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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Jun 22, 2006 14:16:48 GMT -5
We are truly begining the very final stages of development for FRC. One thing that has been brought up is possibly moving the module start location closer to the center of the module. There is a plan on the table to make Suzail the starting point for good PC's and Marsember or the Thayan Enclave for evil PC's... neutral PC's would have a choice between the start points.
Naturally the way spawns are presented would be changed too, to support the new starting areas. So, have a vote and discuss it here.
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Jun 22, 2006 14:29:13 GMT -5
Being that Suzail is the capital and I believe a port town it would make sence if the starting point could be there. The whole "big city" concept where folks can go there to find work and trade.
My only qualm with having "evil" starting points is that it can be a little spoilerific for those wanting to hide thier evil alignments. Too much potential for metagame situations.
Good PC: "So where did you just walk from?"
Evil PC: "Marsember."
Good PC: "Oh." *starts giving the cold shoulder*
Bad on the Good PC for metagaming, but the proverbial cat is out of the bag on an OOC level.
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Post by heimdall on Jun 22, 2006 14:34:53 GMT -5
OR - - Good PC: "So where did you just walk from?" Evil PC: *lies* "Immersea." Good PC: "Oh? I heard they have great pies there..." Good point though - the metgaming is an issue that raises up a concern. Not that we have any metagamers here.
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Post by MTGPackFoils on Jun 22, 2006 14:50:57 GMT -5
While I would love to see the starting location change to Suzail would all evil characters have to start in the same location?
It would not be...wise...for Banites and Crycists to start in the same location.
I like the idea of the two cities (Suzail and Marsember), but from what I know about them neither of them are necessarily one alignment or the other.
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Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Jun 22, 2006 14:52:16 GMT -5
*pulls out list of metagamers and list of non metagamers, noticing only one name on the list of non-metas that happens to be a penguin* Hmmm... But yeah... Remember, you seperate the alignments, it'll end up Meta-city.
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Post by vercingettorix on Jun 22, 2006 15:00:43 GMT -5
Personally, I think the start location should be Suzail, makes more sense to me. As for separate start locations, I can see Jen's point about metagaming. I personally do not care if evil characters start in the same locations, but it wouldn't bother me if they were in separate areas either. Not much of an opinion in that regard.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Jun 22, 2006 15:07:42 GMT -5
*smiles evilly to himself* Yes ... I like the idea of suzail as a starting point. Very very much so.
As for seperating the evil and good, well it really isnt that big of a deal imo, because at this point the player base is so widely ranged in level that even if someone starts in the thayan enclave, people are not going to necessarily know. Perhaps when the next FRC comes around that may be a problem. Cause as soon as the person hits level 5, and encounters around suzail are levelled down then they should be able to make it there and begin mingling. The only prob i see for seperating the player base is that these days, i havent seen a really large evil presence on the server, so those new people that want to play evil characters may have a hard time finding others to group with. This may discourage them, while in the meantime, all the good guys are running around with a bunch of buddies. Course, I could be mistaken since i havent been playing a lot lately.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Jun 22, 2006 15:09:27 GMT -5
Actually we are probably going to have a system where players can enter to virtually any town/city/guild hall in the game from the welcome room, so, if that helps the idea go down better...
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Post by ShadowCatJen on Jun 22, 2006 15:21:41 GMT -5
Actually we are probably going to have a system where players can enter to virtually any town/city/guild hall in the game from the welcome room, so, if that helps the idea go down better... It all sort of goes back to that discussion about starting points in general. About how no matter where you have it people are going to congregate there just for the fact that it's where all the new faces show up first. Switching from Isinhold to Suzail is what I voted for because there are reasons for both high level and low level characters to be in "the city". I also do like the idea, though, of being able to choose where you start (mostly if you're of a higher level). Especially if you were in a far off area and a server reset is needed. Much easier to be able to just get to a place close to where you were via the welcome room rather then having to ask a DM to port you.
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Post by vercingettorix on Jun 22, 2006 15:25:56 GMT -5
I also do like the idea, though, of being able to choose where you start (mostly if you're of a higher level). Especially if you were in a far off area and a server reset is needed. Much easier to be able to just get to a place close to where you were via the welcome room rather then having to ask a DM to port you. Ayup, I agree on this.
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Post by Talus on Jun 22, 2006 15:59:17 GMT -5
I like the idea of Suzail/Marsember. And maybe you only start in the evil/good city on your first log in with your character. Then gear thos cities to that alignements. But I would say suzail, and Marsember are already well suited.
Oh and as for the evil presence on the server. My poor fire cleric knows first hand that they are on and strong.
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Post by soulfien on Jun 22, 2006 20:11:59 GMT -5
I've always disliked starting in small dive hamlets. Here's why...
1. No good shops. You show up and you have to gain a few levels before you can go out and buy things you need (like when you had to buy dyes in Redmist because Isinhold had the worst colors) Weapons and armour is another thing. A lot of good quality designer stuff couldn't be bought in Isinhold- Talking appearance wise, not magical. Unless you had a good crafting skill (which you don't at lvl 1, and good dyes, you couldn't look good)
2. No reason to go to the small hamlets. When people travel to a region they usually go to the big cities. Isinhold just isn't set up for visitors.
3. Squating. People learn to feel comfortable in familiar territory and stay there. Isinhold isn't large enough for DM events and DM's usually toss stuff in places where people frequent. Isinhold can't continue to defend against all the evil that the DM's toss in.
Starting in Suzail is an awesome idea. I love the city. It's got multiple inns that rarely get used, good shops that can support high level PC's as well so that enables them to support the squaters. We just need to add in some more designer low level gear. It's a perfect oppertunity to get out those new colors NWN added into the toolset! Also it's big! It's huge! Plenty of things to do and places to hang out! No more congregating in the inn or at the fire of Isinhold!
And From Suzail you can go anywhere! It's location is very nicely placed.
Now, I hate to put our Isinhold Innkeeper out of buisness, but it's time for us to move on! He was never set up to hold so many of us anyway. I'm sure he could use a break!
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Post by soulfien on Jun 22, 2006 20:54:06 GMT -5
One thing on the Evil starting places... Having good PC's start at Suzail and evil PC's start at the Enclave, for example, creates some unnesesary problems. Not if it's optional, but if it's mandatory then it's problimatic. If Hrothgar (not that he's evil or anything ) and Garistan are doing buisness together and the server crashes then Garistan has to wait for Hrothgar to find his way back over to him to conclude buisness. If the server crashes and you wish to go to Suzail where the action is then you have to either pay about 400 gold to travel there or walk which could take an hour. I've played on another server that seperated good and evil like this and it took an hour and a half to walk the distance. If evil gets the option to start at the Enclave or Suzail then this isn't a problem. Besides, evil people visit Suzail too Big city and all, I'm sure there's a thieve's guild!
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Post by heimdall on Jun 22, 2006 20:59:53 GMT -5
I can't think of anywhere from Suzail that would cost 400 gold to actually reach...unless you were heading back to Isinhold...which would be 250. Not to mention there is a door to Suzail in the welcome room already. And either way, it's a moot point because..... Actually we are probably going to have a system where players can enter to virtually any town/city/guild hall in the game from the welcome room, so, if that helps the idea go down better...
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Post by heimdall on Jun 22, 2006 21:00:29 GMT -5
That's right....I'm quoting myself now! mmhmm....I said that!
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Post by soulfien on Jun 22, 2006 21:25:41 GMT -5
Well, keep in mind that I haven't played in a while so I've forgotten the exact caravan fees But the point of that post was just to express my views towards evil vs. good starting points
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Post by heimdall on Jun 22, 2006 22:32:26 GMT -5
Well...if it ends up Suzail & Marsember...the walk is only about ten minutes or so...and if it were due to a reset you know we'd all forgive the //OOC - runnin to where I was before the crash! But to me Suzail and The Enclave are just too far apart to ever work effectively. And I do 'think' that the 'starting area' is only reflective of your first log in (or perhaps until you reach level 2 - I don't want to release any spoilers tho) - after that there will be a system to be able to log in dang near anywhere. I want to believe that our solid player base will not be causing metagaming issues based off where characters start in the mod, and honestly - if neutral aligned characters have the choice to start at either location, you really don't have 'that' much to go on. Except of course if they have X's, V's or Z's in their name.....then they are obvously evil!
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Post by davrosmandrake on Jun 23, 2006 4:07:06 GMT -5
As one of the new generation of pain in the butt meta...err players, I figured I should put my 30 lions in.
First of I think the idea of of seperating evil from good is a silly idea. Being forced to an area just because your a goody goody wousey Paladin who wants to detect evil on everyone and then beat them to a pulp for not seeing the world in your way is hardly fair. You should LET the Paladin into the "evil" area so that the people that frequent there can show them the error of there ways, preferable by stringing them up from a tree by there virtue..
I like the idea of an open area that allows the player to pick there starting point and leave it up to them to 'role-play' where it is that they are starting. ie going back to where they last were. However it also gives them the freedom to 'tell' there buddie players from the welcome area and then get near to them for that chance encounter. After all not everyone is an unemployed layabout like me with hours of time on there hands, they might only have a couple of hours to play and want to get the quality gamming time in with there mates.
All that said though, forceing good and evil respawns to certain areas might be an idea. Tie the evil/good/neutral soul to a specific location rather than the physical body.
Does that make sence of have i just drunk to much caffine again
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Post by MTGPackFoils on Jun 23, 2006 5:53:39 GMT -5
All that said though, forceing good and evil respawns to certain areas might be an idea. Tie the evil/good/neutral soul to a specific location rather than the physical body. Does that make sence of have i just drunk to much caffine again Not to drive this off topic...but I've mentioned before somewhere that we should have an option to respawn at the point of death (very good RP if with others because it would appear that you had just been "knocked out"), or get taken to a temple of the players previous chosing (such as respawning at the temple of one's god or whatnot). ...but yeah...this has been discussed somewhere. Perhaps we can revisit this topic again in that or another thread? ;D
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Post by soulfien on Jun 23, 2006 5:57:30 GMT -5
Before making this choice players would do well to first evaluate the location of their guild/temple to avoid being stranded Worshipers of Mystra had better be able to slay a giant or two before respawning at their temple Or have enough gold for the caravan ride They do have an optional system where the PC gets to make that choice after arriving at said location, but I've never seen it actually work. It was installed on an old server I used to play on, but the staff coudln't figure out how to make it work.
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Post by Aodhan the Unusual on Jun 23, 2006 11:24:15 GMT -5
The only problem with people being raised by their gods is 1) Some gods don't bring people back to life. They come back to un-life.
2) A good portion of dieties cannot be found because, let's face it, they're evil. Now if you wanted to take someone all the way to the Thayan Enclave to the temple they have there, you can get most people to rez, but there are a few that aren't there.
3) Where are the temples to elven gods?
4) Once again, metagaming. Last thing "Mr. Evil" needs is for a cleric to says something like "I'm sorry, his soul is too corrupted for me to bring back to this plane" to seriously ruin Mr. Evil's good time in hiding his alignment.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Jun 23, 2006 11:48:13 GMT -5
First off we should have the new "Cormyr Border" system in by Monday. This won't be with start points in Suzail, but your character will be required to get an adventuring charter before they can enter Cormyr...
Once this is in and debugged I will be working to make Suzail the module start point. How soon will this happen? Probably another couple of weeks after the border system. In the meantime, we will be working on the portal in the welcome room that will allow established PC's to enter the game pretty much wherever they choose. If we can work out a decent system for somewhat randomly respawning PC's after they are killed, we might do something with that if we can figure out a way to foil would be meta-gamers.
Cheers!
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Post by Hackmaster on Jun 28, 2006 13:44:04 GMT -5
I am reserved to the idea of evil starting in one city and good in another as they are all milling about in every village, town, and city. If drow existed I could see them starting in the underdark and having to find their way out into the world regardless of alignment. Other then that one exception which don't exist no need in sending evil and good to their perspective corners.
As for being raised, imo their should be maybe three temples that a player could potentially choose to be raised to. An semi-evil one where as long as they hear the jingle of your coin they got no problem with you showing up and only evil characters would have the choice to go there, a neutral temple that anyone can show up at. Hence evil...good....neutral....show up there and who's to say what alignment you are? Last a good temple where your goodies have an option to go to.
Neutral characters would only get one choice and thats the neutral temple....why? Cause it stops those meta-gaming fence squatters who think they will choose neutral and reap all the benefits. I could see it now I will choose neutral so I have the choice of all three temples so I can cause havoc with what ever side I am bent towards hating. Imagine them respawning and inside stands some newb evil guy buying a few potions and the neutral just walking up and causing trouble right off the bat cause well....he's in an evil temple after all...he must be evil!
The evil temple though if it was put in would obviously not be out in the open maybe in the docks....in a sewer or something....maybe even just some priest that lives in the sewer and talks to evil aligned people and tells anyone else I got nothing to say to you pal....push on. That way anyone coming out of the sewers could have just been hunting. No goodies hanging out to see the next evil guy cause maybe it's a good guy that went to kill a few rats in the city sewers.
This should make it to where you can keep everyone separated on a death to respawn....evil people don't have to be embarrassed spawning next to the do gooders any more and if the evil priest is in a sewer where any manner of people and alignment bent will run by or near him nobody can really meta-game what they have no clue of knowing. Hmmm I just had another idea maybe the temple is in the sewers...but not accessible by anyone....only evil spawns there when they die....when they leave they transfer to say inside that rough and tumble inn the Ogre one...maybe at the front door so it looks like they are just walking into the inn or out of it. Then the priest will never be seen by anyone but evil characters and only is accessible when you first respawn...probably don't even have to sell nothing. Evil characters just buy supplies from whoever anyways. Just a spot in transition so they don't have to wake up next to pure heart the pure who thinks all are evil and now I got you dead to rights cause you was forced to spawn next to my cleric and I totally did a detect alignment on you! haha
Just my buck fifty on it.
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Post by DM the Usurper on Jun 28, 2006 14:02:53 GMT -5
Hey buddy...we got a 2 cent salary cap here. *gives back a $1.48*
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Post by Munroe on Jun 28, 2006 16:05:52 GMT -5
Regarding gods and who brings who back, gods grant their clerics the Power to cast the spells to bring people back to life. (Unless a particular god doesn't allow it to his clerics.) It is the cleric's choice who they use it on, and the cleric's responsibility to use it wisely. When a cleric casts Raise/Res on a dead character, the dead character's spirit knows the alignment and patron of the person calling him/her back to life and it is the spirit's choice whether to accept or decline the call to life. (No character can be Raised/Res'd against his/her will.) The cleric may lose favour with his/her god for bringing back one of his/her god's enemies, but in most cases, the gods themselves don't intervene directly in individual spellcastings.
Merris is a VERY IDEAL cleric to bring back most anyone (if he were actually a cleric, he is a druid :-P) because Silvanus is True Neutral and as such most characters would be inclined to answer the call to return to life.
I think you're worrying way too much about the metagaming of alignment-based respawn points though. Even if they did exist without a choice of which one you went to, I think there would be minimal metagaming. And if they did exist with a choice between good and neutral respawn for good characters, all three alignments for neutral characters, and neutral and evil for evil characters, metagaming would only allow for a 50% chance of guessing correctly at the good and evil temples, and no means of guessing respawned PC alignments at the neutral temple.
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Post by DM the Usurper on Jun 28, 2006 21:34:15 GMT -5
The start is just part of the beginning story, after you start there, you don't have to start there ever again. From the welcome room you basically start where ever you little adventuring heart wants to.
Big cities are not always where it's at. Isinhold is the result of a situation. Doesn't matter if it is equiped for it or not. That is where the action is....Why would the bad guys initially try to get a foothold next to a magically and naturally well fortified, well equipped and manned metropolis? Even the U.S. had to start from the edge of Iraq before entering Bagdad.
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Post by Laurk on Jun 28, 2006 22:41:08 GMT -5
My vote is to have clerics of Ilmater doing the raising. These guys will heal anyone... rich, poor... Although, they may or may not be willing to raise evil. Perhaps we should have an evil church where evil types are raised. I bet thats doable based on alighnment in the ol' respawn script.
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Post by soulfien on Jun 28, 2006 23:14:27 GMT -5
we could have it set as per religion. A rogue of Mask would respawn at the temple of Mask. I know not all religions have temples, but it's a thought. Of course it would have to be by choice as some of the temples are hard to reach- like Malar, Kossuth, and Bane for example. Otherwise you simply respawn at the default location. Another note... having an evil place to respawn as a mandatory thing- just make sure it's accessible. A lvl 1 dying and having to fight his way back from the Thayan Enclave for example
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Post by moulinous on Jun 29, 2006 0:58:00 GMT -5
I think there should be a few temples that you respawn at and it is always random if that is possible. Sometimes it is in Redmist, sometimes in Isnhold, sometimes Suzail...heck even Skull Crag. This way, you never know where you are going to end up, it just depends oon the last people that went through the gate. As for why you were brought back? Heck, its the Gods...they have their own way of thinking and doing things. They said this person needs to come back and poof...you are back. This would add to the penalty of dying in a way as you would wake up somewhere diffrent then your party anyhow. now as for where we start? i would think that the best option is giving us options...Suzail, Marsember, Redmist, or Isnhold. If you play a rogue type...god or evil, then city is best. If you play a backwards farmer, a ranger, or something of the sorts, Isnhold. It all depends more on the character type than the alignment.
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Post by MTGPackFoils on Jun 29, 2006 6:17:47 GMT -5
personally I still think the option to respawn where you died last would be a -great- option.
Monster kills you, no one else around so monster walks away (despawns). You come back, realize you're and idiot for being a level 9 PC going against a Hill Giant Barbarian and his pet maul "Masher" and head back to town.
You still get the xp penalty, and don't have to walk through all fugue plane areas (if they are still there after the DMs are done) to get to a town far, far, away from where you were.
The other option would be to spawn at your guild temple/temple of your god. Those who follow Evil gods (not character alignment, god chose) would spawn back at it's temple, lick it's wounds, and eventually rejoin the good people to corrupt them. Those who worship good dieties would spawn at their temples.
This would make things great for those of us who go in groups or solo.
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