Genericism

[Fenix]

I will start this out now by saying I am not trying to take a hit at ANYBODY on the server, or say that there is a certain way you should play your character or anything like that. This is just a short rant that may turn into something more, but it at least opens the discussion that I know a lot of people have on their minds too.

Throughout my time on FRC, I have met a lot of interesting characters. I have made some great friends here, and RPed with some very exotic personalities. But as much enjoyment as I have had throughout this time, I do notice a trend that kind of eats away at me. It is something that has possibly even been discussed lightly in other threads, and its roots exist both IC and OOC. This is the genericism of some characters.

Take my own character, Fenix. I am not trying to toot my own horn, but I have really come to enjoy and love him as a character. He is fairly unique compared to most druids. He has a tolerance that is frowned upon, a wildness that cannot be matched, and an aching appreciation for mischief. But he no less tries to display the values a druid should, which are those of balance and natural protection and love for its creatures. He may not be as strict into the values as EVERY SINGLE DRUID is, but he follows the circle in his own way, the way he best knows how.

Then I look at some of the other characters that wander around. I see at least a dozen necromancers, all being blatantly evil in the middle of the towns, like it was just okay to do so and essentially screaming HEY IM EVIL GIVE ME ATTENTION. Or I will see Paladins, a dime a dozen that do nothing about them. Paladins that get hellbent on one thing and stick closely to their values as a good paladin should. Now why does this bother me so much? People are just playing their roles right? Whats wrong with that? Nothing really.

But at the same time, thats just it. All most people seem to do is just play that role, not their character. Somebody today was complimenting me on how I play Fenix, and asked me how I do it. My best answer for him was that I used to write a lot, and that helped me out. But what aided me above all that is that I dont just play him as a game or a role, I play him as if I am standing there in great gaunt, shifted into a bird and making jokes at Joric about Bubba Lou being his new half orc boyfriend. I play him as if I really were him, sometimes even showing how imperfect a real person can be by not completely following the "laws of druids".

So where am I going with this exactly? Its not to say "hey everybody just stop doing what youre doing, change your ways and play the way I want you to." If I did that, then it would be equally boring. I don't want to tell people who doubtless have more experience in RP, and much more time with this community than me how to play their characters. But I do want to tell everybody that a bit of variety doesnt hurt now and then. Instead of being the typical lawful good lawful stupid paladin, who cannot lie and always upholds truth, justice, and the Cormyran way, why not be that paladin that gets drunk on the weekends and has fallen from grace, because for once he stood up for what HE believed in, rather than just what his god said is right. Maybe the law isnt always the right way, and he took that hit and knew the consequence, but did it anyways!

Instead of being the all powerful blatantly evil necromancer that flaunts his abilities everywhere because nobody will kill him, be somebody that hides their evil in the shadows. Play with the people, make your evil have a background. Dont just be evil because it just happens, have a reason. Nobody is just BORN evil, they have experiences that drive them to be that way. Show that! Then instead of just flaunting it everywhere, lead up to it and do it a bit more in the background. Befriend them then cut their throat.

And most dearly, the metagaming that clearly goes on sometimes. A lot of people are aware of it. You know you do it, we know you do it, I know even I have done it at times too. We are all guilty. But sometimes, is it really so bad to take that hit? If you are standing in a town and somebody is questioning just how much of a man you are, you are getting CLEARLY angered with them, and you are both ready for a fight, dont just stand there doing nothing or wander away. Realistically, you probably would not do that. You would deck that person right in the face. So roleplay that IC. Draw your blade and duke it out like people used to. If it bothers you that much that you may lose experience or gold, just remember that 9/10 times there is a healer who will likely restore your life shortly afterward.


The ending metagaming thing aside, which is just something that conveniently tied into this kind of topic, my whole point is, even though this is a role playing server, don't just play your role. Give your character uniqueness, and play that backstory they were created by. Let it really influence who they are, then let their experiences influence who they have become. Play your character. Play that person. When you log on to the server each day, dont log in as Nick Skwarek playing Fenix Vale. Log in as Fenix Vale, The Wild Druid, the worshipper of silvanus. Be who they are.

[senrilaredfang]

Just sort of trying to get at what you're saying here because a lot of it sounds like you'd just like people to uhh.. well, role play, which is kind of expected since it's a role playing server, right?

You don't like too much genericism of some characters.

You want people to role play their characters, not just their roles.

You want evil characters to have a background, a reason for being evil and not flaunt their evilness in an obvious manner.

You want characters to have weaknesses as well as strengths.

Most of this to me is just common sense, you're basically just asking people to.. uh, role play. I would perhaps suggest you not take characters at face value how ever and wait until you actually get to know them before assuming they are generic. At face value some characters might very well appear to be what you'd expect from a certain role but you can't see into their minds/past without.. well.. role playing with them. You could look at my character and say "Oh, she's just obsessed with hunting stuff" but if you get to know her you'll find she is actually a complex person with ideas, fears, ambitions, ect. The post is very sort of apologetic and you say you don't want to judge people and what not but it makes it hard to respond clearly when the message isn't clear.  

"Take my own character, Fenix. I am not trying to toot my own horn, but I have really come to enjoy and love him as a character. He is fairly unique compared to most druids. He has a tolerance that is frowned upon, a wildness that cannot be matched, and an aching appreciation for mischief. But he no less tries to display the values a druid should, which are those of balance and natural protection and love for its creatures. He may not be as strict into the values as EVERY SINGLE DRUID is, but he follows the circle in his own way, the way he best knows how."

So from this I think you made a character and you really think he's awesome and unique and interesting and that's great, I think the same about my character. But you know your character intimately, I know mine intimately. Everyone knows their character intimately and you must be careful about judging other characters when you're not in their heads. You've said "I am not trying to toot my own horn" Well, maybe you subconsciously are, maybe subconsciously you think you're a better role player than most others on the server? Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe.. Maybe I just need to take the time to get to know you better and maybe I'll find that you're a lot deeper than I first assumed. See what I did there?

[senrilaredfang]

Just something else to add because I think it may be relevant... 

I have an example that actually involved your character. My character was sitting on the chair and saw yours in dog form. My character assumed you were a dog and she felt sadness because she was thinking about how a wolf (in her eyes a strong hunter) had been selectively bred by civilized people to become a domestic dog (A weak and broken reflection of a wolf). She pitted the dog but was also disgusted by it in a way, she considered slitting your throat as she saw you as a weak, twisted form of a wolf but she didn't because it would have gotten her in trouble with the laws ect. She didn't feel strongly enough about it to get herself into trouble. Keep in mind that all this happened in my head, my character was thinking all this but since I don't type out every thought in my characters head no one would have known. You just saw my character sitting and looking at the dog.. She had no reason to say anything, these were her own thoughts and there was no in character opportunity or reason to voice them, but they were there.

[mandene]

Fenix, I'm verry happy for you to have figured and seen the true joys of roleplay. To me, my characters become living beings and end up "roleplaing themselves" through me instead of my trying to portray something. I end up loving them all.

I understand what you are trying to say and do, but you are doing a dangerous thing here. Even if not ment as such, your post comes about as judgemental, and patronizing.

You do not know what goes on in the head of the paladin. A man, who is a paladin (note I mean a PC, not a player) is required to play a role - the role of a paladin. So you have a player who plays a role who plays a role. You do not know how much effort it takes the man to act like the generic paladin that you see. You don't know his personal struggle and how much effort it takes him to hide his shortcommings and try to portray the role-model a paladin is supposed to be. To assume that he's just a generic, cookie-cutter paladin, is to diminish all the effort the player puts into his character. And if I was playing a paladin, I would become very frustrated with this, since there is another thread in here where people accuse players who play paladin characters of not playing them enough like paladins. I'm going to refrain from repeating what I just said with the "evil necromancers".

You probably assume a generic tree-hugging happy-go-lucky elf girl as well when you see my character Ariean. But, I haven't played a generic character since the day I steped into a roleplay server and was taught how to roleplay. None of my characters are WYSIWIG. There is always at least one thing in them that is the total opposit to what you see. They have their own struggles, their own morals, and thier own shortcomings from those morals. Their own fears. Even "fetishes". Even dark-sides. The same goes for Ariean. And you won't see those things unless you know her better. So far even her current best friends don't know it all. And you won't be able to read it out through her journal posts, since the journal is written through her own perspective. So it's a very subjective journal, and as people usually are - she doesn't know herself as well as I know her, and there are some things she'd never admit even to herself, and thus they will never be put down on paper.

But, the tiny amount of roleplay you did with me most probably lends you to thinking that all you see is a tree-hugging happy-go-lucky elf girl. You need more than just few moments here and there around Greatgaunt to see the depths and beauty of what is being portrayed. It is not fair to pass judgemnt based on what you think you see.

I also need to add that there are different types of roleplay, and all of them are valid. What you are describing here Fenix, and the type of play that I do is called "Method Play". Meaning you portray a character and play him in a certain way no matter what is going on around. Always doing the "how will my character react to this". But that's not the only way of valid roleplay. One other very popular is the "Story Roleplay", which means that a player will do things appropriate for the progress of the story. A Method Player might do exactly the opposit because "that's what my character would do". It's not worse thing to do, it's just different. There are other forms of roleplay, but I think mensioning 2 is good enough for my point to come across -> Just because you and I play in a certain way, it doesn't mean others have to, and that what they do is less valid or good.

[Razgriz]

Killing necromancers just because they are necromancers is not good enough or lawful for a paldin. Any paladin caught killing one in cold blood should fall from grace right there. If the paladin sees them summoning undead, then they should first ask the necromancer to stop. If the necromancer does not, then the paladin should proceed to turn or destroy the summoned/created undead. With fiends its a bit different, but the paladin must be 100% sure that the creature summoned was an evil outsider.

There are several ways to stop them from doing evil, but not need to mention them here. PvP to death every necromancer out there sounds more what like a CG, CN or CE would be doing, not the lawful alignments.


Edit: Remember that necromancers are not illegal in Cormyr, I would say a paladin can only kill them if they see them doing something evil AND unlawful. It cannot be only one of the two be it evil or chaotic, both things have to come into play for the paladin to smite.

[Fenix]

Aug 7, 2013 4:31:18 GMT -5 senrilaredfang said:

Just sort of trying to get at what you're saying here because a lot of it sounds like you'd just like people to uhh.. well, role play, which is kind of expected since it's a role playing server, right?

You don't like too much genericism of some characters.

You want people to role play their characters, not just their roles.

You want evil characters to have a background, a reason for being evil and not flaunt their evilness in an obvious manner.

You want characters to have weaknesses as well as strengths.

Most of this to me is just common sense, you're basically just asking people to.. uh, role play. I would perhaps suggest you not take characters at face value how ever and wait until you actually get to know them before assuming they are generic. At face value some characters might very well appear to be what you'd expect from a certain role but you can't see into their minds/past without.. well.. role playing with them. You could look at my character and say "Oh, she's just obsessed with hunting stuff" but if you get to know her you'll find she is actually a complex person with ideas, fears, ambitions, ect. The post is very sort of apologetic and you say you don't want to judge people and what not but it makes it hard to respond clearly when the message isn't clear.  

"Take my own character, Fenix. I am not trying to toot my own horn, but I have really come to enjoy and love him as a character. He is fairly unique compared to most druids. He has a tolerance that is frowned upon, a wildness that cannot be matched, and an aching appreciation for mischief. But he no less tries to display the values a druid should, which are those of balance and natural protection and love for its creatures. He may not be as strict into the values as EVERY SINGLE DRUID is, but he follows the circle in his own way, the way he best knows how."

So from this I think you made a character and you really think he's awesome and unique and interesting and that's great, I think the same about my character. But you know your character intimately, I know mine intimately. Everyone knows their character intimately and you must be careful about judging other characters when you're not in their heads. You've said "I am not trying to toot my own horn" Well, maybe you subconsciously are, maybe subconsciously you think you're a better role player than most others on the server? Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe.. Maybe I just need to take the time to get to know you better and maybe I'll find that you're a lot deeper than I first assumed. See what I did there?

I guess in that perception yes, it does sound like I would like people to share the same love for their character as I do in some cases, or get to know others better As much as Senrila considered slitting my throat, theres plenty of times I get pretty bad RP because people don't want to know fenix. they just see that guy that was a snake in town one time so that makes him worse than anybody there.

Aug 7, 2013 6:24:10 GMT -5 mandene said:

Fenix, I'm verry happy for you to have figured and seen the true joys of roleplay. To me, my characters become living beings and end up "roleplaing themselves" through me instead of my trying to portray something. I end up loving them all.

I understand what you are trying to say and do, but you are doing a dangerous thing here. Even if not ment as such, your post comes about as judgemental, and patronizing.

You do not know what goes on in the head of the paladin. A man, who is a paladin (note I mean a PC, not a player) is required to play a role - the role of a paladin. So you have a player who plays a role who plays a role. You do not know how much effort it takes the man to act like the generic paladin that you see. You don't know his personal struggle and how much effort it takes him to hide his shortcommings and try to portray the role-model a paladin is supposed to be. To assume that he's just a generic, cookie-cutter paladin, is to diminish all the effort the player puts into his character. And if I was playing a paladin, I would become very frustrated with this, since there is another thread in here where people accuse players who play paladin characters of not playing them enough like paladins. I'm going to refrain from repeating what I just said with the "evil necromancers".

You probably assume a generic tree-hugging happy-go-lucky elf girl as well when you see my character Ariean. But, I haven't played a generic character since the day I steped into a roleplay server and was taught how to roleplay. None of my characters are WYSIWIG. There is always at least one thing in them that is the total opposit to what you see. They have their own struggles, their own morals, and thier own shortcomings from those morals. Their own fears. Even "fetishes". Even dark-sides. The same goes for Ariean. And you won't see those things unless you know her better. So far even her current best friends don't know it all. And you won't be able to read it out through her journal posts, since the journal is written through her own perspective. So it's a very subjective journal, and as people usually are - she doesn't know herself as well as I know her, and there are some things she'd never admit even to herself, and thus they will never be put down on paper.

But, the tiny amount of roleplay you did with me most probably lends you to thinking that all you see is a tree-hugging happy-go-lucky elf girl. You need more than just few moments here and there around Greatgaunt to see the depths and beauty of what is being portrayed. It is not fair to pass judgemnt based on what you think you see.

I also need to add that there are different types of roleplay, and all of them are valid. What you are describing here Fenix, and the type of play that I do is called "Method Play". Meaning you portray a character and play him in a certain way no matter what is going on around. Always doing the "how will my character react to this". But that's not the only way of valid roleplay. One other very popular is the "Story Roleplay", which means that a player will do things appropriate for the progress of the story. A Method Player might do exactly the opposit because "that's what my character would do". It's not worse thing to do, it's just different. There are other forms of roleplay, but I think mensioning 2 is good enough for my point to come across -> Just because you and I play in a certain way, it doesn't mean others have to, and that what they do is less valid or good.

At that point, I am not trying to bash the work that goes into being a paladin. Some of the ones I have RPed with are actually pretty interesting people. But there are others where the more I try and play with them and create something interesting, in the long run it just comes down to a lawful stupid kind of idealism where I have actually felt like I was talking to an NPC.
I do appreciate the way most of the Paladins are played, but what I was pointing toward is the story side where you always see the just paladin everywhere, character development side. Thats why I brought up the fallen paladin example, its an uncommon theme because nobody would ever let themselves fall OOCly because that would make their character near unplayable.

As far as getting to know the characters, that part I do try to do, because personally it would help my RP. Most people RP just trying to fix corvus for example, but fenix has gotten to know him and knows a bit about his struggle. If I am reacting to some people without the knowledge, I do apologize, though we are all guilty of it.

The reason I bring this kind of thing up is because the same person that gave me that compliment last night was somebody who was really about to just leave the server. When asked why, they told me its because they just cannot RP becuase of the reactions their character gets all the time. Nobody will talk to them or wants anything to do with them, so it restricts what they are able to do. What I target is the generic reaction fault alongside the generic character, which is something that is difficult because it is human nature. We all fall into the same bandwagon sometimes, because its the easy way to do something. But once in a while a little spice could be thrown in and people could play the devil's advocate that may go against the "role" of their character, because its in their characters personality. What I usually see is somebody who says they love all creatures, until one thing that everybody else hates shows up. Then they hate that to death. Ive had Fenix being argued with in town with everyone, people ready to slit his throat, but 10 minutes later one of the sword holders is trying to be buddy buddy with him, because nobody else is around.


Im sorry if my point was getting taken differently than I meant it too. I really am not trying to be judgemental or patronizing to anybody. This post isnt trying to say everybody is doing this wrong, because I am well aware that my way of RP isnt the one true only way, just the way that works best for me. And my thoughts here may seem a bit jumbled because I tend to think of ideas in a rapid succession, so I try to write them down fast and explain everything together. What I started as a behavioral thing I guess is more of a metagame or OOC thing really is what I argue against, though the behavioral aspect still is what I would like to discuss. As far as the other two, its just what I said in that example. A lot of great RP gets restricted, because OOCly nobody wants to attack that player for insulting everything they stand for. THey dont want to be jailed or killed because they would lose experience or not be able to RP for X amount of days.

I do not expect change out of this really. Like I said, this was a rant to get my thoughts down, and maybe I would get to see some nice discussion on it too, to see if others share my thoughts here and there. Maybe somebody would read it and see that "Hey I guess I could do XY or Z with my character thinking on that, that would be something new". It may have come out a bit more angry and insulting than I meant it to though.

[senrilaredfang]

"I guess in that perception yes, it does sound like I would like people to share the same love for their character as I do in some cases, or get to know others better As much as Senrila considered slitting my throat, theres plenty of times I get pretty bad RP because people don't want to know fenix. they just see that guy that was a snake in town one time so that makes him worse than anybody there."

To just make sure you didn't miss understand, my character considered slitting the throat of a dog, she didn't know you were a druid. Point is that my character was thinking about things, developing her character even though to onlookers it looked like she was just sitting in a chair looking at a dog. Again, point is, don't jump to conclusions that characters are generic or not complicated or not much thought has been put into them because there's usually a lot going on you don't see. That's part of the fun, finding out!

[Fenix]

Aug 7, 2013 13:00:42 GMT -5 senrilaredfang said:

"I guess in that perception yes, it does sound like I would like people to share the same love for their character as I do in some cases, or get to know others better As much as Senrila considered slitting my throat, theres plenty of times I get pretty bad RP because people don't want to know fenix. they just see that guy that was a snake in town one time so that makes him worse than anybody there."

To just make sure you didn't miss understand, my character considered slitting the throat of a dog, she didn't know you were a druid. Point is that my character was thinking about things, developing her character even though to onlookers it looked like she was just sitting in a chair looking at a dog. Again, point is, don't jump to conclusions that characters are generic or not complicated or not much thought has been put into them because there's usually a lot going on you don't see. That's part of the fun, finding out!

No I understood that completely. I just kind of jump through too much. But what if Senrila did really try to do so? Wouldn't it be interesting to see that RP unfold? Thats the kind of thing I would love to see sometimes. Don't JUST think about it. Go and do it.

[senrilaredfang]

Hmmm, not sure I want to be spilling too much of my characters thoughts into a public domain but here goes.. That would not be true to my character, she has 14 wis / 12 int, she's not daft, she's a calm, calculated and cunning huntress. She is also a fish out of water in the settlement, doesn't understand how a lot of people act and certainly doesn't want to be caged. (jailed). So no, slitting the dogs throat would be out of character, if she runs into a domestic dog in the wilds.. well she'd certainly give it a go then.

[Fenix]

Aug 7, 2013 13:13:34 GMT -5 senrilaredfang said:

Hmmm, not sure I want to be spilling too much of my characters thoughts into a public domain but here goes.. That would not be true to my character, she has 14 wis / 12 int, she's not daft, she's a calm, calculated and cunning huntress. She is also a fish out of water in the settlement, doesn't understand how a lot of people act and certainly doesn't want to be caged. (jailed). So no, slitting the dogs throat would be out of character, if she runs into a domestic dog in the wilds.. well she'd certainly give it a go then.

Thats something about Senrila that I like. You play her stats.

[Fleur de la chevalerie]

Aug 7, 2013 2:32:34 GMT -5 Fenix said:

Then I look at some of the other characters that wander around. I see at least a dozen necromancers, all being blatantly evil in the middle of the towns, like it was just okay to do so and essentially screaming HEY IM EVIL GIVE ME ATTENTION. Or I will see Paladins, a dime a dozen that do nothing about them. Paladins that get hellbent on one thing and stick closely to their values as a good paladin should. Now why does this bother me so much? People are just playing their roles right? Whats wrong with that? Nothing really.

Reading things like this, and the general tenor of the server, makes me not even want to login on my paladin. When you constantly feel like people are ignoring or brushing off your roleplay because they're influenced by prejudice informed from past experiences with certain classes/races/alignments it becomes an uphill battle trying to demonstrate how different or how unique you are versus how true you are to your origins. There's a lot more to most characters than what one sees in the square of Greatgaunt.

[Sadistic Hobo]

Aug 7, 2013 15:53:42 GMT -5 Fleur de la chevalerie said:

Aug 7, 2013 2:32:34 GMT -5 Fenix said:

Then I look at some of the other characters that wander around. I see at least a dozen necromancers, all being blatantly evil in the middle of the towns, like it was just okay to do so and essentially screaming HEY IM EVIL GIVE ME ATTENTION. Or I will see Paladins, a dime a dozen that do nothing about them. Paladins that get hellbent on one thing and stick closely to their values as a good paladin should. Now why does this bother me so much? People are just playing their roles right? Whats wrong with that? Nothing really.

Reading things like this, and the general tenor of the server, makes me not even want to login on my paladin. When you constantly feel like people are ignoring or brushing off your roleplay because they're influenced by prejudice informed from past experiences with certain classes/races/alignments it becomes an uphill battle trying to demonstrate how different or how unique you are versus how true you are to your origins. There's a lot more to most characters than what one sees in the square of Greatgaunt.

That sounds like over-sensitivity to me. You can't make something an out-of-character matter by saying a character reacting with apathy or skepticism is automatically a player ignoring your roleplay. It is roleplay. You can't really argue how complex most characters are as a defense while also minimizing the reasoning and validity of those that don't immediately react positively to yours. It's a contradiction, and symptomatic of people making too many issues out-of-character.

As for being judged based on characters (Or even general stereotypes that aren't actually present as a PC) that share your background; that's completely natural. That's the most standard-issue criticism my PC gets in-character, and it's up to roleplay to deal with it. Frankly, it's a pretty simple thing for her to brush off without any out-of-character logic needed.

[Lady Frost]

Aug 7, 2013 15:53:42 GMT -5 Fleur de la chevalerie said:

Aug 7, 2013 2:32:34 GMT -5 Fenix said:

Then I look at some of the other characters that wander around. I see at least a dozen necromancers, all being blatantly evil in the middle of the towns, like it was just okay to do so and essentially screaming HEY IM EVIL GIVE ME ATTENTION. Or I will see Paladins, a dime a dozen that do nothing about them. Paladins that get hellbent on one thing and stick closely to their values as a good paladin should. Now why does this bother me so much? People are just playing their roles right? Whats wrong with that? Nothing really.

Reading things like this, and the general tenor of the server, makes me not even want to login on my paladin. When you constantly feel like people are ignoring or brushing off your roleplay because they're influenced by prejudice informed from past experiences with certain classes/races/alignments it becomes an uphill battle trying to demonstrate how different or how unique you are versus how true you are to your origins. There's a lot more to most characters than what one sees in the square of Greatgaunt.

You're telling me! But that's part of the game. As long as it's IC, prejudice isn't a bad thing. Prejudging things based on previous experiences / stories is how the world works, right?

[Razgriz]

I think we should remember why certain characters are looked that way.

I would understand why people prejudge clerics of evil gods, but prejudging a paladin for whatever reason is not the same. If one paladin commited murder, it does not mean all paladins are murderers.

If one cleric of an evil god curses your friend with a deadly spell, well that was to be expected because that is what those clerics DO. The clerics of evil gods that don't do it are very rare.

[StabbingNirvana]

There's a certain amount of genericness required in the paladin class. The guidelines for it are pretty straight forward. To be very basic, its be good and lawful. Anything out of that is a failure. They're meant to be stalwart defenders, the front line in the struggle against evil and chaos. If the paladin class is being played outside of that, it stops being a paladin and becomes something else. Different classes have different amounts of expectations. The paladin class is the one with the most I'd say.

[Fleur de la chevalerie]

Aug 7, 2013 16:38:39 GMT -5 Sadistic Hobo said:

Aug 7, 2013 15:53:42 GMT -5 Fleur de la chevalerie said:

Reading things like this, and the general tenor of the server, makes me not even want to login on my paladin. When you constantly feel like people are ignoring or brushing off your roleplay because they're influenced by prejudice informed from past experiences with certain classes/races/alignments it becomes an uphill battle trying to demonstrate how different or how unique you are versus how true you are to your origins. There's a lot more to most characters than what one sees in the square of Greatgaunt.

That sounds like over-sensitivity to me. You can't make something an out-of-character matter by saying a character reacting with apathy or skepticism is automatically a player ignoring your roleplay. It is roleplay. You can't really argue how complex most characters are as a defense while also minimizing the reasoning and validity of those that don't immediately react positively to yours. It's a contradiction, and symptomatic of people making too many issues out-of-character.

As for being judged based on characters (Or even general stereotypes that aren't actually present as a PC) that share your background; that's completely natural. That's the most standard-issue criticism my PC gets in-character, and it's up to roleplay to deal with it. Frankly, it's a pretty simple thing for her to brush off without any out-of-character logic needed.

I was responding to his opinion of paladins that they're a bunch of 1-dimensional lawful stupids and given the current context in which paladins appear to be viewed by the adventuring population, to say that he's not aiming at anyone specifically then citing particular rp styles of particular paladins strikes me as dubious, though I will give the benefit of the doubt.I've seen examples of several different breeds of paladin on FRC and there are many easily discernible differences that make them unique, while still retaining the core that their gods demand of them. I won't get into how all our paladins are "beautiful unique widdle snowflakes" but I'll say that my approach is to take every character I see with an open mind (as a player) even if my PC has deep-seated beliefs about the person in question. I also try to make sure I acknowledge PCs, even if my PC has no reason whatsoever to try to talk to them, so that if they wish to interact they have an opening.


The reason that I responded here is because his reasoning and post are Out-of-Character and because since the server returned there have been at least a few instances where I've been told of or been party to situations that demonstrated the blurring of IC and OOC.

[Fenix]

Aug 7, 2013 22:52:32 GMT -5 Razgriz said:

Aug 7, 2013 2:32:34 GMT -5 Fenix said:

If your point in was about not playing static characters that never change then Im ok with it, but if it was a rant over not liking what you see in-game...Well I hate to disapoint you but FRC will never be perfect for all the players, DMs and builders. (Its very fun though!)

That is kind of what I am at, the static unchanging concepts that you can see a lot. Ive played with some characters that are almost exact copies of another player's idea! But in general, what I see is that there is a way a role gets played, and then everybody plays it that way for the most part.

I was responding to his opinion of paladins that they're a bunch of 1-dimensional lawful stupids and given the current context in which paladins appear to be viewed by the adventuring population, to say that he's not aiming at anyone specifically then citing particular rp styles of particular paladins strikes me as dubious, though I will give the benefit of the doubt.I've seen examples of several different breeds of paladin on FRC and there are many easily discernible differences that make them unique, while still retaining the core that their gods demand of them. I won't get into how all our paladins are "beautiful unique widdle snowflakes" but I'll say that my approach is to take every character I see with an open mind (as a player) even if my PC has deep-seated beliefs about the person in question. I also try to make sure I acknowledge PCs, even if my PC has no reason whatsoever to try to talk to them, so that if they wish to interact they have an opening.

Again, I am not attacking paladins directly, that is just an example I have used and some of what I have seen. I do give every character a chance to be learned of and see what makes them special. Most of my attempts for a paladin is just them being that generic same, and while I try to get to know some of them, usually it ends up as they wont give me a word, so that image just stays the same.

[mandene]

Fenix. As I said in the beginning, you steped into something really bad here. It looks to me like you finally figured out the joy of roleplay, and just assume that many people on the server haven't figured it out yet. So you go on how people are playing generic characters, by giving expamples that aren't that specific. But, despite you defending yourself from angry comments, they did include finger pointing.

Then you added explenations how you got told what a great roleplayer you are, and even asked for advice. Good for you, but just because there are players who still want to learn how to roleplay - it doesn't mean most of us need a thread here that speaks of all those things.

You also go on saying how that player has a hard time having others roleplay with him/her. Have you considered that might be not OOC reason - think of it as real world. You like some people and like interracting with them, some people you don't like and don't interract with them. Everyone in game can't be everybody's friend. Some high levels won't give me the time of their day, some do. But that's alright, my characters are new faces, they've developed a lot of friendships during the years they've played here. One of my characters gets about bugging people when shes bored, and thus making friends. The other one just looks and is extremelly shy - guess how often she gets interracted with. Some players go out of their way to roleplay with her - should I call them metagamers or not good enough roleplayers? What some people here call metaing (not all metaing is story roleplay, so don't quote me wrongly on that) - is what is otherwise called story roleplay - playing your character a certain way so that something happens. It's not a worse or better way of roleplaying than method acting. In fact, it can be more community oriented - method acting is more selfish in in a way.For example, the character that was going to lynch yours for being a snake, then started to talk to you while alone in the town - I don't see why that is a bad thing. Maybe 1) that was that character's personality to not hold grudges, or 2) he did story-roleplay so that things got little more interesting for you two than just standing around town and glaring at each other. And you can't for God's sake complain in one sentence that people ignore your character, and then pass judgement on them for going out their way (even maybe against the character) to roleplay with you.

Here's another reason why people haven't been interracting with your friend, one that might sound mean and patronizing - since your friend needs help in roleplaying - (I base it on the fact that you were asked how "you did it"), others might have picked that up and don't know how to act.

Third reason could be that the character just stands about being quiet without any emotes, or sits in a spot that is very off way and nobody would see the emotes. How are other players to know that person isn't afk, or doesn't want to be bothered? Not everyone is like my Ari, that goes about bugging people without consideration. And if you are roleplaying a quiet characer, and want to show that you ARE roleplaying - then emote. Your friend's character can be looking around at people, nodding it's head at things (s)he likes, frowning at things (s)he dislikes. At some point people will start taking notice. And there you go.


And now Fenix, you are spending most of the posts you make defending what it is you ment saying or not saying. And I still don't know what you ment to say.

[mandene]

Here's one advice Fenix. You say you want to say so much so you write quickly to not forget everything. I have a tendency of doing this, and end up following different lines of thought, sometimes ending up making no sense whatsoever. This is why I learned to take 1 to few hours to try to make a post that makes sense, if I have a lot to say. Jot down quicly what you want to be said, then think around it. Make some kind of more formal organization of the post. I don't do that all the time, mind you, just when I have a lot to say, or something very important to say.

[Deleted]

To Fenix:

I think it's good to remember that other players may have reasons why a given character seems kind of shallow and generic to you. Most notably, if a player is trying on a character class that they don't have a lot of experience playing, then it might be difficult to manage a deep, rich personality at the same time as making sure one is faithful to the class role, and that should be expected. There's also the fact that a lot of who that character is may be expressed out of your sight, and what you see may not seem to run as deep as what actually is.

[Fenix]

Aug 8, 2013 4:56:23 GMT -5 mandene said:

Fenix. As I said in the beginning, you steped into something really bad here. It looks to me like you finally figured out the joy of roleplay, and just assume that many people on the server haven't figured it out yet. So you go on how people are playing generic characters, by giving expamples that aren't that specific. But, despite you defending yourself from angry comments, they did include finger pointing.

Then you added explenations how you got told what a great roleplayer you are, and even asked for advice. Good for you, but just because there are players who still want to learn how to roleplay - it doesn't mean most of us need a thread here that speaks of all those things.

You also go on saying how that player has a hard time having others roleplay with him/her. Have you considered that might be not OOC reason - think of it as real world. You like some people and like interracting with them, some people you don't like and don't interract with them. Everyone in game can't be everybody's friend. Some high levels won't give me the time of their day, some do. But that's alright, my characters are new faces, they've developed a lot of friendships during the years they've played here. One of my characters gets about bugging people when shes bored, and thus making friends. The other one just looks and is extremelly shy - guess how often she gets interracted with. Some players go out of their way to roleplay with her - should I call them metagamers or not good enough roleplayers? What some people here call metaing (not all metaing is story roleplay, so don't quote me wrongly on that) - is what is otherwise called story roleplay - playing your character a certain way so that something happens. It's not a worse or better way of roleplaying than method acting. In fact, it can be more community oriented - method acting is more selfish in in a way.For example, the character that was going to lynch yours for being a snake, then started to talk to you while alone in the town - I don't see why that is a bad thing. Maybe 1) that was that character's personality to not hold grudges, or 2) he did story-roleplay so that things got little more interesting for you two than just standing around town and glaring at each other. And you can't for God's sake complain in one sentence that people ignore your character, and then pass judgement on them for going out their way (even maybe against the character) to roleplay with you.

Here's another reason why people haven't been interracting with your friend, one that might sound mean and patronizing - since your friend needs help in roleplaying - (I base it on the fact that you were asked how "you did it"), others might have picked that up and don't know how to act.

Third reason could be that the character just stands about being quiet without any emotes, or sits in a spot that is very off way and nobody would see the emotes. How are other players to know that person isn't afk, or doesn't want to be bothered? Not everyone is like my Ari, that goes about bugging people without consideration. And if you are roleplaying a quiet characer, and want to show that you ARE roleplaying - then emote. Your friend's character can be looking around at people, nodding it's head at things (s)he likes, frowning at things (s)he dislikes. At some point people will start taking notice. And there you go.


And now Fenix, you are spending most of the posts you make defending what it is you ment saying or not saying. And I still don't know what you ment to say.

im just responding to both posts in one for ease.

I do have that tendancy to reapond all too quickly at once. Its a combination of add and sever lack of sleep.

Ill do my best to organize everything a bit more clearly.

1) I did not say I was asked for advice on how to play. It may have seemed so, but no I was just complimented.

2) the friend isnt a poor roleplayer from my experience. It is a player whos been here much longer than I and has more experience on the server. I played with them by a random chance and liked their rp as well. My complaints are partially from what they had told me afterward about wanting to quit because of how some of the players are, between bandwagoning and not giving them a chance (ie. Chasing somebody away because their looks.)

3) I am trying hard not to be specific as much as I can, obviously the examples I give sound like theyre calling certain people out because, yes there are certain people that it could be. I am not attempting to single people out, though perhaos not doing the best attempt.

4) There is no easy way to go about this ssubject. THe way I view what I say and the way it will be interpreted are much different. There is no way for this to sound neutral like it will to me.

5) My original subject. This was honestly lost to me a bit at this point. Lost in translation. What it was supposed to be is just a note asking for see variety in behavior from pcs that share mamy similarities, as well as calling out on metagaming a bit. My rant is probably out of place, I have no say in a community ive only been part of for a few months, but even if it makes people dislike me or think im an *bung-hole* because of the perception, something like this will at least be something readers will consider.

[Fleur de la chevalerie]

Aug 8, 2013 7:24:00 GMT -5 Fenix said:

Aug 8, 2013 4:56:23 GMT -5 mandene said:

Fenix. As I said in the beginning, you steped into something really bad here. It looks to me like you finally figured out the joy of roleplay, and just assume that many people on the server haven't figured it out yet. So you go on how people are playing generic characters, by giving expamples that aren't that specific. But, despite you defending yourself from angry comments, they did include finger pointing.

3) I am trying hard not to be specific as much as I can, obviously the examples I give sound like theyre calling certain people out because, yes there are certain people that it could be. I am not attempting to single people out, though perhaos not doing the best attempt.

4) There is no easy way to go about this ssubject. THe way I view what I say and the way it will be interpreted are much different. There is no way for this to sound neutral like it will to me.
5) My rant is probably out of place, I have no say in a community ive only been part of for a few months, but even if it makes people dislike me or think im an *bung-hole* because of the perception, something like this will at least be something readers will consider.

You've demonstrated a lack of respect in your posts here so far, regardless of how you attempt to cloak it in neutrality. Especially in regards to how people with (I would wager) a lot more experience with online rp play their characters. We were all new once, but I've rarely read and certainly never posted anything telling other people how to rp, and haven't in many years of online roleplaying.
There is no way for your remarks to sound neutral because they are not. You deliberately make mention of what you see as "wrong" or "generic" in the roleplay of other people.Spend a few more months getting to know the intricacies of characters and how they interact with the setting, other characters, and the server in general before deciding you know someone well enough to determine their entire depth.

[Fenix]

Aug 8, 2013 20:30:59 GMT -5 Fleur de la chevalerie said:

Aug 8, 2013 7:24:00 GMT -5 Fenix said:

3) I am trying hard not to be specific as much as I can, obviously the examples I give sound like theyre calling certain people out because, yes there are certain people that it could be. I am not attempting to single people out, though perhaos not doing the best attempt.

4) There is no easy way to go about this ssubject. THe way I view what I say and the way it will be interpreted are much different. There is no way for this to sound neutral like it will to me.
5) My rant is probably out of place, I have no say in a community ive only been part of for a few months, but even if it makes people dislike me or think im an *bung-hole* because of the perception, something like this will at least be something readers will consider.

You've demonstrated a lack of respect in your posts here so far, regardless of how you attempt to cloak it in neutrality. Especially in regards to how people with (I would wager) a lot more experience with online rp play their characters. We were all new once, but I've rarely read and certainly never posted anything telling other people how to rp, and haven't in many years of online roleplaying.
There is no way for your remarks to sound neutral because they are not. You deliberately make mention of what you see as "wrong" or "generic" in the roleplay of other people.Spend a few more months getting to know the intricacies of characters and how they interact with the setting, other characters, and the server in general before deciding you know someone well enough to determine their entire depth.

Honestly, I really have not been disrespectful. If you seem to think I have, since that is all you have told me, please point out HOW I have been. I am not telling anybody what to do or how to do it, I put this out as a DISCUSSION, as I said in my first post. I already acknowledged that I have less of a valuable opinion here than most players who have been here years on end, but please do not show me the same disrespect that you seem to think that I am showing you. This rant could easily have been me saying that I am right and everybody else is wrong, and I could point out every single person that should do something different. But I am not. I havent said hey everybody change right now. I understand that everybody has their own method, and I do not have some obscene issue with them for doing so at their own way. DnD is an open interpretation system, and roleplaying is equally the same. There are many ways to interpret the rules and methods of doing both, and I gave my most honest opinion on it to talk about as evenly as possible. I opened a discussion, not an argument.

[Fleur de la chevalerie]

Perhaps with examples given, you can see why it is read as disrespect and insult:

Aug 7, 2013 2:32:34 GMT -5 Fenix said:

1)Then I look at some of the other characters that wander around. I see at least a dozen necromancers, all being blatantly evil in the middle of the towns, like it was just okay to do so and essentially screaming HEY IM EVIL GIVE ME ATTENTION. Or I will see Paladins, a dime a dozen that do nothing about them. Paladins that get hellbent on one thing and stick closely to their values as a good paladin should. Now why does this bother me so much? People are just playing their roles right? Whats wrong with that? Nothing really.

But at the same time, thats just it. All most people seem to do is just play that role, not their character.

2)... Play that person. When you log on to the server each day, dont log in as Nick Skwarek playing Fenix Vale. Log in as Fenix Vale, The Wild Druid, the worshipper of silvanus. Be who they are.


3)But there are others(paladins) where the more I try and play with them and create something interesting, in the long run it just comes down to a lawful stupid kind of idealism where I have actually felt like I was talking to an NPC.

It's evident that others consider the posts at least ill-informed if not downright insulting, so heed their words as well.
As for my disrespecting you? I have not offered any criticism of your roleplay, of you, or in any way attempted to imply you were "doinitwrong".I wrote factually of what you were doing in your thread, and you have stated that you are new so there cannot possibly be any disrespect taken from my remark about "those with more experience."  I am done responding to this thread though, if you wish to reply to me please do so via PM.

[mandene]

I'm with Fleur de la chevalerie on this. Nothing good will come out of this thread, and it will never be about joys and ways of roleplay.