DM Q&A: Animal aspects. Empathy, Companion, Language, Awaken
Jun 19, 2016 23:11:07 GMT -5
appleseedy, emeraldsnowx, and 1 more like this
Post by Munroe on Jun 19, 2016 23:11:07 GMT -5
This is series of questions I fielded recently about Animal Empathy, Animal Companions, the absence of the Animal language widget on FRC, and the druid spell awaken, how it functions in D&D compared to how it is handled on FRC. The players requested that the details be shared publicly as well. The best way I saw to do that is as a DM Q&A. That's really what it was, but handled via PMs.
Both rangers and druids have the ability to call animals in the wild to aid them through Empathy. Now to me in relation to rangers since they cannot speak animal or shift to become the animal I would guess they could project a brief image
of what they need. This has been used elsewhere.
So in this setting exactly how does one explain this abilty if they cannot speak animal?
Thank you in advance
Rangers and druids do not speak Animal as a language. Druids speak the secret language of Druidic with other druids but it also does not serve as a language understood by animals. Nor is Sylvan a language understood by animals. Animals do not share a common language. FRC actually had the Animal language widget, just like every other server that uses the DMFI Tools script set, because the Animal language widget is a standard part of the language widget system included in the DMFI Tools. However, we changed our Animal widget to the Druidic widget and limited it to druids to be more source-correct. Many (most?) server administrations may not even realize that the Animal language isn't actually a thing. (The easy logic goes that "It's there in the language set, it must be a thing, right?") Anyway, Animal language isn't a thing. You can blame me for pointing that out once upon a time.
There is a spell, speak with animals, that is a bard 3, druid 1, ranger 1 spell in tabletop D&D. It allows conversing with animals for 1 minute per caster level. The description of its functionality is as follows:
Animal Empathy does not grant you the ability to speak to animals or any kind of telepathy with animals, it represents special understanding of animals that helps you present yourself to them in a way that makes you seem less hostile and more approachable. It's a skill that helps the character convey kinship with the animal, but it doesn't enslave the animal or communicate complex ideas.
In 3.5e D&D the skill Animal Empathy is replaced by the class ability Wild Empathy that druids and rangers receive. Its descriptions for both druid and ranger follow.
Note that the wild empathy feature is indicated as an (Ex) ability. This means it is an Extraordinary ability. Extraordinary abilities are non-magical in function. The other two kinds of abilities are (Sp) and (Su), Spell-like and Supernatural respectively. Extraordinary abilities are non-magical and should function in antimagic fields and dead magic zones, while spell-like and supernatural abilities are magical and do not function in antimagic fields or dead magic zones.
Now in regards to emoting with animal companions, with Marister's wolf I have emoted howling, wag tail, sniffs and whimper, nudges. This is acceptable?I'm going to try to take this one question at a time.
Animal Empathy works the same for druids and rangers. It is a non-magical ability that is learned as part of being a druid or ranger. And, since it is a skill in NWN, it is more or less learned, depending on how many skill points are invested. In Neverwinter Nights, it is a class-restricted skill, as Perform and Use Magic Device also are, but it's still a learned skill. It's just considered a specialization of the classes to which it is restricted. Learning it would be done the same way a character would learn other things in the class like increased base attack bonus, spellcraft, or lore. These things are learned through practice and study. As the character levels up and has more ranks in the skill, they've done it more, have more experience with it, and become better at it.
I don't understand your question about the emotes, so I'm going to answer it both ways I can interpret it. It's fine to emote your animal companion howling, wagging its tail, sniffing, and whimpering, nudging, and doing other animal-like things. The other way I interpret that question is that you're asking whether it's OK that your character do those things when empathizing when your animal. That's fine too. It doesn't communicate complex ideas to the animal, but it can build kinship with the animal and be a means of expressing the connection with it.
As for druids communicating with animals while using Wild Shape (Su), the wording in the effect allows for it (Player's Handbook v.3.5, page 37).
Unless there's a difference in the available animal companions between rangers and druids, the animal companion functions basically the same. A ranger progresses more slowly with his animal companion than a druid does. The animal companion is a trained animal of its kind, either because the player-character has mastered it or befriended it, and progresses in hitdice as an animal companion, advancing with the druid or ranger, instead of being limited to the normal progression of an animal of its type. There's not a lot of explanation for the how of this except that, through its bond with its druid and/or ranger, it is an exceptional example of its creature kind. Animal companions are not smarter than other creatures of their kind, but they tend to be a whole lot tougher because they've been combat hardened through travel with the druid or ranger that has them as a companion. Animal Companion class feature of druid and ranger is also an extraordinary (non-magical) ability.
The spell Awaken in Neverwinter Nights does not function like the actual spell awaken, and it should not be RPed to function as it. The actual spell awaken cannot be cast on animal companions and makes animals sentient magical beasts. Such a sentient animal cannot serve as an animal companion. The spell Awaken in NWN is just a temporary physical buff for the animal companion. It shouldn't have been called Awaken, but instead something like "Enhance." The DMs actually discussed how to handle NWN's Awaken not that long ago. The conclusion reached is that they're not the same spell. The awaken spell in D&D is not the spell you have available in Neverwinter Nights.
If the awaken spell from D&D were to be done in FRC, it would be a DMed event in its own right. The casting time of the D&D spell awaken is twenty-four hours and the duration is instantaneous. Again, the casting of the spell takes twenty-four hours. For our purposes, that makes it a ritual, not within the scope of a common spell. It is also an instantaneous effect that cannot be dispelled, permanently creating a sentient magical beast that cannot be an animal companion. That NPC sentient magical beast exists in the game world forever after (or at least until killed).
I asked Penguin to chime in too, and here's what he had to say, with a bit more from me mixed in.
This still does not give awakened creatures the ability to speak, or think in complex sequences, as such reasoning is a function of more intelligent beings.I think he actually meant "animal companion" there, not "awakened creatures." The animal companions are not awakened creatures. The awaken spell as it is available to cast on animal companions in Neverwinter Nights does not create sentient awakened creatures.
The analogy he makes to sheepdogs works well though. The druid or ranger can teach their animal companion additional commands beyond those an animal of their same intelligence could usually be taught. In tabletop D&D this is represented by the animal companion knowing more Animal Tricks with the Handle Animal skill than other trained animals. Usually, the number of "tricks" (commands) a trained animal can learn is fixed at a maximum for its intelligence score, but the animal companion knows a number of additional free bonus tricks, and this number of bonus tricks increases with the level of the druid or ranger. (It goes from one bonus trick at druid level 1 to seven bonus tricks at druid level 20.)
Switching gears, the question was also asked about roleplaying an animal companion's injuries.
HOWEVER, it's really up to the druid or ranger how they're roleplaying their animal companion's injury. So you can irritate someone by insisting their character's animal companion has a different injury than the kind they're treating it as having. In other words, your character can probably sense when an animal is injured by its body language, but you as a player shouldn't jump to roleplaying an animal companion's injury since its injury really isn't up to you.
"Your wolf seems like it might be hurt" is one thing, and opens the person up to say how it's hurt. "Your wolf is favoring its left foreleg. I think it might be broken." is a completely different thing. It reaches conclusions that you should probably leave for the other player to reach, express, or emote. If the other character is emoting through their animal companion and the RP is that you're reaching that diagnosis versus their emotes, that's also a different game than you seeing "Badly Injured" over its head and dictating its injuries.
I also looked through the DM Q&A to see what had been said about related topics before. The information below regarding worgs and winter wolves being immune to animal empathy is still accurate. Z'ress hyenas are also immune to animal empathy, but not because they're sentient. Rather they're under the magical command of Z'ress and animal empathy should not trump that. Leucrotta are also very intelligent and should be immune to animal empathy. I'm not sure if they're currently immune on FRC or not.
I'm just including these last two quotes here as a matter of historical reference.
I think that's everything. As this is the DM Q&A, if you have any follow-up questions please ask.
Jun 8, 2016 6:49:21 GMT -5 Munroe said:
I'm replying to both of you together here since this seems to be the same conversation and I'd rather have your inquiries and my responses centrally located. I didn't see a public thread about the topic. If there is one, I'm happy to re-post my reply there. Jun 8, 2016 0:38:38 GMT -5 A Terrible Username said:
I don't know if others are posting or pming you too maybe. Had an argument of what exactly AE is. Would like lore on it, official word on what it is, how it works etc. Greatly appreciated! If it's posted publicly questioning probably just easier to post the lore there and i'll see it. but either way. Thanks a bunch as always ever knowing lore master :PJun 8, 2016 0:51:58 GMT -5 Animayhem said:
I have played rangers elsewhere and they have had the ability to speak to animals using the animal language. Where druids knew both druidic and animal.Both rangers and druids have the ability to call animals in the wild to aid them through Empathy. Now to me in relation to rangers since they cannot speak animal or shift to become the animal I would guess they could project a brief image
of what they need. This has been used elsewhere.
So in this setting exactly how does one explain this abilty if they cannot speak animal?
Thank you in advance
There is a spell, speak with animals, that is a bard 3, druid 1, ranger 1 spell in tabletop D&D. It allows conversing with animals for 1 minute per caster level. The description of its functionality is as follows:
Standard animals have an intelligence score of no more than 2 in D&D 3.5e so you're unlikely to find any that are particularly useful for deep conversation. There were some animals with Intelligence greater than 2 in D&D 3e, but they were reclassified as Magical Beasts in D&D 3.5e. The difference in Intelligence is one of the distinctions that can be made between an Animal and a Magical Beast. Some Magical Beasts have Intelligence in the 1 and 2 range, but they have other attributes that set them apart from standard animals (magical powers or obvious abnormalities, generally).You can comprehend and communicate with animals. You are able to ask questions of and receive answers from animals, although the spell doesn’t make them any more friendly or cooperative than normal. Furthermore, wary and cunning animals are likely to be terse and evasive, while the more stupid ones make inane comments. If an animal is friendly toward you, it may do some favor or service for you.
Animal Empathy does not grant you the ability to speak to animals or any kind of telepathy with animals, it represents special understanding of animals that helps you present yourself to them in a way that makes you seem less hostile and more approachable. It's a skill that helps the character convey kinship with the animal, but it doesn't enslave the animal or communicate complex ideas.
In 3.5e D&D the skill Animal Empathy is replaced by the class ability Wild Empathy that druids and rangers receive. Its descriptions for both druid and ranger follow.
The wild empathy ability functions the same for both druid and ranger. There are a few subtle differences in the wording but they don't impact the way it functions. Animal empathy worked roughly the same in 3.0 except it required the druid or ranger to invest skill points into the ability, and it was a class-restricted skill. 3.5e did away with class-restricted skills so turned animal empathy into the wild empathy class feature with a class level check.Wild Empathy (Ex): A druid can use body language, vocalizations, and demeanor to improve the attitude of an animal (such as a bear or a monitor lizard). This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person (See Chapter 4: Skills). The druid rolls 1d20 and adds her druid level and her Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
To use wild empathy, the druid and the animal must be able to study each other, which means they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
A druid can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (such as a basilisk or a girallon), but she takes a -4 penalty on the check.Wild Empathy (Ex): A ranger can use body language, vocalizations, and demeanor to improve the attitude of an animal (such as a bear or a monitor lizard). This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person (see page 72). The ranger rolls 1d20 and adds his ranger level and his Charisma bonus to determine the wild empathy check result. The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
To use wild empathy, the ranger and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal visibility conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute, but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
The ranger can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (such as a basilisk or a girallon), but he takes a -4 penalty on the check.
Note that the wild empathy feature is indicated as an (Ex) ability. This means it is an Extraordinary ability. Extraordinary abilities are non-magical in function. The other two kinds of abilities are (Sp) and (Su), Spell-like and Supernatural respectively. Extraordinary abilities are non-magical and should function in antimagic fields and dead magic zones, while spell-like and supernatural abilities are magical and do not function in antimagic fields or dead magic zones.
Jun 9, 2016 3:40:56 GMT -5 Munroe said:
Jun 8, 2016 9:41:32 GMT -5 Animayhem said:
So then if I understand this, AE works the same for druids and rangers. So the only way one could actually "talk" to an animal, aside from a spell which is not in game, would be to actually shift into that animal. So given the fact it is an extraordinary ability, how would one have gone about it to learn it then? Or is it just a given that it is a gift for the gods?Now in regards to emoting with animal companions, with Marister's wolf I have emoted howling, wag tail, sniffs and whimper, nudges. This is acceptable?
Animal Empathy works the same for druids and rangers. It is a non-magical ability that is learned as part of being a druid or ranger. And, since it is a skill in NWN, it is more or less learned, depending on how many skill points are invested. In Neverwinter Nights, it is a class-restricted skill, as Perform and Use Magic Device also are, but it's still a learned skill. It's just considered a specialization of the classes to which it is restricted. Learning it would be done the same way a character would learn other things in the class like increased base attack bonus, spellcraft, or lore. These things are learned through practice and study. As the character levels up and has more ranks in the skill, they've done it more, have more experience with it, and become better at it.
I don't understand your question about the emotes, so I'm going to answer it both ways I can interpret it. It's fine to emote your animal companion howling, wagging its tail, sniffing, and whimpering, nudging, and doing other animal-like things. The other way I interpret that question is that you're asking whether it's OK that your character do those things when empathizing when your animal. That's fine too. It doesn't communicate complex ideas to the animal, but it can build kinship with the animal and be a means of expressing the connection with it.
As for druids communicating with animals while using Wild Shape (Su), the wording in the effect allows for it (Player's Handbook v.3.5, page 37).
A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)
Jun 8, 2016 12:49:49 GMT -5 A Terrible Username said:
Thank you. That's the other thing actually curious about Animal companions? Differences between rangers and druids. And differences between animal companions and other animals of it's same kind. And that poor butchered spell awaken... are we only allowed to play it really as nwn awaken? The spell Awaken in Neverwinter Nights does not function like the actual spell awaken, and it should not be RPed to function as it. The actual spell awaken cannot be cast on animal companions and makes animals sentient magical beasts. Such a sentient animal cannot serve as an animal companion. The spell Awaken in NWN is just a temporary physical buff for the animal companion. It shouldn't have been called Awaken, but instead something like "Enhance." The DMs actually discussed how to handle NWN's Awaken not that long ago. The conclusion reached is that they're not the same spell. The awaken spell in D&D is not the spell you have available in Neverwinter Nights.
If the awaken spell from D&D were to be done in FRC, it would be a DMed event in its own right. The casting time of the D&D spell awaken is twenty-four hours and the duration is instantaneous. Again, the casting of the spell takes twenty-four hours. For our purposes, that makes it a ritual, not within the scope of a common spell. It is also an instantaneous effect that cannot be dispelled, permanently creating a sentient magical beast that cannot be an animal companion. That NPC sentient magical beast exists in the game world forever after (or at least until killed).
I asked Penguin to chime in too, and here's what he had to say, with a bit more from me mixed in.
Jun 12, 2016 12:58:28 GMT -5 Penguin said:
Thanks Munroe for throwing this my direction. Overall, I fully agree with how you have laid out matters in this discussion. One facet I will elaborate on slightly is the druid's/ranger's animal companion. It is accepted practice on NWN that the bond and understanding between the character and their animal companion allows for slightly more advance communication than between a standard creature, along the lines of a shepherd working with a well trained sheep dog. This generally is portrayed along the lines of being able to give simple verbal commands such as "wait for my signal", "come now", "attack x target." It also leads to a greater "empathy" (pardon the redundancy) between the character and their companion, such that the companion is able to pick up on emotional states, respond to their human/oid friend's statements when such statements are expressions of an emotional state such as disgust, boredom, etc. In essence, the epitome of every "perfect pet" story one might have read. This still does not give awakened creatures the ability to speak, or think in complex sequences, as such reasoning is a function of more intelligent beings.
Jun 13, 2016 10:10:29 GMT -5 Munroe said:
Jun 12, 2016 12:58:28 GMT -5 Penguin said:
This still does not give awakened creatures the ability to speak, or think in complex sequences, as such reasoning is a function of more intelligent beings.The analogy he makes to sheepdogs works well though. The druid or ranger can teach their animal companion additional commands beyond those an animal of their same intelligence could usually be taught. In tabletop D&D this is represented by the animal companion knowing more Animal Tricks with the Handle Animal skill than other trained animals. Usually, the number of "tricks" (commands) a trained animal can learn is fixed at a maximum for its intelligence score, but the animal companion knows a number of additional free bonus tricks, and this number of bonus tricks increases with the level of the druid or ranger. (It goes from one bonus trick at druid level 1 to seven bonus tricks at druid level 20.)
Jun 13, 2016 21:20:32 GMT -5 Penguin said:
While I did use the word "awaken" purposefully, it was to specifically point out that the NWN spell "awaken" confers no additional intelligence nor capabilities on the companion than physical enhancements. In the past, there has been some confusion in characters as to if the spell "awaken" also conferred on their companion the ability to speak, both with themself and other characters. So in sum, yes, the NWN spell "awaken" does not allow such. I know we've already determined that this. I simply wanted to clarify why I chose to use the name of the NWN spell in this instance.Switching gears, the question was also asked about roleplaying an animal companion's injuries.
Jun 13, 2016 10:40:50 GMT -5 Animayhem said:
This makes sense and so gives us a bit more room to emote our feelings to the animal. I have a question though, can rangers and druids pick up on the distress of another's companion or summoned animal, like it being injured? Or could something emoted be like "ranger companion sniffs another's and whimpers." Whimpers in this case meaning distress. The ranger/druid then says to the other, "your companion seems in distress" Or is it only known to the companion's person? (yes I know ooc that injury stats show on portraits just wondering how to play it with animals)Jun 13, 2016 11:06:28 GMT -5 Munroe said:
A ranger or druid is not only sensitive to their on animal companion. The training with animal empathy might allow a ranger or druid to recognize an injury in another animal companion, just as with any other wild or domesticated animal. HOWEVER, it's really up to the druid or ranger how they're roleplaying their animal companion's injury. So you can irritate someone by insisting their character's animal companion has a different injury than the kind they're treating it as having. In other words, your character can probably sense when an animal is injured by its body language, but you as a player shouldn't jump to roleplaying an animal companion's injury since its injury really isn't up to you.
Jun 13, 2016 11:10:42 GMT -5 Munroe said:
In other words, tread lightly."Your wolf seems like it might be hurt" is one thing, and opens the person up to say how it's hurt. "Your wolf is favoring its left foreleg. I think it might be broken." is a completely different thing. It reaches conclusions that you should probably leave for the other player to reach, express, or emote. If the other character is emoting through their animal companion and the RP is that you're reaching that diagnosis versus their emotes, that's also a different game than you seeing "Badly Injured" over its head and dictating its injuries.
I also looked through the DM Q&A to see what had been said about related topics before. The information below regarding worgs and winter wolves being immune to animal empathy is still accurate. Z'ress hyenas are also immune to animal empathy, but not because they're sentient. Rather they're under the magical command of Z'ress and animal empathy should not trump that. Leucrotta are also very intelligent and should be immune to animal empathy. I'm not sure if they're currently immune on FRC or not.
There is at least one older post talking about Animal Language widget and Druidic widget, mentioning that Druidic replaced Animal language. There's even an old one that says Animal Language widget should be replaced with Druidic but, as of that time, had not been yet. Its use was discouraged at that time.Animal empathy is supposed to work on animals and, with a mild penalty, on magical beasts that have an Intelligence score less than three.
Neverwinter Nights is blind to a creature's INT score when it comes to animal empathy, probably because no creature can have any score lower than 3 in NWN, even animals and magical beasts. NWN allows Animal Empathy to work on any Magical Beast regardless of how intelligent it is. This has now been modified somewhat on FRC for certain creatures.
Worgs are intelligent and evil magical beasts. They have their own language (which probably sounds mostly like howls and yips to non-worgs), and some exceptional worgs can speak Goblin or Common as well.
Winter Wolves, also evil magical beasts, are also now immune to animal empathy. Winter wolves are even smarter than worgs, though I'll leave off saying what languages they speak.
There are some other Intelligent and Evil magical beasts in the module, some even smarter than worgs and winter wolves, that could probably do with gaining immunity to Animal Empathy, but these are the only two that have been changed at this time, because they're two that are most frequently mistreated as animals.
I'm just including these last two quotes here as a matter of historical reference.
The content of this last post is definitely out of date, as indicated by the more recent reply quoted above it. But you can see even in 2006 the Animal Language widget was being brought up as an issue.As far as I'm aware, the Animal widget has been renamed as Druidic. If you do not have a widget for Animal, you should not be speaking it. (I believe rangers and druids speak Animal by default if they don't activate a widget.) If you do have a widget for Animal, you should contact a DM because you shouldn't have a widget for Animal. Animals always have an INT score of 1 or 2, they don't have a universal language. The only way to speak with animals is via magic. Druids and rangers have animal empathy, not animal telepathy.
Only druids should be speaking Druidic.
Druidic is a SECRET language that only druids may learn, so no other classes should be speaking Druidic, but as to how secretive they are about speaking it in public, of that I'm uncertain. I would think they're quite secretive since teaching Druidic to non-druids has a punishment of death.
There is an "Animal" language token. I don't think it should exist, but it does. Druids should get Druidic but it currently does not exist. Druids can still RP knowing Druidic, however, since they should all know it. Rangers should not know Druidic.
Nobody should get "Animal" so I usually don't mess with it. By the Monster Manual 3.5 definition of the Animal Type, animals (unless otherwise noted in the creature entry) have an INT of less than 3. They likely aren't much for conversation. Tressym, according to FRCS, is a tiny animal with an INT of 12, but it is also noted that they have their own language and don't speak human languages. By 3.5e rules, I believe they would be of Type Magical Beast instead of Type Animal.
Thieves Cant should NOT be free to all who have the rogue class. Unfortunately, the script builds it in. This may be true of Animal for druids and rangers too.
For those druids who would RP knowing Druidic (all first level druids should know Druidic), remember that teaching it to non-druids is forbidden. Druidic has its own alphabet.
I think that's everything. As this is the DM Q&A, if you have any follow-up questions please ask.