kalbaern
Old School
Damned dirty elves!
Posts: 296
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Post by kalbaern on Mar 2, 2013 14:59:10 GMT -5
We need crates of hidding +10. Oh and bolts of sleeping. It could be done, well ... sort of. Most placeables used in NWN either have a flat PWK or no PWK attached to them. While this makes for somewhat smaller file sizes, it's also why you can "see" and "shoot" through many placeables. If most large placeables had been made -correctly- we'd already be able to hide behide large crates, hay wagons, tree trunks and many other things. they'd block line of sight just as most other large tileset features do already. A few inculded in the CEP work this way already, but it's a mere handful. This spring, I plan to start -fixing- many of the large placeables for my own use so that they do block LoS. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2013 16:58:22 GMT -5
I think things are fine the way they are. As someone pointed out, using traps is just a class skill for rogues and rangers. Expecting them to use them less is like asking a caster not to spam death magic at their foes and hope for a natural 1 to come up. I think it's fair to lead monsters over long lines of traps, because yes, dungeon monsters are crazy stupid, but the areas are built to be challenging anyways, even if the monsters are stupid. If the monsters suddenly became smart, an area that you normally can solo would be prohibitive to a like-level party. Also, if you burn 40 traps in one go, then you can only do that so many times before you are out of traps and back to the drawing board collecting them again. I think traps should not be "neutral." If you lay a trap, you know where it is, and so does your party, because your character presumably show/tells them. If an enemy carefully observes you laying a trap, sure they might know it's there, but they don't necessarily know *exactly* how it works to the point of being able to avoid tripping it. Also, about intelligent monsters and using large numbers of traps, most of the traps I come across, at least, are a joke as for how much damage they do. If every trap actually kinda did something in its own right, okay, I could see limiting the number used in one encounter. But it's not exactly like a minor frost trap lets out a wail of the banshee when an enemy runs through it.  |
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Post by minion on Mar 2, 2013 20:08:15 GMT -5
... A great example is when you lure enemies 1 at a time, kill them within 50' of their buddies who somehow do not hear or see a battle going on right under their noses, and never seem to question why their pals keep wandering off one after the other outside of their ridiculous perception range and not coming back. ... please take this as precisely what it is meant as: an observation on the nature of these discussions. we have been told that we should use tactics to address what players have variously described as "absurd," "pretty tough," "nasty," and simply very challenging dungeons, spawns, bosses, etc. when players gripe about not being able to go anywhere because of the weakness of their individual PC or a poor party composition, one of the tactics we (the playerbase of FRC) have been explicitly told to use, by DMs past and probably present, is luring individuals away from groups to deal with incredibly challenging spawns. so, either we need to stop luring and pick less difficult spawns so that we can meet expectations of realism, or we need to stretch our expectations of realism to accommodate spawns that are beyond our ability when fought together. now this is meant, as i suggested at the beginning, as a larger commentary. we will always have to choose where the line between "absurd RP" and "absurdly un-fun mechanics" lies, because there are a lot of circumstances where the mechanics don't support both good RP and a game you don't want to shred and burn every other day. personally, i would draw that line somewhere in between the extremes. (i'm aware of how vague that is, and i'm fine to leave it there right this second.  ) |
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Post by quelunia on Mar 2, 2013 20:56:34 GMT -5
In the vein of minions thoughts... I will say this...
A party comprising of a rogue, two warrior types and either a mage or a cleric... wander at level 5 to the Orcs outside GG. While in the cave, this group send the rogue ahead to scout, he reports back at the enterance there are 3 orcs grumbleing about guard duty ahead... and he heard more further down the tunnel. From here the warriro skilled tactician as he is says, lay a trap at the mouth of the cave to ensure we have warning should any more return to the cave, then we will move ahead. So the rogue sets a trap, then reports it done as the warrirors raise shield before the mage/cleric member. The rogue moves ahead in the shadows pitches a rock at the orc party hitting one in the back of the head none of the others see or hear.. the one orc swears to the oters it didnt fall it had ot have been thrown, they laugh and mock the weakling trying to hide the fact.. The bruised ego of the orc leads it to decide.. I will show you I bring back the body of whatever it was... This orc wanders back looking for the many that hit him with the rock.. only to spot the warriors just int time to open his mouth to raise the alarm.. a blade from behind strikes through its throat silencing the scream before it could start. The other two orcs .. grumble and laugh .. then they think they hear a thud... the stronger orders the other to go look into it... meanwhile the stronger orc peers into the distance watching from behind... Again this orc is ambushed the party charges ahead before the otehr spying on them can run to alert the others the roue reported he heard..... Arrows fly at his legs to slow him as the faster of the two warriors catches the Orc slashing his achiellies tendon the other warrior swings a deadly blow on the back of its downed head. The group ahead hears the scuffle from the mouth of the cave and the mage slings a fireball ahead just out of range of the warriors.. the rogue uses the flash and disruption of sight to slink into the shadows moving slowly and quietly ahead... the warriors stand side by side against the badly burnt orc charge... and swing swing swing then more orcs come.. this group hits a trap the rogue laid...
You see there is a RP excusse and tactical reason to do this. If it had been a cleric a globe of darkness could have been launched... Zone of silence... Just saying... Depends on the group and what is RP'd.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2013 1:43:36 GMT -5
I play a rogue who uses luring to solo dungeons now and then. The way I think of my rogue doing this is not so much as her showing herself to an enemy and waiting for them to chase. For the sake of my imagination of what the character really does is that she lurks somewhere and waits for a monster to wander away from the group (maybe to use the privy or something) and then jumps him when he is alone. Since monsters never really wander far, the opportunity won't present itself by the monster's behavior. But I think of my rogue's luring as doing that - lurking out of sight somewhere, waiting for someone to wander off from the herd, jumping that one, and doing it again. Maybe not a perfect rationale, but it's what I do with it.
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Post by Trollfiend on Mar 3, 2013 7:16:00 GMT -5
Luring enemies across a line of traps is a legitimate strategy  I've lured players down lines of traps so I see no reason why I can't lure NPC's |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2013 9:56:35 GMT -5
Luring enemies across a line of traps is a legitimate strategy I've lured players down lines of traps so I see no reason why I can't lure NPC's When you hit a trap or two, if you can't see them all, the temptation is to think that you've hit them all, that one or two is the end of it, and you're in the clear now. I mean, how many could there be? And when you're running across them at a rate of about 2 per second, it's really not much time to realize what's going on. Plus, if the rogue or ranger is shooting arrows at you, you don't have a missile weapon to hit back from range, and the entirety of a narrow passage is totally lined with traps, what else are you going to do? |
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Post by Rane on Mar 5, 2013 6:04:42 GMT -5
I just pretend I'm Solid Snake whenever I pull mobs. Is it reasonable to think that they're always in neat little clusters of six and eight? I dunno, what are you RPing at the moment, a spawn of eight or four pairs of two?. We need crates of hidding +10. Oh and bolts of sleeping. Not crates. Boxes and barrels. We should be able to hold up npcs and shake them down for identification. Rogues should be able to knock them unconcious and store them in lockers. Lol |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2013 15:35:55 GMT -5
Rogues should be able to knock them unconcious and store them in lockers. |
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Post by Razgriz on Mar 5, 2013 19:45:23 GMT -5
We need crates of hidding +10. Oh and bolts of sleeping. Not crates. Boxes and barrels. We should be able to hold up npcs and shake them down for identification. Rogues should be able to knock them unconcious and store them in lockers. Lol x10! |
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Post by 828stingstingneo on Mar 6, 2013 10:07:52 GMT -5
I don't really have a strong opinion on this, but the whole idea of whether certain tactics are IC or OOC got me thinking. If we are truly IC, won't our characters figure out how the monsters in their world actually behave? Our characters can learn from experience that a monster will ignore their traps the same way they can learn from experience that a certain merchant's prices are better than another's. Is it better to pretend that our characters have some outside knowledge of how creatures would act in a real world they don't even know exists and would place their faith in this knowledge rather than in their own personal experience? Hmm.
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