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Post by DOT on Jun 12, 2018 20:10:58 GMT -5
What do Thayans do with their dead? There seems to be a lot of undead going on so I'm not really sure. Let's say some enclave guards pass away after an attack form an insurgent, what happens to them? Do they get a "proper" burial or are they shipped off to the flesh pits for spare parts.
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Post by Munroe on Jun 13, 2018 1:54:39 GMT -5
I honestly wouldn't know where to look for this information. In the absence of canon information on the subject, I'm going to say what my gut tells me.
Unless you can find source that goes into this level of detail, my suggestion is to treat it this way, but this is strictly a suggestion.
I'd look at it as a cross between Mulhorandi and Utheric practices (mummification is the most obvious) and necromantic pragmatism. In other words, slaves are probably used as fodder to make mindless undead or spare parts for flesh golems and magical research, and this would go for the poorer free people of Thay too. But those who aren't slaves can probably pay to have themselves or their deceased loved ones interred and/or mummified (wrapped in preservatives, etc., not the undead kind) when they die. And, of course, some wizards (and others who can afford it) are going to pursue sentient undeath as a means to go on. Kossuth is also a major religion in Thay, so some faithful may prefer to be cremated.
Thay is in a civil war in the current year (and the past few and quite a few more), so they may not always adhere to customs either. If Szass Tam's army needs more commanders for its undead, even wealthy soldiers may not have a choice of whether they become zombie lords/skeletal champions/bone creatures/deathknights when they die. In fact, if circumstances are dire enough, Thay's necromancers may turn to previously interred and/or mummified war heroes and veterans, reanimating them as mummies or other undead to add to the ranks.
So, to summarize, I don't know where to find canon information about Thayan funerary practices, but they probably practice everything from mummification, to zombification, and cremation. Those in power likely violate the rest of the dead, both recently deceased and long-dead, if they feel their need warrants it.
If anyone has any canon sources on Thayan funeral practices, please let me know.
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Post by DOT on Jun 13, 2018 7:52:41 GMT -5
Thank you much! I’ll likely go with that
Cremation for Kossuth faithful, and for those that turn to him before death.
Flesh pits for the poor or enslaved.
Mummification for those with coin and or power.
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spyd3r97344
Proven Member
Without a copy NWN EE......
Posts: 169
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Post by spyd3r97344 on Jun 13, 2018 8:36:03 GMT -5
Your question sparked a lot of intrigue. In my searching I came to the conclusion that in thay culture many religions are in fact practiced but rarly preached. Status + Religion + last wishes + Organ doner, all have much influences end of life services. Great question!
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Post by DOT on Jun 13, 2018 11:21:52 GMT -5
Your question sparked a lot of intrigue. In my searching I came to the conclusion that in thay culture many religions are in fact practiced but rarly preached. Status + Religion + last wishes + Organ doner, all have much influences end of life services. Great question! Yeah apparently they’re pretty open as far as what’s allowed for religions. You can be a worshiper of torm, as long as you don’t disrupt the peace, and given the situation there it’s not likely one would get a that much help in Thay. I read that that and don’t restrict gods worship for their slaves, something tied into how thayans freed themselves from their own slavers
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Post by Munroe on Jun 14, 2018 18:06:21 GMT -5
I received a couple responses from players regarding this, and recommending sources. I ran a PnP campaign that was set in Thay about a year ago, just wanted to give my thoughts on such, see what you think and maybe suggest a gander at Unapproachable East (It's a good book if you've ever got the time to look through it !)
I think you're pretty much right, I don't think anything touches directly on burial in Thay but few things touch that deeply for a particular countries practices leaving that more upto a particular religion. Unapproachable East is probably the book with the most detail on Thay that I can think of and I don't recall a direct mention about burial, though it does speak of the different status between slave (property, you kill one you're expected to pay for it as you've damaged someones property) commoner (having basic protection of citizenship, not being allowed to kill each other and nobility/red wizards need to at least make up a crime you committed to do so) nobility (higher status then commoners of course and not allowed to kill each other legally though they can kill commoners with an excuse) and Red Wizard (Highest tier of status, outside of the zulkirs, tharchions, khazark) and the basic laws of Thay as well as covering the religions of Thay.
The law IIRCly that most directly relates to such is probably that those found inside a red wizards estate are subject of painful magical experiments (which could be necromancy and animation), I believe it's quite likely criminals might end up with animation after execution in this case.
I'd of likely considered the fact slaves are basically property there's a good chance that upon death (or unruliness) they'd be animated to continue working, acting as undead guards or being thrown into an undead legion. Under the mention of religion the book mentions that the Red Wizards know that there are times when any god even good aligned gods can come in handy and they don't advocate burning of bridges for such. I'd of personally said that besides slaves, criminals and enemies who are quite likely up for experimentation and animation, their citizens and above (Commoners, Nobility and Red Wizards) would likely fall into the burial rights of their particular faith.
Anyway, I hope if nothing else it's a thought provoking read.
FM.
This one from mandene I find particularly interesting, as there's reference made to the tombs in Thay. I feel like, while this doesn't cover funeral practices/rites, it can probably be taken as a look into the burial of the wealthy. I haven't been able to find any burial practices, but I don't think Thayans would make "free men" into undead, unless they can get away with it. Usually in Thay, they have huge numbers of slaves (monstrous and human) and monstrous mercenaries at their disposal. As slaves are considered property and not people - you can do whatever you want with them. This is however, speculation based on the information I have on Thayan laws and practices.
The best source that even hints on death in Thay is in the 2E Spellbound Boxed Set. In the description of Bezantur you can find these 2 small pieces of information. Page 33: This leads me to believe, that while life is dangerous in Thay, and you will be easily killed - the faith in Kelemvor and Jergal would point that the majority of population isn't playing around with undeath and aren't being made undead.
However..... Page 37:
This one describes that people don't always wait for others to die before stuffing them into tombs and graves. Maybe some of these were already undead to begin with. However - this proves that people do indeed get burials and aren't just used for spare parts.
There's no description of the funerals themselves. I would agree with you that they are some kind of iteration of Mulhorandi/Untheric practices. Considering that the vast majority of the people living in Thay are Rashemi (most of commoners are of Rashemi origin. It's even said that only Mulan can become Red Wizards, but once you've shaved your head, nobody can really see the difference and everyone pretends you're the right sort of human), probably some of old Rashami, barbaric practices have been incorporated. And considering Faerûnian and not Mulan deities are worshipped - Chondathan/Damaran practices have probably sipped into the society through religious conversions.
My original reply said that I felt slaves would be used as fodder for undead and experimentation, and I still stand by that. I also said it would go for the poorer free people of Thay too. There seems to be some contention in that regard, but the next part specified that those who aren't slaves can probably pay to have themselves or their deceased loved ones interred and/or mummified (wrapped in preservatives, etc., not the undead kind) when they die. This, to me, is basically saying "the body becomes the property of the state unless the family can afford to tend to it or the deceased has already paid for death expenses." In Thay, I expect a body that reverts to property of the state is used, not discarded (buried/cremated). This is how I reached my logic that the poorest of the free people have their bodies used as undead and/or experimentation. It's simply a matter of who owns the body. If the family is willing to burn or bury the body (paying via labor of the burial itself) then that is possibly one form of the poor not becoming spare parts. But, again, that's just my interpretation, and yours may vary.
Suffice to say, Mandene has provided some 2E information on tombs in Thay though, so at least there's some information about it.
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