter. With more vulnerable arms and armour they often take a careful approach I found. Unless the goal was to blizt with a surprise. I found in heavier armoured combat the situation varied between what the arms and armour of the target was. IN HMB and HEMMA I Found that charging was effect when you faced a target that had swinging based attack motions. Anything with a thrusting weapon required more caution. However a Bullrush which is often used in HMB and With heavily armoured fighters is not considered unwise as long as you know your situation. I Found with Japanese styles they would favour small burstful charges under circumstances. In Chinese styles I learned They would often approach with caution with a empathises on fighting on the true distance. (In short a range that benefits you better. And your target less). I found in the Heavy armoured combat I learned from both HMB and Hemma that your armour and your own arms. And that your targets, heavily decide how you will approach. In some cases you can just run and bully your way around. Because you 'can' trade a blow and come out ontop. In some other cases you might not want too. As from a mma perspective of pure unarmed in the ring do not run. In the streets run only when it means a sense of surprise or you know. Get the the hell outta of a bad situation.
Running in combat in nwn is not at all realistic but if you treat it tactfully I can understand it especially when your in a group fight. Running may save a allies life. As long as you know how to approach your targets range without being in range. Or if that range would even effect you.
As for running out of combat. It all depends what is the ic situation. I like to look at the characters weight load and con modifiers. I Personally think a fort save would make more sense but. *shrug* 3.x made their own rules so what ever. Honestly most pnp rpgs do a awful job at the Fatigue department. Often being lack luster or not at all. I know only a few game systems that actually nailed it. And Sadly dnd is not one of them. I mean in all theory dnd characters have ultimate stamina in combat because you could have a character fight 50 rounds without any save for fatigue but a forced march will require a con save. Because the game system was designed with a epic fantasy theme in mind.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 17:59:04 GMT -5
My patience with walking everywhere on a game is almost non existent so I normally just run around like a little psycho with limitless energy.
From my understanding, running everywhere isn't that favorable here so I limited it to just doing all that in dungeons and in battle. If I did run around at all in town, I'd type up some sort of emote that explains why Fera Elise all of a suddenly zoomed off or why she's zomming through out of nowhere.
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Post by Rane on Jan 23, 2019 18:14:47 GMT -5
Actually, I believe not running to avoid attacks of opportunity is taking advantage of a mechanic and doesn’t apply to this conversation. I’m leaning more towards the rp side of things. I would tend to disagree that it is taking advantage of anything. Attacks of opportunity in this case seem to be an accurate portrayal of the reality of melee combat. Or at least that is the intent of the game developers. Similar to firing a bow with an enemy in melee range. A careful approach to the enemy is a wise tactic, not taking advantage. On the other hand, yes someone may choose to RP the idea of not caring about such things. Maybe they feel the situation warrants the risk, maybe they are in an irrational state of panic, or maybe they are just foolhardy in general. Or maybe their defense trumps the opponents offense in general. Nevertheless, i’m well aware of the game mechanics on nwn. And this thread is more about the rule itself and not how to exploit attacks of opportunity.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 19:37:23 GMT -5
Exploit?
There you go again.
Now you make it sound like cheating.
I think I and most others have already answered about the rule. It's OK to run when it is IC to do so.
The server rule is clearly posted.
Should that rule be changed? Is that what you're on about? IMO no, it seems good as it is.
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Post by Pithirendar on Jan 23, 2019 20:30:13 GMT -5
The rule is clear and was implemented to ensure that the spirit of FRC is not lost.
18. Do not run unless your character has a roleplay reason - Walking is the normal mode of movement for sentient creatures, not running. Running in game means sprinting not jogging, and it is an exertion reserved for times of urgency or excitement. Running/sprinting short distances in the midst of combat, to escape a fire or a disaster, or to greet a long lost friend is acceptable in character behavior. Running/sprinting from encounter to encounter to clear monsters and loot as fast as possible is not acceptable in character behavior.
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Post by Rane on Jan 23, 2019 20:33:03 GMT -5
Exploit? There you go again. Now you make it sound like cheating. I think I and most others have already answered about the rule. It's OK to run when it is IC to do so. The server rule is clearly posted. Should that rule be changed? Is that what you're on about? IMO no, it seems good as it is. If you would like to discuss why it is an exploit I suggest making your own thread to continue it.
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 23, 2019 20:33:20 GMT -5
I can't even run in the welcome room or single-player campaign anymore without feeling wrong! oh man! I have to walk when I play the singler player too
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tirelesstracker
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Post by tirelesstracker on Jan 23, 2019 21:08:33 GMT -5
I....I don't think the spirit of FRC revolves around running, Pithi. If that lone solo player far away from other people is zooming around, I don't think the spirit of FRC, which to my knowledge is role-play, is being affected in the least.
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Post by Muse on Jan 23, 2019 21:19:01 GMT -5
I....I don't think the spirit of FRC revolves around running, Pithi. If that lone solo player far away from other people is zooming around, I don't think the spirit of FRC, which to my knowledge is role-play, is being affected in the least. She didn't say the spirit of FRC revolves around the singular running rule. This running rule is one of many rules that preserves the spirit of FRC and keeps it an immersive role playing server. The rule is there to ensure that people role play their characters and not have them constantly running around in impossible endurance marathons. You're never as alone as you think you may be. You could be being trailed by other PCs, for example, or even more frequently a DM is observing and/or interacting with the area around you as well. Just because you think no one is watching, doesn't mean that no one is watching.
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Post by FlyingMidget on Jan 23, 2019 21:21:43 GMT -5
I....I don't think the spirit of FRC revolves around running, Pithi. If that lone solo player far away from other people is zooming around, I don't think the spirit of FRC, which to my knowledge is role-play, is being affected in the least. The spirit of FRC is to role play your character at all points, regardless of if you believe you're alone or with others, be that completely alone or with someone tailing you or even a DM hidden following your foot steps having been looking for something they could spice to add to immersion. If you're logged in and doing anything on the server it should be done IC while following the server rules, if you're off sprinting, ignoring your characters health and well being, ignoring the terrain that could be slippery or uneven, taking risks they probably wouldn't take, making use of morally questionable summons they wouldn't usually, shopping from shops they wouldn't normally or stealing from sarcophagi that they wouldn't for IC reasons, then regardless of if you're alone or with someone that's against the spirit of the server and the reason these rules had to be specifically outlined.
So with that said, I disagree.
FM.
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tirelesstracker
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Post by tirelesstracker on Jan 23, 2019 21:33:46 GMT -5
In my 10+ years on the server, I've never been tracked, nor have I ever had a DM randomly decide to play with me while I was soloing unless I specifically requested something from them prior. It's been my experience that DM's usually prefer to interact with groups so more people get more out of it.
That said, what I think entirely too many people forget about FRC is this: it is a video game. A video game that follows the rules from a pen and paper game, loosely. A sixteen year old game, at that.
Now, I fully understand 'don't run around like a jackass' in front of people. I get that. It breaks the immersion of others and is rude as hell. But I've flat out seen legit IC running reasons discarded. Example: Battlemage knows how long his spells will last as he prepares outside of a cave. He knows he has exactly so and so many minutes to accomplish this cave, or he'll be forced to retreat. So he moves quickly on his goal to handle this cave while within the duration of his magic.
Now, anyone with a high int is going to be smart enough to play within the bounds of their duration. It's a tactical and intelligent move. But logic be damned here, because RUNNING! Instead people will say 'well you can supplement with potions and scrolls!' Because everyone wants to blow their money on expendables when they can literally bend reality to do what those consumables do themselves.
And as the math was done above, if a PC has a decent enough con,they can run almost indefinitely without consequence to health or comfort.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2019 21:35:21 GMT -5
stealing from sarcophagi that they wouldn't for IC reasons LOL, sorry for branching off, but you provided an opening and I'm taking it. This comment reminds me of a moral dilemma that I've often pondered. Who are you actually taking loot from in different cases? Sometimes it is clear, and sometimes it is not. The first time I had this thought was when playing the OC. In the very beginning, after killing all the weak goblins and skeletons, is it OK to loot the boxes and barrels (making an assumption of good alignment here)? Are you looting the monsters or is it the property of the academy that you are taking? Same thought ocurred to me while killing rats in Greatgaunt. If I take loot from the barrels in the farmhouse after killing the mother rat, am I stealing from the farmer? I wonder how many people consider these things. Yeah people always talk about crypts, but if a deader just jumped out of that coffin and attacked me, am I wrong to take the loot that he left behind? Or does that belong to someone else? Fun to think about anyway.
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Post by grivel on Jan 23, 2019 21:39:59 GMT -5
I run when I eat too much of my wife's chili.
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Post by Muse on Jan 23, 2019 21:43:43 GMT -5
stealing from sarcophagi that they wouldn't for IC reasons LOL, sorry for branching off, but you provided an opening and I'm taking it. This comment reminds me of a moral dilemma that I've often pondered. Who are you actually taking loot from in different cases? Sometimes it is clear, and sometimes it is not. The first time I had this thought was when playing the OC. In the very beginning, after killing all the weak goblins and skeletons, is it OK to loot the boxes and barrels? Are you looting the monsters or is it the property of the academy that you are taking? Same thought ocurred to me while killing rats in Greatgaunt. If I take loot from the barrels in the farmhouse after killing the mother rat, am I stealing from the farmer? I wonder how many people consider these things. Yeah people always talk about crypts, but if a deader just jumped out of that coffin and attacked me, am I wrong to take the loot that he left behind? Or does that belong to someone else? Fun to think about anyway. You're going to want to take that little rabbit hole to a new thread. <3
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Jan 23, 2019 22:19:47 GMT -5
In my 10+ years on the server, I've never been tracked, nor have I ever had a DM randomly decide to play with me while I was soloing unless I specifically requested something from them prior. It's been my experience that DM's usually prefer to interact with groups so more people get more out of it. That said, what I think entirely too many people forget about FRC is this: it is a video game. A video game that follows the rules from a pen and paper game, loosely. A sixteen year old game, at that. Now, I fully understand 'don't run around like a jackass' in front of people. I get that. It breaks the immersion of others and is rude as hell. But I've flat out seen legit IC running reasons discarded. Example: Battlemage knows how long his spells will last as he prepares outside of a cave. He knows he has exactly so and so many minutes to accomplish this cave, or he'll be forced to retreat. So he moves quickly on his goal to handle this cave while within the duration of his magic. Now, anyone with a high int is going to be smart enough to play within the bounds of their duration. It's a tactical and intelligent move. But logic be damned here, because RUNNING! Instead people will say 'well you can supplement with potions and scrolls!' Because everyone wants to blow their money on expendables when they can literally bend reality to do what those consumables do themselves. And as the math was done above, if a PC has a decent enough con,they can run almost indefinitely without consequence to health or comfort. This is actually untrue, by source rules. Standard movement at the local level (which is equivalent to being in a dungeon and not actively fighting) states that a character with over 9 con can run for a minute without issue, and generally could only run for a minute or two before resting for at least a minute. The overland movement rates pretty much say 'A character cannot run for extended periods of time.' A mixture of short-burst running and walking equates to a constant hustle. Edit for more details: A character can hustle for an hour before taking nonlethal damage, though if they continue to hustle beyond that they also take fatigue. This is not represented in NWN. That period of time correlates to the overland rate instead of the local, but if you're effectively hustling for an hour within a dungeon, the effects should be the same. When fatigued, a character cannot charge or run, and takes str/dex penalties. This is all from the 3.5 PHB.
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tirelesstracker
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Post by tirelesstracker on Jan 23, 2019 22:24:09 GMT -5
In combat, my character has enough tumble skill to pass the check with a tower shield, so she’ll run no problem. My previous main has enough hp to ignore an AoO from anything in the game, AND a decent tumble skill. In other areas, I consider constitution, which isn’t as much on most of my characters, so they’ll go half a map and puff out. On my previous main, my character can buff up to 32, which is a point higher than the monster manual gives for a great wyrm red dragon. By PHB running rules, she can run 3 minutes and 12 seconds without making a check, and then has 18 seconds before she can fail a check on a natural one, totalling 3:30 for free. At 35 feet per round (barbarian speed), times four movement gives 140 ft per round, which comes out to 14 seconds for 100 meters, which is right about 1400 meters for free with no chance of failure. At that point, when she starts to actually need a natural 2, then 3, then 4, it doesn't take too many successes before she can finish a 4:00 mile by walking the final stretch. So averaging in a minute of walking every mile, she can basically average four minute miles, which is a full sprint, until a 32 constitution needs to sleep. (A character who can moderate their pace such that it's not just full sprint or walk would just slow down slightly to pace themself and even things out, but the change in speed would be imperceptible to an observer.) Given the time between resets, she can keep running longer than the server itself. (Edited to account for running checks being vs. constitution and not fortitude.)
...Disagree with my post all you like, but again, the math has been done.
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Post by hellscream123 on Jan 23, 2019 23:00:57 GMT -5
The math on a high epic character who's spell durations are so long that you dont need to run anymore to reach from town to dungeon and back to town again at full magical buff.
So your battlemage example has both short durations AND a constitution high enough to perma run???
Also Southpaw assumed fortitude saves. I believe they are constitution saves with a climbing DC per save you pass until you spend -8 hours- resting.
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Post by Southpaw on Jan 23, 2019 23:10:53 GMT -5
The math on a high epic character who's spell durations are so long that you dont need to run anymore to reach from town to dungeon and back to town again at full magical buff. So your battlemage example has both short durations AND a constitution high enough to perma run??? Also Southpaw assumed fortitude saves. I believe they are constitution saves with a climbing DC per save you pass until you spend -8 hours- resting. It's adjusted to be proper.
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tirelesstracker
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Post by tirelesstracker on Jan 23, 2019 23:28:43 GMT -5
You seem surprised to learn there are high con battlemages. How do you believe pale master tanks work?
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Post by hellscream123 on Jan 23, 2019 23:34:16 GMT -5
The math on a high epic character who's spell durations are so long that you dont need to run anymore to reach from town to dungeon and back to town again at full magical buff. So your battlemage example has both short durations AND a constitution high enough to perma run??? Also Southpaw assumed fortitude saves. I believe they are constitution saves with a climbing DC per save you pass until you spend -8 hours- resting. It's adjusted to be proper. Ok but the check goes up in highet increments i believe southpaw. Starting at DC 10 amd the DC doesn't get smaller till you rest. Or was you running with pause brackets to stop the check happening in the first place? Also. No. Not mages with high con. A high con and TINY durations feels imposible baring someone deliberately designing themselves in such a manner. In the event of such a CON score sure. But generally such a time/level outstrips the need for such haste. No?
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tirelesstracker
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Post by tirelesstracker on Jan 23, 2019 23:37:11 GMT -5
Dude. You're ignoring cross-classing entirely. Someone can be built with quite a few non-caster class levels, take just enough caster class to branch into pale master. How long do you think their spell durations are? Pale master itself only gives a caster level per TWO levels.
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Post by Southpaw on Jan 23, 2019 23:38:09 GMT -5
It's adjusted to be proper. Ok but the check goes up in highet increments i believe southpaw. Starting at DC 10 amd the DC doesn't get smaller till you rest. Rest is 1:00. When was estimating about 4:00 for a mile, that's *with* the walk interval. The character in question has barbarian speed, which nudges base speed to a little faster.
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Post by hellscream123 on Jan 23, 2019 23:43:10 GMT -5
Rest means 8 hours to stop fatigue increments. Otherwise its not resting by the game rules. This is because we're discussing overland travel. Not rounds in combat. Where traveling becomes very different and isn't generally based on your per round speed. As that speed assumes you're running. Also is that 1:00 minute? Hour? Day? You put forward an algorithm without a key for ky tiny brain
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Jan 23, 2019 23:45:12 GMT -5
Rest means 8 hours to stop fatigue increments. Otherwise its not resting by the game rules. This is because we're discussing overland travel. Not rounds in combat. Where traveling becomes very different and isn't generally based on your per round speed. As that speed assumes you're running. Also is that 1:00 minute? Hour? Day? You put forward an algorithm without a key for ky tiny brain If Southpaw is going by the 3.5 PHB, it's for the local level, which would be between dungeon encounters. It's up to a DM generally how many of those run/walk Hustle cycles would count before fatigue sets in, but as I posted earlier, one can hustle for about an hour on the overland level before suffering fatigue damage. At least by paper rules.
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Post by Southpaw on Jan 24, 2019 0:08:15 GMT -5
The point I'm really trying to make is just how ridiculous it is for characters to be running around with enough gear, spells, abilities, etc. to pump their stats over 30. A 32 strength can clean and jerk 2080 pounds and considers 692 a light load. A consummate endurance, represented by a 32 constitution, if you double real world values of power output at distance running like the strength value did, that makes a marathon runner who can run 12.5 MPH for 2 hours able to go 25 MPH for 2 hours if only he had the sprinting speed. Slow back down to a regular sprint, and you're going all day. The very point I'm making is that our stats get ridiculous.
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Post by DM Maleficent's Kiss on Jan 24, 2019 2:05:33 GMT -5
In fact, rule is very clean and do not allow to speed up unless you are not forced to do it. It looks like as very slow life in village, where are gathered retired people, who are already very old and tired. While the command DM was small and loyal to players, this rule was not observed so strict and everyone was happy. Now, when the team DM grew and there are a lot of free resources, that do not have anything else to do, the fulfillment of this rule is controlled much more. Maybe, it is time for me to looking for more dynamic world. The rule is enforced just as much as it always has been. A persons failure to follow the rule because it's not convenient for them is still going to merit that the staff does it's job and calls it out when we see it but it's not like it's favored over other things. People who run more are going to be noticed more and when we see someone who is running all the time when most other people in similar situations aren't...well...we're going to start wondering what their reason behind it is and possibly talk to them. This is an RP world, hence, RP comes first and like or not, when you're running all over the place it is against the spirit of a RP world. You will run into this sort of "walk unless you have IC reason to run" thing on most RP first type worlds. No good RP server allows their players to run around willy nilly without some kind of good reason behind it and most have a rule against this sort of thing. The subject of immersion is an entirely different topic but walking is something that lends to that concept. Think for a few moments if we abolished the rule of walking for even...a week? What if we made it a rule that everyone must run, EVERYWHERE and if you don't run everywhere regardless of where you are then you are violation of the rule. This sounds stupid but entertain this thought for a few moments, think of GG, Suzail market, the Tipsy Imp, and other RP first hubs where people spend a lot of time immersing themselves, or trying to, while everyone is running around just to move. I think I just heard a train wreck take place in the RP first sanctuary of my mind even typing that out and going there for a moment ^ The point is, this one simple rule as silly as some might think it is goes a long way towards setting a tone, setting a mood, and creating an atmosphere that encourages RP. It does this by slowing things down literally so a person has to take time and think, when you're walking through town the chances of you have a meaningful RP interaction jump exponentially because you're in that area longer. Walking also subconsciously tells other players your focus is RP, you're not in a rush, you're taking in the scenery and looking to hang out, or looking for conversation. It's not always the big things, sometimes it's the little things - like walking. Running on the other hand encourages action, hack and slash elements of the game, and these are not bad elements of the game, they are quite necessary yet reserved for particular situations of which there should be a good IC reason they're happening - like running. Ask an action gamer why they're running and they probably won't even understand the question but to the RP'er it totally makes sense.
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Post by Rane on Jan 24, 2019 2:08:02 GMT -5
In the end it seems that running is a very straight forward rule and some are wondering why I even created this thread. I did so to challenge the view of the rule. As it stands, it has been proven that several people hold different interpretations and opinions. I hope that we can all find common ground.
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