Animals and the act of killing them...

[Trollfiend]

Jul 14, 2013 2:47:05 GMT -5 spoonclacknredneck said:

Kay bro, I may not be a member of the FRC ole' timer's club, but I have seen, be it hooded PCs or the way PCs react to animals, you have a streak of demanding other players conform to the way you RP.

I don't play that game. I'm here to have a good time, I'm here to RP with intelligent folks, and I'm here to have some party PVE fun. I'm honestly not sure what you ae here for, but I've seen a multitude of threads you have started where you ae actively demanding that other players play the way you want them to.

The libertarian in me says "If it ain't causing you real physical harm, leave it the hell alone".

The gamer in me is saying "Dude, STFU."

I was going to not post again, but being told to shut the %#%# up was very uncalled for. So now, you get one last response.


You know, this really is all I'm asking for. Though I've made no demands in this entire thread... in fact, I think you're the one who's come the closest to making any at all with your last post, I think you have unintentionally hit on the entire point I've been trying to make. And not just me either... there's an entire guild who's been pushing for this and many more who aren't even in the guild. It's not just me, although, I think you may only see the original poster only without reading all the posts that follow.... am I right?

Anyway... All we're asking is that we be allowed to play and have fun. Is it fun to have 80% of the player base send you OOC tells and comments or threatening to PvP you just because you're in town with an animal companion? No, that's not part of the game. And, you yourself JUST admitted you haven't been here long so I'm pretty sure you're not in a place to disagree with me on this next point... 98% of all the reasons all the player base give for this harassment is OOC for both the city and the PC's themselves. In fact, DM Justicar himself has stated many times that players are not ever to speak for NPC's. Stating that you're killing my animal companion because the populace is frightened is a clear violation of this rule.

So.. you're saying that I'm ruining your fun by asking others to play and not ruin others'. It's not a productive post.

All us nature PC's are asking is that we be allowed to play and have fun. That players stop breaking character just because they see us doing something that, OOC'ly, they don't like. If there's an IC sign stating that the populace is okay with something, it's not for the player base to state the opposite.

Only those people called DM's can do that.

[Rane]

I did and i stand by it. Your controlling your companion. Just because it is a hawk, that doesnt mean you wont go crazy and attack someone. That hawk is the same thing as a drawn sword to both npcs and certain players.

If your goin to be allowed to have your hawk with you everywhere, then i want to ride into town on a nightmare leading a death knight singing kumbaya.

[Trollfiend]

Jul 14, 2013 6:08:56 GMT -5 Rane said:

I did and i stand by it. Your controlling your companion. Just because it is a hawk, that doesnt mean you wont go crazy and attack someone. That hawk is the same thing as a drawn sword to both npcs and certain players.

If your goin to be allowed to have your hawk with you everywhere, then i want to ride into town on a nightmare leading a death knight singing kumbaya.

So according to you, a warrior can only draw his sword and attack someone if he's riding a nightmare singing kumbaya? A warrior can't draw his blade and attack if he's not on a nightmare singing a silly song? What about if the warrior is indoors where a mount isn't allowed? The warrior is harmless? No mount, no ability to draw and attack... caves are out, I suppose.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret... My druid.... is (and this is NOT an exaggeration) is over 10 TIMES more dangerous than his hawk. His magical blade does cold, fire, and against undead, magical damage. His armour is top notch and his spells are deadly. And I know how to use them. His hawk? Short-lived buffs and a dismal armour class enables him to survive... about 7 seconds against the things my druid can tackle. I don't use the hawk in combat. the hawk sucks. It's a HORRIBLE combat pet. A warrior could easily destroy it. Well, only if the warrior was on a nightmare singing a silly song, that is. If my druid wanted to go beserk and attack the town, I CERTAINLY wouldn't use my hawk to do so.

I chose the hawk because... *GASP* it's a role playing server!

And once again... YOU, not being a DM, can't tell ME how the NPC's respond to things. That includes Cormyran cities.

P.S. --> You have panic attacks at pet stores, don't you?

[Rane]

Lol you dont even know me, we are talking about a game not real life first off. Secondly you missed the point.

Your hawk is a weapon, people do not care that you yourself are more deadly. Do you look at a person who draws a gun and say "ah screw it, the person holding the gun is more deadly."

No, you are more worried about the gun. That gun endangers your well being just like a hawk trained to attack anything its master wants it to does. If your allowed to have something like that out then i want to have my demons and undead out. It is the same principle.


Your hawk is a killer and so are my undead/demons.

As far as pet stores go, i guarantee you i have been around alot more wildlife than most of the peole here combined, and no they do not make me as a person uneasy.

[StabbingNirvana]

I think if you ride into town in that manner, it should be considered completely legal. Singing Kumbaya is the ultimate show of peace after all ...

[Deleted]

Jul 14, 2013 6:08:56 GMT -5 Rane said:

Just because it is a hawk, that doesnt mean you wont go crazy and attack someone.

Hold on a second. Rane. Forgive me, I don't mean to get personal. I just want to point out a flaw in the logic of what you've said and a double standard here. By that logic, a high level cleric capable of summoning grues and "going crazy" and then killing everyone in town should not be allowed to set foot in town. Not even unarmed, unaccompanied, and naked, because their spells are just too strong, and you never know when one might go off. We've all seen the cleric scenario. I don't think anyone has ever seen it from the hawk.

EDIT: I don't mean to take issue with "the cleric scenario." I'm just applying the same logic of possible attack to the cleric equally as to the hawk.

[Deleted]

Jul 14, 2013 6:27:41 GMT -5 Rane said:

Your hawk is a weapon ...

Chartered adventurers are allowed to carry weapons in civilized areas, even drawn, if I'm not mistaken.

The problem with demons and devils is that they are sentient weapons with a will of their own, and they only come to this plane with the intent of furthering their own evil agenda which involves dragging people off to the hells. Cormyr is also at war with an army of undead, at least at the moment, and summoning them is considered an act of war against the Crown. Neither of these does a hawk, or even a Tyrannosaurus Rex for that matter, qualify for.

Also, to no one in particular, I think the points made about keeping things IC and following rules about not speaking for NPC's are entirely valid points. Personally, if I roll into town with my ranger's panther in tow, I don't mind at all OOC'ly if people RP negative IC responses. But it would be good if other players don't play DM by telling me how NPC's would respond or make an OOC issue about how I've decided to RP my character.

[StabbingNirvana]

Sharauvyn, couldn't it be argued that if a ranger is walking around with a panther in tow while in town that the player of said ranger is indeed playing DM by choosing the NPC response of allowing said ranger to have a panther in town? WUUUUT?!

[Rane]

Jul 14, 2013 7:23:50 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

Sharauvyn, couldn't it be argued that if a ranger is walking around with a panther in tow while in town that the player of said ranger is indeed playing DM by choosing the NPC response of allowing said ranger to have a panther in town? WUUUUT?!

+1

[Deleted]

Jul 14, 2013 7:23:50 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

Sharauvyn, couldn't it be argued that if a ranger is walking around with a panther in tow while in town that the player of said ranger is indeed playing DM by choosing the NPC response of allowing said ranger to have a panther in town? WUUUUT?!

It could certainly be argued. This is why I don't do it. The point of my post was to differentiate between IC and OOC response to the creature. Also, if someone is "playing DM" like that, my understanding is that people are supposed to notify a DM and let them handle it, not engage the player about it OOC'ly themself, or start competing over who is going to RP the response of NPC's.

[StabbingNirvana]

So what's the proper way to handle it if a DM doesn't answer? Townsfolk have a responsibility to their fellow townsfolk to remove (not necessarily kill) a threat to the general safety of their town.

Edit for viewing pleasure:

Eagles throwing various large creatures down cliffs


Cheetah tries to end Adam Sandler movies

[Deleted]

Jul 14, 2013 8:19:59 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

So what's the proper way to handle it if a DM doesn't answer? Townsfolk have a responsibility to their fellow townsfolk to remove (not necessarily kill) a threat to the general safety of their town.

If you're asking me, I'd just say keep it in character, and just role play your own character without presuming what NPC reactions would be. If someone doesn't like a purely IC, fairly played response from other player characters whose players aren't presuming NPC reactions, directly or by implication, then they don't have the stomach to play in potentially contentious situations. You have the right to play a totally ignorant, animal hating buffoon of a character who doesn't have the first clue about the law and goes well beyond it just as much as they can play a character with an animal companion. But at the same time, one person's stretching the rules doesn't give license for others to do *that*.

In my opinion, perfectly fine is, "If you don't take this animal out of town, I am going to ... (insert your own character's IC response)." There's no presumption of NPC response there, just your own response.

Again, in my opinion, as I understand the rules, not okay would be, "'Look, the children are running away scared, and you're going to get in trouble.' *watches the guards begin to gather*" The children might be more curious than scared, and it might be the lazy guards on duty today. But either way, they're not your character.

If I'm the one RP'ing with a person who has an animal in town, and no DM responds, that's on the DM's. It doesn't make me part of The Team, nor is it my failing if nothing gets done. I either roll with it, or leave the area and RP with someone who plays more to my liking. If it is a serious, repeated problem, then I PM a DM or send one a tell about it at the first opportunity.

[iangallowglas]

I think as a PC you should just back off. When someone brings a familiar into town or a big animal, I don't have my characters attack the animal or familiar. Instead I either leave, or more likely I have my character draw his weapon and prepare to defend himself. My characters are generally smart enough and experienced enough to know what animal companions and familiars are, and also smart enough to know that their actions are generally controlled by their masters/buddies. I would likely say IC,"hey there, there is a law against familiars." With Hawks, or other small animals I'd likely just ignore them. I did just such a thing with Seamus when he was a member of the RCMH and had arresting powers, because he considered a wolf in town a minor offense and not worth acting on.

What you do IC is, of course, your choice. Just saying what I would and have done.

P.S. I also agree that the animal companion is a big part of a nature types RP. IMO, in rural communities, it wouldn't be unheard of for a ranger, or druid, (who some or most people would see as protectors of the community and healers of both humans and livestock) to have their trusted animal along with them in town. In fact, it could be seen as a sign of their connection to both the gods an nature, and give confidence to the townsfolk that the gods are looking out for them.

Now in big cities...not so muchi.

[Deleted]

I think a little touch that could go a long way to supporting ranger and druid RP would be making ways to bypass ALL the cities and towns by travelling through wilderness. Or even just having the outer areas have a little strip of grass to walk on outside the city walls. There's nothing like strolling through the wilderness from Greatgaunt to Dhedluk and having to summon and unsummon my companion if I want to walk with him, having to rest each time, twice, along the way, just because the supposedly expansive wilderness areas of Cormyr aren't represented to the point that I - *must* - walk right through downtown Suzail on the way.

[bentusi16]

Jul 14, 2013 9:07:23 GMT -5 @sharauvyn said:

I think a little touch that could go a long way to supporting ranger and druid RP would be making ways to bypass ALL the cities and towns by travelling through wilderness. Or even just having the outer areas have a little strip of grass to walk on outside the city walls. There's nothing like strolling through the wilderness from Greatgaunt to Dhedluk and having to summon and unsummon my companion if I want to walk with him, having to rest each time, twice, along the way, just because the supposedly expansive wilderness areas of Cormyr aren't represented to the point that I - *must* - walk right through downtown Suzail on the way.

The only problem with that is that the people want to RP with other people and that's a bit hard if you never get to see anyone.

Believe me. I sat in Arabel for months and only saw one person regularly.

[Deleted]

Well, sure, it won't fix everything, but it would be a nice little touch to not have to resummon an animal repeatedly on a simple walk. And you very well may also be walking with a party and not alone on the same trip.

[Trollfiend]

Jul 14, 2013 7:23:50 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

Sharauvyn, couldn't it be argued that if a ranger is walking around with a panther in tow while in town that the player of said ranger is indeed playing DM by choosing the NPC response of allowing said ranger to have a panther in town? WUUUUT?!

This would be wrong, as panthers are not allowed in towns, but according to Cormyran law, hawks are.

[Trollfiend]

Jul 14, 2013 8:19:59 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

So what's the proper way to handle it if a DM doesn't answer? Townsfolk have a responsibility to their fellow townsfolk to remove (not necessarily kill) a threat to the general safety of their town.

Edit for viewing pleasure:

Eagles throwing various large creatures down cliffs

LOLOL ROFL!! Surely you're not comparing a red tailed hawk to a golden eagle, are you?!?!?!?!?! LOLOL

That's like comparing a house cat to a LION!!! ROFL!!!

And yes, my analogy is dead on. I've done the research. And I don't mean a simple wikipedia search.

Just for fun, here's a video of a golden eagle being used to hunt- a trained eagle.
As I said, this is FAR more powerful than a red-tailed hawk. A red-tailed hawk is about the size of a falcon.
A hawk doesn't have the size, strength, or prowress that the golden eagle has. Like I said, it's
like comparing a house cat to a lion. Cats hunt mice, snakes, and small birds... So do hawks.
Golden Eagles hunt big game.

[Trollfiend]

Things you're not allowed to do:

1. Kill a player for having his sword out while cleaning or sharpening it while in town.
2. Kill a mage who is casting light.
3. Kill a necromancer who's killed townspeople before.
4. Kill a known follower of Cyric who walks into town.
5. Kill an evil cleric who threatens to burn down the whole town and kill everyone in it.

All these laws are in place. It's LEGAL to have your blade drawn in a non-threatening way. If you wave it around like you just don't care, player characters STILL can't murder you. The guard may arrest you, but no PC is authorized to kill you. By the same token, the first person who kills an animal companion of my druid is going to die horribly under the self-defense clause because attacking an animal that's allowed in town is also illegal. DM's have stated that it's considered an attack on the druid or mage. The guard may come and banish the animal, but another player would be considered an antagonist. Hey, it's Cormyran law. I didn't make it up.

Also, I don't know of ONE incident in all the years I've played on this server where a druid sent his animal companion on a townspeople killing spree. I know of more incidents than I can count of mages and clerics summoning demons to kill everyone or warriors taking blade to everyone, but druids? Not even once.

And we still let mages and clerics- EVEN EVIL ONES back into town. It's Cormyran law. And what's more? The known evil ones are allowed to keep their adventurer's charter...

which brings me to yet another point... The adventurer's charter authorises druids to have weapons out in the open in a non-threatening way, which includes companions. That's why there's a seperate law governing them and THAT law states hawks aren't generally viewed as threatening.

I don't know how meany more ways to say it, guys. You're not allowed to go around killing druids and their companions when they're not attacking the town. It's illegal.

And Cormyran law states that "The harming of cats is prohibited" so killing a druid's panther will get you HANGED. How can you be a long time player without even knowing the very law you're here trying to debate?

[StabbingNirvana]

I wasn't comparing.

Birds are dicks

[Trollfiend]

That falcon was only expressing dominance over its kill. Young falcons do that naturally.

The falcon never attacked the dog- only asserted itself as an alpha would. The dog chose to back down rather than fight for dominance for itself. All the dog would have had to do is bark, growl, and not back down. This dance is done all over nature. It wasn't an attack. It was food rights. That's all. If it was an attack, it would have been more vicious. Watch a dog go after a falcon's nest and you'll see an entirely different behavior.

[Trollfiend]

Jul 14, 2013 6:27:41 GMT -5 Rane said:

As far as pet stores go, i guarantee you i have been around alot more wildlife than most of the peole here combined, and no they do not make me as a person uneasy.

Why do I find this hard to believe? I promise YOU that the people of Greatgaunt have been around wildlife far more than you or I have. I've been around wildlife a lot also.

[Fenix]

Jul 14, 2013 7:23:50 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

Sharauvyn, couldn't it be argued that if a ranger is walking around with a panther in tow while in town that the player of said ranger is indeed playing DM by choosing the NPC response of allowing said ranger to have a panther in town? WUUUUT?!

On technicality, the AI do have, you know, Artificial Intelligence. Therefore if my pather was a threat to them, would they not therefore react by immediately killing it remorselessley? Well last I checked they did not. Therefore the people of cormyr realize even that a druids familiar is of no threat to them. so this point is fairly null.

[Trollfiend]

If the panther is under a druid's or ranger's care (i.e. an anima companion) and the druid or ranger is good aligned, then that panther is NOT a threat to the townsfolk. EVER. You may be a threat to the panther or you may FEEL that the panther is a threat, but that doesn't MAKE the panther a threat. It's English, guys.

Come on. That's like saying a paladin is a threat to an orphanage. Saying it or thinking it doesn't make it so!

[bloodalchemist]

Just for clarification and my apologies if I missed this earlier in the thread, but what exactly are you asking for? Do you just want to be able to have a hawk in town from the list of animal companions, or are you wanting more from the list available? The only other animal companion I imagine being acceptable by a peasant would maybe be a badger.
I enjoy good rp of nature stuff, especially using animal companions to add to it. However it already gets old seeing shapeshifted snakes and stuff in town, large ones, already. Maybe certain cities would loosen these restrictions, especially those with more elves or naturing types living there. I cannot imagine great gaunt peasants being hay at all to see a wolf walking through town, even a somewhat tame one. Especially around any ranchers as they are likely to own dogs that are trained to chase off or even attack wolves on sight to protect a herd. A hawk? Yeah it could cause trouble but couldn't just about anything?

TLDR; If it's just a hawk whatever. None of my characters are going to freak out about it. Snakes, wolves, panthers and other exotic predators known to be able to really pose a threat to someone, more than likely will get 1-2 warnings before either my character leaves or makes the animal leave.

[Fenix]

Jul 14, 2013 12:30:59 GMT -5 Trollfiend said:

If the panther is under a druid's or ranger's care (i.e. an anima companion) and the druid or ranger is good aligned, then that panther is NOT a threat to the townsfolk. EVER. You may be a threat to the panther or you may FEEL that the panther is a threat, but that doesn't MAKE the panther a threat. It's English, guys.

Come on. That's like saying a paladin is a threat to an orphanage. Saying it or thinking it doesn't make it so!

well its just like I said in my post on the last page, just because the panther is there, doesnt mean the druid is going to go mad on a killing spree with it. Honestly, my panther cant even last against hobgoblins half the time, i doubt it would last against any PC in town twice its level and ten times its strength. But banning it from town because you think the druid could easily have ill intent is the equivalent of saying anybody who knows magic of any form is not allowed in town because you cant control that magic. You dont know if maybe that magic will set fires or summon a giant demon lord. Hell, maybe they found a way to use light to cause permanent blindness to the target, but then you cant have a priest come heal them because priests could easily kill them with holy creatures.

These arguments against it are literally predictions of "oh hey they MIGHT do this." So what if they do? Then the law takes over. If I went into greatgaunt tonight and started systematically killing everybody with the use of my panther, then I would be jailed or executed for it, as mandated. Because I am killing people. Not because my panther is a panther. Because I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT ACTION. ACTION. I DID SOMETHING. You know what that panther did? Sit there. and be a panther. nothing else. He was my companion, and acted in a civilized manner, until which point I gave him the command to help me in the bloodbath.

[Fenix]

Jul 14, 2013 12:33:01 GMT -5 bloodalchemist said:

Just for clarification and my apologies if I missed this earlier in the thread, but what exactly are you asking for? Do you just want to be able to have a hawk in town from the list of animal companions, or are you wanting more from the list available? The only other animal companion I imagine being acceptable by a peasant would maybe be a badger.
I enjoy good rp of nature stuff, especially using animal companions to add to it. However it already gets old seeing shapeshifted snakes and stuff in town, large ones, already. Maybe certain cities would loosen these restrictions, especially those with more elves or naturing types living there. I cannot imagine great gaunt peasants being hay at all to see a wolf walking through town, even a somewhat tame one. Especially around any ranchers as they are likely to own dogs that are trained to chase off or even attack wolves on sight to protect a herd. A hawk? Yeah it could cause trouble but couldn't just about anything?

TLDR; If it's just a hawk whatever. None of my characters are going to freak out about it. Snakes, wolves, panthers and other exotic predators known to be able to really pose a threat to someone, more than likely will get 1-2 warnings before either my character leaves or makes the animal leave.

1) Its any companion in general. If you read any post, it explains how druids work. Their companion is as civilized as the druid, and honestly if the townsfolk had an issue with them, the AI would certainly kill them.

2) Attacking any familiar is an attack on the host.

[Trollfiend]

Jul 14, 2013 12:33:01 GMT -5 bloodalchemist said:

Just for clarification and my apologies if I missed this earlier in the thread, but what exactly are you asking for? Do you just want to be able to have a hawk in town from the list of animal companions, or are you wanting more from the list available? The only other animal companion I imagine being acceptable by a peasant would maybe be a badger.
I enjoy good rp of nature stuff, especially using animal companions to add to it. However it already gets old seeing shapeshifted snakes and stuff in town, large ones, already. Maybe certain cities would loosen these restrictions, especially those with more elves or naturing types living there. I cannot imagine great gaunt peasants being hay at all to see a wolf walking through town, even a somewhat tame one. Especially around any ranchers as they are likely to own dogs that are trained to chase off or even attack wolves on sight to protect a herd. A hawk? Yeah it could cause trouble but couldn't just about anything?

TLDR; If it's just a hawk whatever. None of my characters are going to freak out about it. Snakes, wolves, panthers and other exotic predators known to be able to really pose a threat to someone, more than likely will get 1-2 warnings before either my character leaves or makes the animal leave.

Basically, my intent was to stop what many players consider an ooc attack on them.

See, when a druid brings a companion into town, people will go out of their way to make life impossible for that druid up to and including killing the druid and his animal.

Despite the existence of a sign stating hawks and other small companions are generally accepted within the towns, even staff members will more often than not demand that the druid banish the pet when entering any of the cities just to keep the peace.

It pretty much makes it impossible to RP one of the greatest aspects of being a nature class.

[Fenix]

Jul 14, 2013 12:47:09 GMT -5 Trollfiend said:

Jul 14, 2013 12:33:01 GMT -5 bloodalchemist said:

Just for clarification and my apologies if I missed this earlier in the thread, but what exactly are you asking for? Do you just want to be able to have a hawk in town from the list of animal companions, or are you wanting more from the list available? The only other animal companion I imagine being acceptable by a peasant would maybe be a badger.
I enjoy good rp of nature stuff, especially using animal companions to add to it. However it already gets old seeing shapeshifted snakes and stuff in town, large ones, already. Maybe certain cities would loosen these restrictions, especially those with more elves or naturing types living there. I cannot imagine great gaunt peasants being hay at all to see a wolf walking through town, even a somewhat tame one. Especially around any ranchers as they are likely to own dogs that are trained to chase off or even attack wolves on sight to protect a herd. A hawk? Yeah it could cause trouble but couldn't just about anything?

TLDR; If it's just a hawk whatever. None of my characters are going to freak out about it. Snakes, wolves, panthers and other exotic predators known to be able to really pose a threat to someone, more than likely will get 1-2 warnings before either my character leaves or makes the animal leave.

Basically, my intent was to stop what many players consider an ooc attack on them.

See, when a druid brings a companion into town, people will go out of their way to make life impossible for that druid up to and including killing the druid and his animal.

Despite the existence of a sign stating hawks and other small companions are generally accepted within the towns, even staff members will more often than not demand that the druid banish the pet when entering any of the cities just to keep the peace.

It pretty much makes it impossible to RP one of the greatest aspects of being a nature class.

This.

[Razgriz]

I do think something could be given here. Maybe allowing animal companions in rural towns like Greatgaunt, but not in a large city like Suzail?

Oh well...Maybe not.