Dead Villain Vault

[Deleted]

This idea is a bit like the "Ironman" group idea, but takes a different spin.

There's been a lot of talk, like there often is, about what amounts to good sportsmanship in PVP. A lot of that seems to me to stem from a fear of other people either taking too much advantage of their opponents in PVP or acting like "bad sports" if they lose. At the same time, I think a lot of the potential for fun on the server is lost if people shy away from creating or participating in PVP conflicts. So ... I've been thinking about creating a group of players who are interested in helping each other run plots for others to solve in a, "My character is meant to be defeated" sort of way.

The idea would be for players to have a way of easily finding others who are willing to help drive a particular plot and to play characters who can be killed off permanently as part of that plot. For instance, if someone wants to run a plot about bandits that raid on the roadways, they could post up a request, "I need 3-4 people who are interested in playing bandits that rob people on the roadways. Interested players, send a PM." The purpose of such plots would be to give other players the satisfaction of having a villain or group of villains that actually stayed dead once the climactic battle came, and to also show some examples, repeatedly, of players being "good sports" about their characters being defeated, even to the point of being killed off permanently. If that group did such things enough, maybe other people might also let their guard down, loosen up a bit, and allow their own characters to be a bit more vulnerable as well.

The name I am thinking of for this group would be the "Dead Villain Vault." The name comes from the idea that our goal would be to fill up our own NWN vaults with permanently dead villains. And to help players keep it in mind what the goal of the group is. People who join the group would have the advantage of having other players to draw on to help fill roles in a plot idea, so we could more easily find sufficient help to actually make it go, instead of languishing for weeks or months waiting for someone to *happen* to create a character that has an IC reason to actually cooperate with it. And the group would strive to live up to the utmost standards of sportsmanship in PVP, from always trying to create fair scenarios for others to play in, to striving to never complain about anything anyone else does IC short of outright cheating, etc. And the most important point would be, if a PC kills a DVV character in PVP because of their associated plot, then that character stays permanently dead, period.

Is this something other people are interested in doing? Not interested in having other people do. Are other people interested in being the ones to do this?

[quelunia]

I wont say I will do it with an active character I have, but I am not opposed to making a new character to help others with their ideas. Sounds like fun. Also, I dont mind killing off a character. So .. lets go.

[quelunia]

This being said, anyone that needs help to move along a character concept feel free to PM me.. anytime. I dont mind helping out.

[DM Grizwald]

I just created a character for this exact purpose last night. We shall see how it goes. He/she is going to be played a little more regularly so let's enjoy it and see what happens.

[DM Grizwald]

Sorry when I mean this purpose I mean he is obviously a villain and will be perma'ed if killed but I won't be making the situation available for OOC interaction. If you catch him/her, you win!

[The Tallest Dwarf]

I love permadeath settings and have been known to perm characters if I thought their death would be meaningful. I'll bite.

[quelunia]

Ya, I perma'ed Shesh then got so many PM's about him I brought him back it was no fun I dont play him and to his assassin ... Consider him dead for good.

[Lady Frost]

To be a bit of a devil's advocate. What happens when the villain wins? Does the villain -have- to lose? Is the plot predetermined to be a guaranteed win against these PC's? If it is, that seems to take a lot out of the encounter.

[Deleted]

Jan 11, 2014 20:31:45 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

To be a bit of a devil's advocate. What happens when the villain wins? Does the villain -have- to lose? Is the plot predetermined to be a guaranteed win against these PC's? If it is, that seems to take a lot out of the encounter.

No. The villain is not determined to lose on an encounter by encounter basis. The idea is to create a villain who drives a plot, where the intent is to create plots for someone else to solve, and not with the intent of building up a permanent character that you play forever, no matter what happens to them, even if they get executed by the crown. You push limits, take chances, see what you can get away with, until finally someone gets you, as opposed to playing it safe and trying to preserve your own character forever. And when someone finally gets you, that's it. You could look at it almost like playing a single character with the mentality a DM might have in playing a DM plot, only you don't have all the DM powers. But you're still doing it to give other people something to fight/play against, not to build up your own character forever.

Does that help?

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Personally I would be focused on making a character whose primary intent was to foment and create roleplay for others. By this I mean that where most PCs are created to drive their own story, this character exists as a sort of "aware" NPC. They would be developed to the best of my rping ability but their goals and motivations would differ from the normal narrative of FRC. I agree though, that these should not be "straw men" villains that Good-aligned PCs can destroy once they've figured out that they are Teh Ebilz(tm) otherwise it's a hollow victory and a meaningless story. This wouldn't be a painfully thin stereotype of a villain either though, it might not be obvious that this character is evil at all. The main thing is that there would be an finite end to whatever plots were running with this character involved.

I remember one of the first villains FRC saw when it returned in May '12 was the pyromancing wizard Marek who burned down the Wild Wolf Inn and had a majority of the server's Good-aligned (as well as opportunistic Neutrals and Evils of course) searching for him.It wasn't just random acts of violence on npcs and such that no one is around to witness and cannot prevent but as far as I remember the player gave opportunities for people to catch him and eventually he disappeared rather than continuing to remain in a place where he was wanted by virtually every single lawful authority and quite a few unlawful ones. Sure, he didn't end up being executed and perma-killed but the disappearance still struck me as realistic. It was one of the first player-driven plots to emerge from the server's rebirth and it forged some bonds that still exist among characters to this day.

[Deleted]

^^ Yeah, that's the idea.

[Rane]

Lol the funny thing is that I already do and have done this.

[Lady Frost]

Jan 11, 2014 21:07:46 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

Jan 11, 2014 20:31:45 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

To be a bit of a devil's advocate. What happens when the villain wins? Does the villain -have- to lose? Is the plot predetermined to be a guaranteed win against these PC's? If it is, that seems to take a lot out of the encounter.

No. The villain is not determined to lose on an encounter by encounter basis. The idea is to create a villain who drives a plot, where the intent is to create plots for someone else to solve, and not with the intent of building up a permanent character that you play forever, no matter what happens to them, even if they get executed by the crown. You push limits, take chances, see what you can get away with, until finally someone gets you, as opposed to playing it safe and trying to preserve your own character forever. And when someone finally gets you, that's it. You could look at it almost like playing a single character with the mentality a DM might have in playing a DM plot, only you don't have all the DM powers. But you're still doing it to give other people something to fight/play against, not to build up your own character forever.

Does that help?

I understand. I understood it before as a much smaller scope like on an event to event basis.

My next question then becomes, Are we now going to have to deal with a bunch of Stupid Evil that players expect to lose and don't RP realistically? 10 people trying to burn down GG and having no fear of anything? (That wasn't a poke at people that have burnt down GG to say anything negative. Just an example. I'm annoyed I have to say this.)

[Deleted]

Jan 12, 2014 2:03:54 GMT -5 Lady Frost said:

Jan 11, 2014 21:07:46 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

No. The villain is not determined to lose on an encounter by encounter basis. The idea is to create a villain who drives a plot, where the intent is to create plots for someone else to solve, and not with the intent of building up a permanent character that you play forever, no matter what happens to them, even if they get executed by the crown. You push limits, take chances, see what you can get away with, until finally someone gets you, as opposed to playing it safe and trying to preserve your own character forever. And when someone finally gets you, that's it. You could look at it almost like playing a single character with the mentality a DM might have in playing a DM plot, only you don't have all the DM powers. But you're still doing it to give other people something to fight/play against, not to build up your own character forever.

Does that help?

I understand. I understood it before as a much smaller scope like on an event to event basis.

My next question then becomes, Are we now going to have to deal with a bunch of Stupid Evil that players expect to lose and don't RP realistically? 10 people trying to burn down GG and having no fear of anything? (That wasn't a poke at people that have burnt down GG to say anything negative. Just an example. I'm annoyed I have to say this.)

I'm going to answer that question a little bit facetiously. If they get caught, get killed, and go away, then I see that as a self-solving problem.

And to Rane, I know people already do this. That's a good thing. I'm encouraging other people to do it more.

[The Tallest Dwarf]

Just going to bump this in case there's any more interest:)

[quelunia]

I would be willing as I said to do this.. but .. I suppose I am busy with a remake ... I will in time be doing this.

[Fenix]

As i spoke of, I would be interested in helping out where I can, and have somewhat of a plot running, though its not exactly within the criteria of the group. But I would help out where I can with miniature plots, seeing as I feel player driven plots offer a lot to the server. Hell, I do them on Fenix all the time.

My only issue is that Fenix takes A LOT of time from me, so I wont always be available. and I just started up an alt that has a bit of a plot going as well, but I could help in between all of it.

[ID10Tango]

Jan 12, 2014 0:20:08 GMT -5 Rane said:

Lol the funny thing is that I already do and have done this.

Yea but the difference is that we were too strong. Now we're mostly gone and the server is asking for evil volunteers...

[Kiyohime 🐍]

Jan 22, 2014 9:05:24 GMT -5 ID10Tango said:

Jan 12, 2014 0:20:08 GMT -5 Rane said:

Lol the funny thing is that I already do and have done this.

Yea but the difference is that we were too strong. Now we're mostly gone and the server is asking for evil volunteers...

Evil /disposable/ volunteers.

[Grozer]

Jan 22, 2014 9:05:24 GMT -5 ID10Tango said:

Jan 12, 2014 0:20:08 GMT -5 Rane said:

Lol the funny thing is that I already do and have done this.

Yea but the difference is that we were too strong. Now we're mostly gone and the server is asking for evil volunteers...

Not just evil volunteers but evil volunteers that are willing to lose and be killed off. Forgive my sarcasm.

[Deleted]

For those who do have interest, there has been discussion behind the scenes. If you have an interest in scattering the server with your own characters' corpses for the sake of entertaining others, send me a PM, and we'll see about getting this ball rolling.

[Rane]

This is a slap in the face to others. Because the idea basically says that you suck to much to deal with other evil people who actually have alot of backstory and development, so you want people to make FAKE characterd in order to steer your character towards fake stardom. You get to stage fights to make your record look good. And as you have stated many times you don't like current evil players on the server.

I was told long ago that i should start trying to play good to redeem my "reputation?" with some players. But shuarvyn you really make it hard to do that. I hereby vote that evil people completely ignore you as you ignore some of us.

If you don't get what is going then read the iron man posts. Go way back and read the many posts directed at me when i played kross all the time and attacked gg. Shuarvyn ws the first to attack me on "the way I roleplay."

Ban me from the forums if you want but i have had enough. Shuarvyn you are clearly socially challenged and i wish you would leave the server. Thanks and this is the only post you deserve from me.

[Deleted]

Jan 22, 2014 16:07:07 GMT -5 Rane said:

This is a slap in the face to others. Because the idea basically says that you suck to much to deal with other evil people who actually have alot of backstory and development, so you want people to make FAKE characterd in order to steer your character towards fake stardom. You get to stage fights to make your record look good. And as you have stated many times you don't like current evil players on the server.

I was told long ago that i should start trying to play good to redeem my "reputation?" with some players. But shuarvyn you really make it hard to do that. I hereby vote that evil people completely ignore you as you ignore some of us.

If you don't get what is going then read the iron man posts. Go way back and read the many posts directed at me when i played kross all the time and attacked gg. Shuarvyn ws the first to attack me on "the way I roleplay."

Ban me from the forums if you want but i have had enough. Shuarvyn you are clearly socially challenged and i wish you would leave the server. Thanks and this is the only post you deserve from me.

Rane, I'm not pumping my own character. I'm going to be playing "disposable villains." I'm planning on taking the falls.

[Deleted]

And on that note, can someone lock this thread? Interested parties send PM's.

[gainreduction]

Sharauvyn, I wasn't really interested in this too much to be honest, anyway. Why was it called for?

Is the roleplay of "good aligned" characters THAT good?

Is the roleplay of "baddies", so bad?

Last time I played an evil character I was almost metagamed off the server... that's my 2 cents.

Why request people retire/kill off characters when... they might have invested a lot of time into their characters as well?

[The Tallest Dwarf]

OI!
Everyone posting:I have rp'd with all of you, I have enjoyed rp'ing with all of you, I daresay that is probably true for most people on the server. Each of you brings something unique to FRC.Can folks therefore please consider if continuing this is truly good for the community or just going to result in more bad feelings on all sides?

[Fenix]

Jan 22, 2014 17:28:10 GMT -5 The Tallest Dwarf said:

OI!
Everyone posting:I have rp'd with all of you, I have enjoyed rp'ing with all of you, I daresay that is probably true for most people on the server. Each of you brings something unique to FRC.Can folks therefore please consider if continuing this is truly good for the community or just going to result in more bad feelings on all sides?

[Sadistic Hobo]

Keep in mind PA boxes are always open, gang. Feel free to toss a pm if you think it could be useful.

[Deleted]

Jan 22, 2014 17:03:00 GMT -5 gainreduction said:

Sharauvyn, I wasn't really interested in this too much to be honest, anyway. Why was it called for?

Is the roleplay of "good aligned" characters THAT good?

Is the roleplay of "baddies", so bad?

Last time I played an evil character I was almost metagamed off the server... that's my 2 cents.

Why request people retire/kill off characters when... they might have invested a lot of time into their characters as well?

The purpose of the DVV is as follows.

I have often thought of a plot idea that I'd like to run that would require the help of a few other players in order to do adequately, centering around a villain I had in mind. I asked around a few times to players I knew if they were interested in playing the part of other villains in that plot. They generally answered that they wanted to do other plots of their own, ones which generally didn't go anywhere for lack of support from other players, just like mine died on the runway. So ... having had this experience more than once, I thought to myself it might be good to create some sort of networking resource, or at least attempt to do so, so that people who want to run plot X and need 3-5 people to help support it by playing supporting cast can find people who are willing to do so. That's really all there is to it.

There is no implicit comment in how good the role play of good characters is, or that the role play of evil characters is bad. This is intended as a networking resource so that people who want help doing a plot can more easily find it. That's it. I've got four or five other players waiting in the wings ready to help each other out with plots already.

There is more than one reason for asking people to be willing to let their characters go if killed in PVP. One is for the sake of the other player who killed them, that they can have the satisfaction of having actually made a difference in the server environment around them, that villain X is no longer around, because this character killed them. People ask up and down to be able to affect the setting. Here is an attempt at helping that to happen. It's also asked that people be willing to let their DVV character go in order to avoid getting attached to it, so that the player can hopefully retain a mindset about that character that it exists only to entertain others, and for no other purpose, to the point of letting it go when the storyline says that should happen. To even build towards that moment on purpose so that others can have that moment of having overcome and eliminated this villain, all for the sake of other players. If a player will not be willing to let go of a character they have spent a lot of time on, then that player would do well not to invest too much of themselves in the character, beyond what is necessary to fill their role in the plot the character is part of.

As pertains to existing evil PC's, if anything, it's intended to take the pressure off of them as players to be willing to part with their characters so that the players of their enemies can have the satisfaction of killing off a bad guy. It's also potentially a role playing resource as a source of underlings, hirelings, or other "extras" that an established, long term villain PC might want to utilize to perform some nefarious deed, if they are more interested in entertaining the player of the target than they are in successfully accomplishing the deed. For instance, if a player wanted, they could ask for some DVV mooks to try to assassinate a good aligned character who's been poking into their business, if their OOC goal is to give the other player a cool encounter. If they really want the character to die, they're always free to just go do that themselves if they want. But, if they have a hard time finding people who are willing to take a fall playing the part of assassins that the "good guy" survives or even turns the tables on, enter the DVV. We take that role. And the other player doesn't have to know the difference. When people start toggling them hostile and red floaty names appear on the screen, they don't know if they face DVV characters (which will present real danger, they have to play to win) or PC's who are actually meant even OOC'ly to kill them. So that's what's in it for the players of evil characters, if they choose, out of their own desire to play this way for a given scene.

So ... this is meant as an available resource for those who choose to use it. It's not some kind of evil player characters' union that's going to break people's knee caps if they don't pay their dues, join up, and play the game our way.

[gainreduction]

Jan 22, 2014 17:28:10 GMT -5 The Tallest Dwarf said:

OI!
Everyone posting:I have rp'd with all of you, I have enjoyed rp'ing with all of you, I daresay that is probably true for most people on the server. Each of you brings something unique to FRC.Can folks therefore please consider if continuing this is truly good for the community or just going to result in more bad feelings on all sides?

Yes, for the most part I agree.

This is why I questioned the motives behind this very idea?

Whilst having an opinion is great, I think I'll be taking a break from the forums for a while.

Second edit: I don't think I said anything out of line, but I will apologise if anything I said was taken as 'hostility' or the wrong way. Text can be a fickle thing, so here's a smiley face.