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Post by tingly on Jan 11, 2019 2:14:15 GMT -5
PVP can actually be a good experience. Though I say that with quite a few asterisks. One of those being that people understand the boundaries in place. If you're referring to the DM Q&A topics, I'd say those are almost certainly players trying to make sure they know the boundaries, and it's good of them to do so.
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Post by Dobian on Jan 11, 2019 2:36:34 GMT -5
This server has pvp, that's not going to change. If you don't like pvp, and a lot of players don't, it's pretty easy to keep your character out of violent conflicts.
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Post by dazza555 on Jan 11, 2019 7:29:41 GMT -5
Non-antagonistic characters -generally- don't get into PvP engagements. There are ofcourse exceptions, say if you're ambushed by a certain notorious outlaw. Even so, I've seen 'bad-guys' throw there weight around but never actually draw swords first.
The best kind of conflict generally involves very tense confrontations, a lot of RP can be generated from a good old fashioned stare down.
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Post by Animayhem on Jan 11, 2019 10:48:40 GMT -5
What would take some of the edge off pvp would be subdual mode. This way the aggressor can have their pound of flesh. The victim can still play and not have to rely on an ooc raise or hoping another player will find them to raise or have to respawn and lose valuable xp (yea you lose gold but gold easier to get than xp. The victim would be stunned. Memories could actually return in regards to attack making violence reports easier to file and less drawn out trials. As it stands right now. Unless people around you are screwed if attacked and killed as you have "no memory" and the aggressor goes free.
Subdual is also good for friendly spatting battles. At times it is hard to break away from fighting due to the ai. Again no raise dead scrolls would be needed.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Jan 11, 2019 11:50:25 GMT -5
Pvp is a story driver. Yes feelings get hurt but that's because the society we all live in today. But if you pull your feelings out of pvp. It can unroll epic stories
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Jan 11, 2019 12:32:26 GMT -5
Why must we do anything but play. You consent to pvp when you log into frc. If you wish to avoid conflict then do so. But pop can drive stories and plots. It is a good thing. Imo just like in your opinion.it isnt.i suggest try out php encounters and try and separate feelings over the outcome. It will make stories better.
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Post by Animayhem on Jan 11, 2019 13:13:01 GMT -5
Why must we do anything but play. You consent to pvp when you log into frc. If you wish to avoid conflict then do so. But pop can drive stories and plots. It is a good thing. Imo just like in your opinion.it isnt.i suggest try out php encounters and try and separate feelings over the outcome. It will make stories better. As it stands now if you are killed by pvp you have no recourse if no witnesses as you have "death amnesia" As it stands now, you the victim have to prove you were killed, This currently is a long and drug out process ooc mainly. You may try and avoid conflict via discussion or just walking away. That does not "save" you as the person may be hell bent on killing you no matter what. You cannot react and prepare if you are hostiled.
Subdual mode provides a more even playing field. The aggressor can rp their violence and the victim can rp retribution by way of making a report as they were knocked out rather than killed. It would lessen the amount of in my opinion wasted ooc time by players and dms.
People knocked out may not remember right away but memories can come back. With the death law here you have no such recourse.
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Post by FORSETIS on Jan 11, 2019 13:46:46 GMT -5
Pvp is a story driver. Yes feelings get hurt but that's because the society we all live in today. But if you pull your feelings out of pvp. It can unroll epic stories Build an Arena, prepare the prize and gather anyone who wants to participate. Sell tickets to everyone who wants to look at the spectacle, open the totate and take the bid for the winner. If PvP can not be banned, then, at least, earn money. About epic stories - Gather great team and lead it to defeat super epic boss. In case of win you will be story maker. But, also, everyone who participated in battle, will feel himself hero. There is an arena. And PvP is important to have. It gives weight to our actions. How silly would it be if someone could just say and do whatever they wanted. And you couldnt do anything about it? Thats not immersive at all. If you dont want to pvp believe me you probably wont ever do it. Its not really something thats forced on anyone who doesnt really like it. That said though... dont go bad mouthing a red wizard in town because you know youre safe, and then get mad when you get killed outside of town. If you dont like pvp, Dont be aggressive toward other characters. And the problem sorts itself out.
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Post by Dobian on Jan 11, 2019 13:51:58 GMT -5
Subdual mode provides a more even playing field. The aggressor can rp their violence and the victim can rp retribution by way of making a report as they were knocked out rather than killed. It would lessen the amount of in my opinion wasted ooc time by players and dms I would like to see subdual implemented because not every fight is a fight to the death. The classic example is a simple bar fight with fists. Or somebody mouths off in town and your character wants to punch him in the mouth. Like in real life, most fights logically shouldn't be to the death. And most of the time, players avoid fights because they don't want to see their character get executed just because words were exchanged in town and it escalated. With subdual, you would see a lot more of these kind of fights which would spice up the server.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2019 14:14:25 GMT -5
They could even be encouraged to rip off articles of clothing and toss them into the ring! YEEEEEEEE HAW!
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Post by malclave on Jan 11, 2019 14:50:03 GMT -5
They could even be encouraged to rip off articles of clothing and toss them into the ring! YEEEEEEEE HAW! I'm another person who's not a fan of PvP, but a variation on this (a lady's favor) would probably force my halfling to participate.
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Post by prickinsmack on Jan 11, 2019 15:20:20 GMT -5
They could even be encouraged to rip off articles of clothing and toss them into the ring! YEEEEEEEE HAW! Even more. They can even propose herself as prize. Women love strong and successful winners.
This is getting uncomfortable. If you guys could tone it down, that would be great.
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Post by Lady Frost on Jan 11, 2019 15:25:52 GMT -5
Build an Arena, prepare the prize and gather anyone who wants to participate. Sell tickets to everyone who wants to look at the spectacle, open the totate and take the bid for the winner. If PvP can not be banned, then, at least, earn money. About epic stories - Gather great team and lead it to defeat super epic boss. In case of win you will be story maker. But, also, everyone who participated in battle, will feel himself hero. There is an arena. And PvP is important to have. It gives weight to our actions. How silly would it be if someone could just say and do whatever they wanted. And you couldnt do anything about it? Thats not immersive at all. If you dont want to pvp believe me you probably wont ever do it. Its not really something thats forced on anyone who doesnt really like it. That said though... dont go bad mouthing a red wizard in town because you know youre safe, and then get mad when you get killed outside of town. If you dont like pvp, Dont be aggressive toward other characters. And the problem sorts itself out. As FORSETIS said, PvP is a necessary piece of the server. This has been proven by the time Greatgaunt was set to no PvP. Players constantly hid behind the fact they could not be attacked and their characters would say the most ridiculous things to other characters knowing OOC'ly nothing could happen to them. The OOC fear of being murdered and having to respawn plays a legitimate part of the IC politics of the server and as much as it shouldn't and we don't want it to, it simply is a fact that it works that way.
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Post by Southpaw on Jan 11, 2019 15:30:08 GMT -5
I see all perspectives on PVP, although I do have my own view as well. What I like most is what you might call “structured PVP,” that being “structured” in the sense that you know before the fighting ever starts what the fighting is about, why killing is the only solution left to the conflict, who you are facing, why they’re fighting you, and the ultimate end goal is something other than killing your character for its own sake. I also like when the end goal isn’t killing a character, but some other goal, because it gives more RP options to resolve encounters, characters are more likely to pursue the goal and let you go if you move out of their way, you can help your side without being an actual sword swinger, and things like this.
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Post by deadbeatbert on Jan 11, 2019 17:24:16 GMT -5
I've experienced two very different types of PvP over a short period of time recently; the first instances I have been involved in over six years.
One was, well, worthless. It did nothing for role play except for the rescue aftermath.
The other?
The other was one of the single best experiences I have had on FRC.
So, having got to enjoy both ends of the spectrum in short order, I firmly believe that the server needs PvP accessible to everyone, everywhere at any time under the proviso that the rules are obeyed implicitly.
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Post by malclave on Jan 11, 2019 19:46:04 GMT -5
I agree with you about following the rules. I've had a couple instances of near-PvP that probably would have been productive from a RP view, but in counterpoint the PvP I've actually experienced have been...
- low level character getting ganked in GG; I think I was between levels 4 and 6 and an epic level character decided to go on a rampage. The DMs ruled that it really didn't happen, though, so I guess the bad experience was just an hallucination on my part.
- couple of characters around level 10 challenged to a 1-on-2 duel. I didn't really want to join, but I was persuaded, and it was agreed to back off before an actual killing blow. Turns out the "1" character was level 20, and after he buffed up he didn't have time to back off before killing the character I was with. He also didn't bother offering a Raise, so I was left with the expense of a scroll.
- (this time I was the high level) in an area which was low-level for me, but the dungeon inhabitants scaled up and I was still getting 8-10 xp each (plus quest xp) for a short trip so I'd still run through every now and then if I was passing by. Couple of lower level characters (in the proper range) were approaching as I was coming out, and we started RPing. They decided to trash-talk and try to rob me, but I wasn't giving in, and after a few minutes I decided to move on. One of them decided to follow me and attack. He summoned some undead thing, I quickly killed it, and let him run away. Couple minutes later I got a /tell about how I really shouldn't be in that area because I was too high level. So I guess he figured it wasn't fair that he couldn't just gank anyone he wanted.
So, yeah, I understand that in theory PvP can contribute to roleplay... but I hope other people understand that it's used for other things, too, which can turn people off of it.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Jan 11, 2019 22:59:46 GMT -5
In fact, PvP is not fun as I mentioned before. I thi in your opinion in fact it's great fun for me.
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Eldok
Proven Member
Atonement is the way
Posts: 216
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Post by Eldok on Jan 12, 2019 2:03:25 GMT -5
The thing is, PvP on FRC isn’t omptimized.
If you really want some realistic PvP you need the characters to drop a corpse with their money and weapons (if it is equipped) when they die, so anyone can actually carry the corpse and burn/raise/do anything that pleases the person who carries the corpse and it’s stuff, that would make PvP AND death a really serious matter in server, because it isn’t currently the case. I think it would generate a lot of RP, which is something that actually miss on FRC sometimes. I have played for a long on a server where that system is applied and it works very well I think!
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Post by Animayhem on Jan 12, 2019 5:11:27 GMT -5
Subdual does not take way from pvp but adds depth to pvp. It offers more choices in pvp outcome. It will allow friendly bouts between people. It will make pvp more balanced.
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Post by Animayhem on Jan 12, 2019 5:18:32 GMT -5
And PvP is important to have. It gives weight to our actions. How silly would it be if someone could just say and do whatever they wanted. And you couldnt do anything about it? Thats not immersive at all. If you dont want to pvp believe me you probably wont ever do it. Its not really something thats forced on anyone who doesnt really like it. That said though... dont go bad mouthing a red wizard in town because you know youre safe, and then get mad when you get killed outside of town. If you dont like pvp, Dont be aggressive toward other characters. And the problem sorts itself out. I disagree. It has been forced on people, it was forced on me. I was not aggressive. Had subdual been in place it would of made it more palatable my character could of had a chance to remember, could of had better chance to report. As it stands now the victim can not do jack unless witnesses.
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Post by dazza555 on Jan 12, 2019 6:33:29 GMT -5
PvP settings in game do not mean true PvP environment. It just allows one character to kill another. Like in real life. Some add: Any PvP activity have to be punished. Any cooperation work and team building have to be motivated. Characters have to avoid conflicts and develop friendship. --- Few days ago, in VR, near bank, SergeiL meet injured woman who was selling stuff. SergeiL have used health kit to heal her a little bit, nothing behind. Just because she is woman and she is injured. Woman's reaction was strange. She was started to say unpleasant words to him and even laughted in face after. SergeiL have answered nothing and left. Maybe Sergey should kill her because she insulted him? Not going into the issues of sexism here, but if we're looking at it from a realist perspective based on the belief that PvP should have more realistic consequences. A woman with minor injuries was approached by a complete stranger who then proceeded to do first aid on her without asking if that was okay. Use of a healkit does mean you have to touch the recipient, possibly invasively depending on where the injury is. Even if you asked, not everyone will respond positively to 'hello stranger, I see you're bleeding there. Mind if I bandage you?' Zadhura in her more prickly stages has responded with a blunt: 'Dont touch me' when strangers have asked.
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Post by Southpaw on Jan 12, 2019 7:28:54 GMT -5
The thing is, PvP on FRC isn’t omptimized. If you really want some realistic PvP you need the characters to drop a corpse with their money and weapons (if it is equipped) when they die, so anyone can actually carry the corpse and burn/raise/do anything that pleases the person who carries the corpse and it’s stuff, that would make PvP AND death a really serious matter in server, because it isn’t currently the case. I think it would generate a lot of RP, which is something that actually miss on FRC sometimes. I have played for a long on a server where that system is applied and it works very well I think! I’ve played on that server as well. As much as I totally think corpses should be movable (because in real life they are), that server does that regardless of cause of death, respawn is far more costly to the point hardly anyone ever does it, there is a solid subdual system, execution for murder can result in forced permadeath, there is no death amnesia so you have to face the music if your target comes back, and when I was there, the server had a pretty serious ethic about “role play first, then consider subdual, and don’t gank without prior interaction,” all of which changes the environment regarding PVP. As much as I greatly prefer that style of play with PVP, I think if you alter one part without altering the rest, you’ll only add irritation, because each part on the other server plays a role in supporting the whole.
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Post by Rane on Jan 12, 2019 7:44:04 GMT -5
Ah so the pvp conversation has come up again.
This happens once every few years.
Likely due to a large new player base we are going to see a lot more pvp than normal.
It will even out.
Cheers
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Post by dazza555 on Jan 12, 2019 10:21:33 GMT -5
Just because she is woman and she is injured. The implication here is that SergeiL healed her both because she's a woman and because she was injured. Regardless of gender, certain character tropes as a whole are difficult to play, I don't think it's fair to say women are more complicated than men. I also don't think it matters the gender of the player behind the character. But that's simply my opinion
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Eldok
Proven Member
Atonement is the way
Posts: 216
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Post by Eldok on Jan 12, 2019 13:15:21 GMT -5
Sergeil.
This is a roleplaying server, not a grinding server. That implies the fact your character might get killed in PvP at some point. The server is created so it can be the more realistic possible. I am a PvP guy and let me tell you why; when you play DnD, because this is what NWN is all about, you want your character to build his own story, and this is where PvP becomes important, having the risk to lose your character at some point is what gives him all his worth. I don’t see any reason to do a thing if there is no conclusion or no challenge related to it. But if you don’t want to involve your character in any dangerous situation that might risk his life, just do like so. Otherwise, there are a lot of MMORPGs about and maybe they are more suited for you !
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Eldok
Proven Member
Atonement is the way
Posts: 216
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Post by Eldok on Jan 12, 2019 13:34:15 GMT -5
And please stop it with sexism, feminism and everything related !
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Post by Munroe on Jan 12, 2019 16:50:28 GMT -5
Why must we do anything but play. You consent to pvp when you log into frc. If you wish to avoid conflict then do so. But pop can drive stories and plots. It is a good thing. Imo just like in your opinion.it isnt.i suggest try out php encounters and try and separate feelings over the outcome. It will make stories better. As it stands now if you are killed by pvp you have no recourse if no witnesses as you have "death amnesia" As it stands now, you the victim have to prove you were killed, This currently is a long and drug out process ooc mainly. You may try and avoid conflict via discussion or just walking away. That does not "save" you as the person may be hell bent on killing you no matter what. You cannot react and prepare if you are hostiled.
Subdual mode provides a more even playing field. The aggressor can rp their violence and the victim can rp retribution by way of making a report as they were knocked out rather than killed. It would lessen the amount of in my opinion wasted ooc time by players and dms.
People knocked out may not remember right away but memories can come back. With the death law here you have no such recourse.
You seem to have missed the point of Death-Amnesia. If you have Death-Amnesia, you don't have to prove you were killed. In fact, your character can't know they were killed. Your character has memory loss surrounding the event. That does not mean that's the only way you could have memory loss though, so your character can't know with certainty that you were killed. One purpose of Death-Amnesia is precisely so you can go on playing without having to worry about pursuing revenge for a death that you don't know happened. The only way you can know you were killed is, in fact, if someone else tells you. That means there was at least one witness. If they were killed in the PVP too then they have Death-Amnesia and can't tell you that you were killed, unless they were Raised before you were killed. That's an unlikely scenario that might mean they don't have Death-Amnesia at all, if it was the same combat. (How many people get brought back to life in the middle of a fight?)
Death-Amnesia allows you to get back into the game without dealing with seeking revenge or retribution. If someone killed you with no witnesses, they got away clean and there's nothing your character can do about it, but that also means there's nothing your character has to do about it, and it has no impact on your character (who has, no doubt, died countless other ways to NPCs that had no significant impact on them as well).
You cannot react and prepare if you are toggled hostile, because the notice of someone turning hostile is an OOC notice. However, you can react to roleplayed threats or in-character taunting. You can be suspicious of strangers and of people actively threatening you, neither of which even requires toggling hostile.
As for the ability to deal nonlethal damage, I would not oppose it if it were not made mandatory. If it were proposed as a replacement for PVP, then I oppose it. Murderers should be able to commit murder. Reckless fights where people didn't pull their punches should result in accidental death sometimes. Magic spells are lethal damage unless other magic is employed to make them not so. Sneak Attacks with weapons always deal lethal damage unless that weapon is a sap. A rogue cannot elect to deal nonlethal damage on a sneak attack with a weapon that deals lethal damage. All these things need to be considered when implementing a nonlethal damage system so that it doesn't just become "PVP Mode" and replace the ability to die in PVP. Death should be a risk in PVP. Even the rules for nonlethal damage indicate that, after taking enough nonlethal damage, the damage becomes lethal damage. That's usually after the target has lost consciousness though, like kicking someone that is down, but if someone hits for enough damage it should be possible to deal enough nonlethal damage that some of it ends-up as lethal damage and it could still kill a character if their total HP is low enough. Like say a character with 90 hp getting hit for 200 damage before the attacker stops attacking, which could easily happen in one round with a high level attacker. Even if that damage was nonlethal, it's enough to kill that PC because it runs through all their "nonlethal hitpoints" and all their regular hitpoints, and still drops them below -10. Adding nonlethal damage isn't just about adding a new and complex system though, it's about considering whether such a system would be a positive or negative impact on the roleplay of the world. There are arguments on both sides of that.
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Post by Munroe on Jan 12, 2019 18:28:55 GMT -5
Death-Amnesia allows you to get back into the game without dealing with seeking revenge or retribution. If someone killed you with no witnesses, they got away clean and there's nothing your character can do about it, but that also means there's nothing your character has to do about it, and it has no impact on your character (who has, no doubt, died countless other ways to NPCs that had no significant impact on them as well).
I believe the point Animayhem is raising is that some players may well not want to go on as if nothing ever happened. If everyone wanted to go on like nothing ever happened, there would be no need for a rule requiring them to do so, because everyone would do it naturally with no rule requiring it, so the existence of the rule serves as evidence in itself that not everyone wants to go on like the PVP never happened. For a player that doesn't want to play that way, saying you are "allowed" to play as if nothing ever happened would be like saying the RL law "allows" you to pay your taxes as an opportunity to participate in providing for governmental services. Yes, you're correct. The difference is that in this case, the killer/victor still has the knowledge that they killed you, so in their world you were their victim. In your world, influenced by Death-Amnesia, you weren't. That is, of course, until they taunt you about it, or it gets back to you because they told somebody with loose lips. Then you may, of course, decide that you think it probably happened and go through all that rigmarole. The burden of proof, then, would rest with whoever is trying to prove it. The system rewards attacks that are played smart, without witnesses, without bragging later, without automatically creating "wronged" characters that have to seek retribution. It also serves to put a quick and hard stop to potential cycles of PVP retribution because you can't seek retribution for something you don't know happened.
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Post by Southpaw on Jan 12, 2019 18:33:00 GMT -5
Sure, that's fine. I'm just not exactly down with the assumption that a player doesn't want to play off the PVP. Death amnesia isn't about making the losing player feel better because they don't have to play off the PVP. It's actually to stop them from doing what they probably want to.
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Post by malclave on Jan 12, 2019 19:48:54 GMT -5
If you have Death-Amnesia, you don't have to prove you were killed. In fact, your character can't know they were killed. Your character has memory loss surrounding the event. That does not mean that's the only way you could have memory loss though, so your character can't know with certainty that you were killed. One purpose of Death-Amnesia is precisely so you can go on playing without having to worry about pursuing revenge for a death that you don't know happened. The only way you can know you were killed is, in fact, if someone else tells you. That means there was at least one witness. If they were killed in the PVP too then they have Death-Amnesia and can't tell you that you were killed, unless they were Raised before you were killed. You can't know for certain, but you can potentially have a good idea, if a third party saw part of the fight but then fled. I would also wonder about all the invisible NPCs in a populated area; sure, maybe they start out acting like the townspeople in an old western, heading indoors and peeking out the windows, but if a character wants to talk to them to figure out what happened are the DMs just going to have them all keep mum?
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