Deleted
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Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 13:48:44 GMT -5
Well, I wasn't really thinking that the delay would be measured in days. Seems like most times recently when I look, there are 2 or 3 DMs logged on.
Also, we're talking about a server that previously avoided haks because it might be too much trouble for some people to download the files and copy them into the proper folder. I would suggest that chat logging, screenshots, finding the files, attaching to forum posts, etc, might require at least as much basic computer skill as installing hak files.
Consider also the possibility that the victims of alleged griefing might have been caught completely off guard and unprepared to produce evidence.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Jan 16, 2019 14:16:35 GMT -5
If it's a bunch of buddies who just enjoy taking turns hacking at each other's characters, then who cares, right? If nobody else is involved, It is their personal deal and it do not break "golden" rule.
well sorry to burst your golden rule stance but pvp is protected by the golden rule aswell because I love pvp n the rp involved with each interaction. That leads up to conflict.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Jan 16, 2019 14:29:28 GMT -5
well sorry to burst your golden rule stance but pvp is protected by the golden rule aswell because I love pvp n the rp involved with each interaction. That leads up to conflict. In this case, you have a chance to come into conflict with people who do not like PvP and become their favorite prey. 😂 tsk task task we know who the greefers are at that point.last I checked greefing is a bannable offense lol. So much for the gold rule though huh.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jan 16, 2019 14:32:15 GMT -5
Well I can tell you that you'll never hear me worry about who started it or why. I am super nice! I will ALWAYS assume you have a valid RP reason for beating my PC into the dirt and I will NEVER complain to a DM unless something ridiculous, such as you're doing it OOC and not being in character. Even then I'll probably try to RP you were a crazy person and get some interesting IC interactions as a result. I think if people just default assume their enemies are actually their friends playing a game of cowboys and Indians, and don't sweat having to press respawn now and then, the DMs job will be silky smooth. We'll all take a few lumps now and then, but it'll be fun because its just a game.
And Helgrin.. Lawlzzz.. it was like if that poor white guy that fought Mike Tyson was in the corner catching uppercuts, but he could drink heal potions to prolong the pain. I think you took about 3k damage before I outran your potions. hehehehehehe. I half expected your dwarf to bash Hypatia the other day in payback!
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Post by Warlord on Jan 16, 2019 16:32:08 GMT -5
Manshin's title of "FRC2 Build Team" should be changed to, "FRC Veteran Cuddler."
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jan 16, 2019 17:36:12 GMT -5
Manshin's title of "FRC2 Build Team" should be changed to, "FRC Veteran Cuddler." See why can't you say things like that Helgrin?
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Post by Helgrin Granitesoul on Jan 17, 2019 0:08:20 GMT -5
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Post by Warlord on Jan 17, 2019 0:30:07 GMT -5
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jan 17, 2019 1:23:29 GMT -5
You beautiful bastard.... but I couldn't help but notice Manshin isn't on that list. Wouldn't have been fair to the normies.
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Post by Animayhem on Jan 17, 2019 10:56:27 GMT -5
My opinion current FRC PVP(the surprise attack) as it happens:
Rp -mostly nil in what I have experiences
Aggressor: Oh yea I am bad ,I am uber power, yea pvp server. Do I warn them? They will be jumpy and can't prepare but then again they can just log out. Ill just go and whack someone no reason and hostile right before I strike, no escape. Oh my bad they are dead.*evil *laugh. Do I ooc raise them or let them rot. Scrolls cost not worth gold loss. Let them spawn . Meh I got coin raise em they can't do squat anyway.
Victim: Crap I have been hostiled. Do I leave game or try and find people to be with. Damn no one is in town so where do I waste my coin to travel? I just was attacked and killed and not raised. I am alone. There goes my planned rp out the window as well as xp and gold earned due to respawn. I try and send a tell to one of my planned rp people hoping they haven't left without me even if I got an ooc raise Do I waste time on trying to determine if grief or not? Meh Ill just save logs. Damn my party already left my mood and rp shot for the day. All that planning wasted.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Jan 17, 2019 12:17:25 GMT -5
My opinion current FRC PVP(the surprise attack)Â as it happens:
Rp -mostly nil in what I have experiences
Aggressor: Oh yea I am bad ,I am uber power, yea pvp server. Do I warn them? They will be jumpy and can't prepare but then again they can just log out. Ill just go and whack someone no reason and hostile right before I strike, no escape. Oh my bad they are dead.*evil *laugh. Do I ooc raise them or let them rot. Scrolls cost not worth gold loss. Let them spawn . Meh I got coin raise em they can't do squat anyway.
Victim: Crap I have been hostiled. Do I leave game or try and find people to be with. Damn no one is in town so where do I waste my coin to travel? I just was attacked and killed and not raised. I am alone. There goes my planned rp out the window as well as xp and gold earned due to respawn. I try and send a tell to one of my planned rp people hoping they haven't left without me even if I got an ooc raise Do I waste time on trying to determine if grief or not? Meh Ill just save logs. Damn my party already left my mood and rp shot for the day. All that planning wasted.
lmao evils do not seek out pvp. It's the goodies or others that say hmm my PC has no respect or fear for said evil let me hurl insults and poke the bear. When things happen. Gasp the devils such ducks such people who dont rp or warn so I can buff and prep for said attack.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Jan 17, 2019 12:19:14 GMT -5
As for IOC raises. I dont offer them unless a dm is over head. Iv been metagame by those iv raised so. In my defence to ensure 30 min rule applys I do not raise. Unless a dm is over head.
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Post by Always_a_hero on Jan 17, 2019 12:38:19 GMT -5
I wouldn't think PvP is a bad mechanic to begin with: when two players wants to see which of their character is the stronguest, well they can do just that. However, "wants" is the key word here. I think it would be fair to assume (sorry if I didn't read this 5 pages long thread) most players who don't want to do PvP have something they don't want to lose: gold and xp behing the classics.
But for those who plays antagonists (which is not always evil, even good people can antagonise), there needs to be a conflict of values such as is stealing good/bad, is hunting too many deers bad (looking at druids and rangers) and I'm not even talking about head hunting. After all, the attacker also has risks of losing, just lesser than the attacked.
PvP, on a server such as FRC, should then be a way to solve a problem with violence in RP or, as mentionned before, friendly competition. There's a whole thread on how PvP should handled too: if one the rules are broken, it's up to the victim to tell a DM about it.
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Post by deadbeatbert on Jan 17, 2019 13:14:51 GMT -5
My opinion current FRC PVP(the surprise attack) as it happens:
Rp -mostly nil in what I have experiences
Aggressor: Oh yea I am bad ,I am uber power, yea pvp server. Do I warn them? They will be jumpy and can't prepare but then again they can just log out. Ill just go and whack someone no reason and hostile right before I strike, no escape. Oh my bad they are dead.*evil *laugh. Do I ooc raise them or let them rot. Scrolls cost not worth gold loss. Let them spawn . Meh I got coin raise em they can't do squat anyway.
Victim: Crap I have been hostiled. Do I leave game or try and find people to be with. Damn no one is in town so where do I waste my coin to travel? I just was attacked and killed and not raised. I am alone. There goes my planned rp out the window as well as xp and gold earned due to respawn. I try and send a tell to one of my planned rp people hoping they haven't left without me even if I got an ooc raise Do I waste time on trying to determine if grief or not? Meh Ill just save logs. Damn my party already left my mood and rp shot for the day. All that planning wasted.
lmao evils do not seek out pvp. It's the goodies or others that say hmm my PC has no respect or fear for said evil let me hurl insults and poke the bear. When things happen. Gasp the devils such ducks such people who dont rp or warn so I can buff and prep for said attack. People seek out pvp. They can be any alignment. The actual point of Animayhem's post is interesting though and highlights two sides of the coin: The attack with no rp. What are your opinions about that?
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Post by Always_a_hero on Jan 17, 2019 13:33:13 GMT -5
Not to be that guy, but again, the rules of PvP states it should be Role-Played at all time.
So, in the case of the "pvp without roleplay", you either have a rule being broken or the attacker is actually roleplaying someone who would come by and kill without warning or reason... Which would qualify for something along the line of a Chaotic Evil alignment.
If this is to ever happen in game, which I'm sure happened before and will again, I suggest the attacker does hostile the victim-to-be and even sends a tell to explain the line of thought of his character.
Furthermore, I'd suggest punishment for a PvP rulebreak other than a ban- maybe something in the form of xp or gold fine with enough evidence. Example: giving the character who PvPed without rp an unsellable item which forces a 20% experience penality feat for a week.
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Post by deadbeatbert on Jan 17, 2019 13:41:22 GMT -5
An interesting idea with the xp, but if the character is endgame it's not a penalty. I think any punishment along those lines would have to be tailored to the character.
Not saying I do or do not endorse the idea, I'd have to dedicate time to weighing those pros and cons.
Edit - not that me endorsing anything actually holds any weight lol!
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Post by Dobian on Jan 17, 2019 13:49:23 GMT -5
My view on pvp is, I hate loot selling rp. Yes, I cannot stand loot selling rp. Roleplaying selling stuff with people for an hour is my worst nightmare. I would rather be ganked by a pvp'er and left to rot in the mud than rp selling stuff. And *that* is my opinion on pvp!
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Post by Dobian on Jan 17, 2019 15:07:36 GMT -5
Though adding onto that now with a quick thought: I wouldn't mind seeing death penalties reduced if you were killed by PVP, and here's why: PVP occurs because of roleplay, which on a large scale should be coming about because we're trying to entertain each other with the stories we're collectively trying to write (or sometimes unattractively mash together). Once the victim has been killed, that part of the story -- the fun collaborative part -- is done. Losing xp and gold on death makes sense from a mechanical gameplay standpoint but if it's a death from PVP then that penalty is a sucker punch that devalues what the roleplay should have been focused on: Having fun with a story with others. It ain't a solution, but it helps keep PVP more in line with the golden rule of fun. PVP should be an entertaining medium for your roleplay and not have an attached mechanical penalty that takes away from the experience. (Haha, xp loss joke...)I'll add that xp and gold loss on death is supposed to be a punishment for failing at gameplay, i.e., you voluntarily went into a dungeon and died. Suffering an xp and gold loss because of a pvp you did not volunteer for and had no chance of winning with your level 12 up against a level 24 is quite a different thing.
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Andros
Old School
I only know that I know nothing
Posts: 437
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Post by Andros on Jan 17, 2019 16:44:46 GMT -5
They are seeking to make as close to an ic experience as they can here. Pvp is part of that. (Again this coming from someone that doesn't even like pvp) Edit to add: I have this image in my head of ppl trying to make others go to an arena who want to talk smack but won't go cause... Why would they? Player 1: hey turds how u lame idiots doing today. Player 2: gruush kills men for talking to him like this. Player 1: sounds like your mom dropped u on your head Player 2: grush challenges you and sees you in the arena! Player 1: sorry I have a date with your mother tonight. //Haha can't fight me outside arena. Git gud son And if u think this doesn't happen I've met a handful over the years that do just this and troll others because they can in situations where either pvp isn't possible or one guy won't kill another in front of a guard etc and so the man hides in town cause he wants to avoid the pvp he just made a possibility. Ppl would take advantage of this with a pick pocket to. Just go around pick pocketing. You can't stop them. You can't pvp them. So they just keep going around pick pocketing over and over. (Let's be honest nobody on server who does pick pocketing even bothers to rp it or set to hostile like they are supposed to) There are so many more problems that would arise because the fact that Nothing has ic weight anymore without pvp to back it up. This particular gruush guy seems dumb enough to assault someone in front of the guards, but usually the people involved in these situations have more than 8 intelligence and would realize assaulting someone immediately in front of the guards/witnesses to be a bad idea. To make this assault make any sense Gruush here should wait until this guy goes somewhere where the guards are not around then attack him. Otherwise ignoring the guards because you know this is a game and you will not be jailed for life it's just as bad as what player 1 was doing. OR alternatively maybe you could just punch him, No subdual you say? no problem! just beat him unarmed until he's badly wounded or so, then at least it makes sense IC because spending a few days in jail for beating someone up is realistic. And if player 1 draws his weapon then he's the one that rots in jail.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 17:23:27 GMT -5
Your realize the above was an example of what could happen if the arena idea was being used for the only pvp allowed on the server right? Not sure I follow the point of the comment on that.
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Post by Lady Frost on Jan 17, 2019 18:43:01 GMT -5
Our death penalty is already weak and players can already pop their characters right back up and continue. For those players who refuse to show any semblance of fear with their characters, at least there is some OOC fear of having to eat a respawn. Chances are if they're part of a great RP experience they're probably getting raised anyhow, so, to me, the claim of losing gold and XP for good RP is debatable.
I also agree with Aris/MysteriousFigure. Its actually pretty uncommon, from what I've seen, for evils to be the initial trigger for PvP. It's usually someone disrespecting them and refusing to take an out or not realizing they're being given an out.
/2cents
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Jan 17, 2019 19:11:41 GMT -5
lmao evils do not seek out pvp. It's the goodies or others that say hmm my PC has no respect or fear for said evil let me hurl insults and poke the bear. When things happen. Gasp the devils such ducks such people who dont rp or warn so I can buff and prep for said attack. People seek out pvp. They can be any alignment. The actual point of Animayhem's post is interesting though and highlights two sides of the coin: The attack with no rp. What are your opinions about that? any pvp encounter I have acted on has had a rp history before the attacks.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jan 17, 2019 19:25:52 GMT -5
If you get killed.. why would you ever assume there wasn't RP justification? If you're being killed, there MUST have been even if you don't know what it is, because we have rules, and the rules say there has to be justification. Seems to me you should always just assume there is unless there's some blatant indicator that there isn't... like if he's emoting that he tea-bagged you and said "Lawlzzzz bitches"
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Jan 17, 2019 20:39:54 GMT -5
I've been killed on Slate like 4 times cause of juvenile insults like asking someone which one of his mother's 6 teats was his favorite. Nothing like taking the 600 xp respawn penalty, walking back to the spot in Greatgaunt that the death occurred and playing the death amnesia to fullest.
"You were just killed you know...." "What're you talking about? How would I be standing here if I just died? I'm preeeeeetty sure I'd remember if I died ..."
'Course, then there's always thanking the people that killed you for giving you the opportunity to go into the underworld and defeating it. They'll never kill you again if you do that, I guarantee it.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jan 17, 2019 20:44:47 GMT -5
Slate!? OMG that dude is still around? And he can actually kill people?
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Jan 17, 2019 20:48:03 GMT -5
He's killed a good couple people. Almost got an epic mage once by putting a load of powerful traps outside their room in the Greatgaunt inn. It was gonna be glorious but then they logged out and ruined it.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jan 18, 2019 0:15:15 GMT -5
I love Slate. He can murder me anytime and I won't even cry if I have to respawn!
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Post by Razgriz on Jan 18, 2019 1:26:06 GMT -5
PS: If the server is so greatly targeted on role play, then why does the character do not receive experience for communication? In fact, experience is given only for murder. XP isn't just earned from monsters and quests on FRC. XP is also given by DMs as rewards for good roleplay. They'll drop these during events and when they observe you taking part in consistent, quality roleplay. The largest XP drop I've had from a DM was 2000 xp at the conclusion of a very large event, but most XP drops are typically 100, 250 or 500. (The smallest I've been handed is 69 xp after Syd's dropped in on me and someone else in an inn room <_<)If all you do is group up with players to bash out a quick adventure, sell loot, then repeat then you're unlikely to ever see these RP XP drops. Secret NWN:EE FRC Steam Achievement: Level up once after earning 69 XP...
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Eldok
Proven Member
Atonement is the way
Posts: 216
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Post by Eldok on Jan 18, 2019 1:39:41 GMT -5
You speak about situation, where DM motivate players. I spoke about system where character can grow even without combat and without DM intervention. There's no quantifiable system that'd allow for that without also allowing for some degree of exploitation. Just see the prior often repeated discussions on this here on the forums and even in recent discord chats. It comes up almost as often as these PVP threads. XP rewards for roleplay are best given by a human hand. I disagree.
There is actually a quantifiable system that' allows that without any degree of exploitation. The server is called PotM, and the script is awesome, it allows for some people to actually reach high enough levels only by RP'ing, which makes complete sense.
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Eldok
Proven Member
Atonement is the way
Posts: 216
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Post by Eldok on Jan 18, 2019 2:45:18 GMT -5
I disagree. There is actually a quantifiable system that' allows that without any degree of exploitation. The server is called PotM, and the script is awesome, it allows for some people to actually reach high enough levels only by RP'ing, which makes complete sense.
Mhrm, maybe! If I remember Ravenloft didn't give you XP at the time of monster kills or when RPing, but instead gave it all at once when you rested so it was harder to determine where the XP was sourced from? Thereby less powergaming and potential exploitation could happen. Ravenloft also had XP gain caps that slowed your progression if you were killing monsters too fast too frequently. Ravenloft more or less entirely replaced Bioware's experience system with their own implementation, and it works well because every sub-component of it work towards the one intent of their system, but it works through obscurity to try and prevent exploitation or gaming of its systems. Another server with an RP XP system is Arelith. Arelith's doesn't hide behind obscurity but it does require a level of DM involvement. They use a system they call Role Play Bonus that trickles XP to you every six minutes if you're not AFK. The amount is determined by what is essentially a roleplay quality rating system DMs adjust on you. That system is closer to FRC's bonus reward XP grants but with automation and a heavier focus on maintaining good ratings with DMs. One complaint I frequently hear about Arelith's systems though is perceived favoritism by DMs and cliche player groups that leave people feeling shuttered out from RP XP. (Though the same could probably be said about FRC by disgruntled players.) IIRC Arelith and I think City of Arabel (or some other Cormyrian/Arabel server) have been cited as examples in earlier discussions on this, will have to try and find them again for a new topic. Much of the concern over automated RP XP systems here is that they're hard to write, and once players discover what requirement qualifies them for the XP ticks it can be maximized and gamed. Good point. Though Ravenloft’s exp RP system can’t be exploited.
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