metagaming

[sky]

metagaming's bad, mmmkay...

It seems more and more that it all starts with one person metagaming, and they tell one person, then they tell another and so on and so forth until a large portion of the server knows information that would otherwise be impossible for them to know.

so when someone says "that person is 'X' ", remember, check your sources, otherwise we're just playing telephone.

[minsafedistance]

<General opinion follows>

Assuming that any PC could +only+ know certain information because they have 'metagamed' it is also metagaming

People make guesses, are observant, link small known facts to make larger facts, have intuition, hear snippets, see what is visible, be invisble/ in stealth while you pass by.

Some PCs might hide things better than other PCs you trust, information leaks can happen from sources other than the PC with the secret.

Please do not discount that there are people who idly gossip between themselves and sometimes this gossip becomes 'fact'. There are people who enjoy solving mysteries and everyones secrets are always a mystery to them.


It disappoints me that some people call 'foul' and assume that metagaming has occurred when their 'secrets' are revealed.

It also disappoints me that some people put secrets in plain sight on forums and then call metagaming when people can work things out IC

It also disppoints me when people actually metagame information that they could not otherwise have heard, obtained or themeselves worked out.


<more specific to the OP>

That said Sky, I do not know of your situation. So the above may or may not apply to you at all.

Isn't it a much more interesting story to wonder which of your 'close friends' might have just sold you out though?

Sky
It has happened in the past where the assumption of metagaming was made, so thanks for the opportunity to air my gripe. Hope yer do not mind too much it was in your thread. The OOC gaining of any information is rather vexing and sets up situations that tend to have a poor resolution.

I think it was Lady Frost who said something like "Do not expect private or secret information to stay that way if you post it publically, talk about it OOC (or IC) or send tells with that information in it".

[EDM Neo]

Sept 14, 2012 2:06:31 GMT -5 minsafedistance said:

<General opinion follows>

Assuming that any PC could +only+ know certain information because they have 'metagamed' it is also metagaming

People make guesses, are observant, link small known facts to make larger facts, have intuition, hear snippets, see what is visible, be invisble/ in stealth while you pass by.

Some PCs might hide things better than other PCs you trust, information leaks can happen from sources other than the PC with the secret.

Please do not discount that there are people who idly gossip between themselves and sometimes this gossip becomes 'fact'. There are people who enjoy solving mysteries and everyones secrets are always a mystery to them.


It disappoints me that some people call 'foul' and assume that metagaming has occurred when their 'secrets' are revealed.

It also disappoints me that some people put secrets in plain sight on forums and then call metagaming when people can work things out IC

It also disppoints me when people actually metagame information that they could not otherwise have heard, obtained or themeselves worked out.


<more specific to the OP>

That said Sky, I do not know of your situation. So the above may or may not apply to you at all.

Isn't it a much more interesting story to wonder which of your 'close friends' might have just sold you out though?

Sky
It has happened in the past where the assumption of metagaming was made, so thanks for the opportunity to air my gripe. Hope yer do not mind too much it was in your thread. The OOC gaining of any information is rather vexing and sets up situations that tend to have a poor resolution.

I think it was Lady Frost who said something like "Do not expect private or secret information to stay that way if you post it publically, talk about it OOC (or IC) or send tells with that information in it".

Cannot +1 this hard enough. I may even have to +2 it. It is important to be careful not to actually metagame things, but just because you do not know how someone could have figured something out doesn't mean they're cheating by knowing it and spreading it.

[catmage]

Sept 14, 2012 2:06:31 GMT -5 minsafedistance said:

<General opinion follows>

Assuming that any PC could +only+ know certain information because they have 'metagamed' it is also metagaming

People make guesses, are observant, link small known facts to make larger facts, have intuition, hear snippets, see what is visible, be invisble/ in stealth while you pass by.

Some PCs might hide things better than other PCs you trust, information leaks can happen from sources other than the PC with the secret.

Please do not discount that there are people who idly gossip between themselves and sometimes this gossip becomes 'fact'. There are people who enjoy solving mysteries and everyones secrets are always a mystery to them.


It disappoints me that some people call 'foul' and assume that metagaming has occurred when their 'secrets' are revealed.

It also disappoints me that some people put secrets in plain sight on forums and then call metagaming when people can work things out IC

It also disppoints me when people actually metagame information that they could not otherwise have heard, obtained or themeselves worked out.


<more specific to the OP>

That said Sky, I do not know of your situation. So the above may or may not apply to you at all.

Isn't it a much more interesting story to wonder which of your 'close friends' might have just sold you out though?

Sky
It has happened in the past where the assumption of metagaming was made, so thanks for the opportunity to air my gripe. Hope yer do not mind too much it was in your thread. The OOC gaining of any information is rather vexing and sets up situations that tend to have a poor resolution.

I think it was Lady Frost who said something like "Do not expect private or secret information to stay that way if you post it publically, talk about it OOC (or IC) or send tells with that information in it".

Much yesness. Information has a funny way of getting spread, and you can never discount characters and players with deductive ability, spying ability, or a network of information.

[Lady Frost]

Sept 14, 2012 2:43:05 GMT -5 EDM Neo said:

Sept 14, 2012 2:06:31 GMT -5 minsafedistance said:

<General opinion follows>

Assuming that any PC could +only+ know certain information because they have 'metagamed' it is also metagaming

People make guesses, are observant, link small known facts to make larger facts, have intuition, hear snippets, see what is visible, be invisble/ in stealth while you pass by.

Some PCs might hide things better than other PCs you trust, information leaks can happen from sources other than the PC with the secret.

Please do not discount that there are people who idly gossip between themselves and sometimes this gossip becomes 'fact'. There are people who enjoy solving mysteries and everyones secrets are always a mystery to them.


It disappoints me that some people call 'foul' and assume that metagaming has occurred when their 'secrets' are revealed.

It also disappoints me that some people put secrets in plain sight on forums and then call metagaming when people can work things out IC

It also disppoints me when people actually metagame information that they could not otherwise have heard, obtained or themeselves worked out.


<more specific to the OP>

That said Sky, I do not know of your situation. So the above may or may not apply to you at all.

Isn't it a much more interesting story to wonder which of your 'close friends' might have just sold you out though?

Sky
It has happened in the past where the assumption of metagaming was made, so thanks for the opportunity to air my gripe. Hope yer do not mind too much it was in your thread. The OOC gaining of any information is rather vexing and sets up situations that tend to have a poor resolution.

I think it was Lady Frost who said something like "Do not expect private or secret information to stay that way if you post it publically, talk about it OOC (or IC) or send tells with that information in it".

Cannot +1 this hard enough. I may even have to +2 it. It is important to be careful not to actually metagame things, but just because you do not know how someone could have figured something out doesn't mean they're cheating by knowing it and spreading it.

I agree as well. I've seen this first hand. I saw all the ways that this certain information spread; as soon as the player that it was spread about found out they cried 'metagaming' when in fact it wasn't. They claimed there was no way anyone could know. I explained just how it got out and while reluctant to give up their claim they could understand it better.

Sometime people just say things too, they could be completely guessing and manage to get something right.

And yes, I will very openly advocate for never telling something you don't want to get out. If someone knows, even OOC'ly, it creates all sorts of problems, intentionally or not.

[moonelf]

I think for me the hardest thing to keep from being metagamed is someone in disguise. The only way to let people know your in disguise really is to continually emote it. And that can be a difficult task unless you quick slot it and spam it. Even then, it's not good enough as people in the distance can maybe still see you, but not hear the emote. So all it takes is one person to hit tab, see your name and say to themselves "I know that person, it's Ro".

Then the possibilities of "Hey johnny, i seen Ro today walking along side with billy jean, isn't he a demon lover"?

And though we could all just rp that person "thought" it was Ro, even though Ro was out of earshot emoting "disguised", I can see how the "Assumption" rp (If that's how we play it out) can easily be considered Metagaming.

We could send everyone a tell asking "hey, you in disguise"? But that can cause other metagaming as my story below will demonstrate.

Back on another server where the high volume of players was considered great rp'ers...

I was an elven ranger, sneaking about in the woods on patrol alone. I heard a couple voices talking about attacking the elven encampment. It was dark, a lot of trees, and I slowly worked my way much closer until I was just around the corner from them, maybe 10 feet away. Kept the rock wall between us as I listened to them. I peaked once around to get a good view of them. Then I sent both a tell asking if they were disguised or any reason I would not know it was them two (Which I knew both of them if they were not disguised). One had just asked the other a question when they received my tells.

Now knowing oocly someone was around, they both stopped talking for a long time. Neither answered my tells, and then they both left the woods not having rp'd another word. Since neither decided to play along, I rp'd knowing who they were and what they were planning to do.

Also, asking people oocly in tells, "Hey, mind of I ask how you found that out? I have a feeling metagaming is in play here and I just want to be sure is all"?

Well, people may not want you to know how they learned it in fear THAT will be some how attached to other metagaming.

On this server Tonan or maybe it was deliverance had sent me a tell asking how I found out about something as they were making sure metagaming was not in play. I answered how I came to know it and all was good.

Metagaming is a vicious cycle. It happens, it's annoying and sometime it down right ruins a story line and rp. Other times it's manageable.

[Lady Frost]

In regards to disguises.

I think I do a fairly consistent job at emoting whether or not Zoe is in disguise. When she is in her normal attire she is always identifiable and when she's not I tend to emote if she is or isn't. What I've found by commonly emoting when she is and isn't in disguise, is that people are more cautious when I don't emote because they're used to my emoting and want to make sure, so I'll get tells asking what the situation is. If you have a PC that you never emote being disguised most people will come to assume you never are and few will think twice about it.

Also, along the same lines, Zoe tends to always wear her common red and black attire. I don't change her outfit all the time and people have gotten fairly used to what she wears. If she suddenly shows up in something different it's more noticeable than if I always have her change her attire and I find players are more careful when she's dressed differently.

[quelunia]

However, if the information on the Forums not in the form of a Journal just a short story is the inspiration to suddenly decide you better look into someones back ground that IS metagaming.

If you arent going around looking into everyone elses you come by why would just because you read a bio on the forums be grounds to pop up and say ..." Hmmm I am gonna play Shelock Holmes today" That doesnt pass the smell test.

[Deleted]

1- I have to add two cents saying yes, it seems to me accusations of metagaming get made most often when the flow of information was totally legit. Here's a thought that might be a little humbling: If someone knows something they "aren't supposed to," either they metagamed, or they fooled you to get the information without you knowing, which would mean you wouldn't know they got the information, because you were fooled. Just how hard do you think you are to fool?

2 - If you are going to play in plots where other players might want to play a character who opposes yours, I find it more fun to play with the idea that my character will get found out and have to deal with some sticky situations. If I really don't want to deal with such situations, then I don't play in that plot. I find that if I play for the harrowing scenes that come when my character gets found out and people come after her, it's more fun when it happens, and I don't really care if someone metagamed against me anyways, because I wanted the chase/capture/assassination attempt/public verbal confrontation/what-ever-response scene anyways.

3 - I think it helps a lot if people make it easy for others to avoid metagaming. One of my real peeves is making a character's floaty name something other than what they go by, and then call metagaming when someone calls them by it. (This includes first or last names that are never given out.) I always have to note it in my journal that so and so introduced themself as a different name, and if I met the character once three weeks ago, I may still forget. If it's sitting over your character's head for hours at a time, sitting on the player list, five days a week for months, sooner or later, *someone* is going to refer to you as "Joe Bob," and not just "Joe" or "Bob," or the "Ralph Jones" that you always call yourself. Once it happens one time, your full name is now out there. Do yourself the favor by making it easy for other people to not do that.

[Pithirendar]

Sept 14, 2012 2:06:31 GMT -5 minsafedistance said:

<General opinion follows>

Assuming that any PC could +only+ know certain information because they have 'metagamed' it is also metagaming

People make guesses, are observant, link small known facts to make larger facts, have intuition, hear snippets, see what is visible, be invisble/ in stealth while you pass by.

Some PCs might hide things better than other PCs you trust, information leaks can happen from sources other than the PC with the secret.

Please do not discount that there are people who idly gossip between themselves and sometimes this gossip becomes 'fact'. There are people who enjoy solving mysteries and everyones secrets are always a mystery to them.


It disappoints me that some people call 'foul' and assume that metagaming has occurred when their 'secrets' are revealed.

It also disappoints me that some people put secrets in plain sight on forums and then call metagaming when people can work things out IC

It also disppoints me when people actually metagame information that they could not otherwise have heard, obtained or themeselves worked out.


<more specific to the OP>

That said Sky, I do not know of your situation. So the above may or may not apply to you at all.

Isn't it a much more interesting story to wonder which of your 'close friends' might have just sold you out though?

Sky
It has happened in the past where the assumption of metagaming was made, so thanks for the opportunity to air my gripe. Hope yer do not mind too much it was in your thread. The OOC gaining of any information is rather vexing and sets up situations that tend to have a poor resolution.

I think it was Lady Frost who said something like "Do not expect private or secret information to stay that way if you post it publically, talk about it OOC (or IC) or send tells with that information in it".

Completely agree. Saved me writing a post MsD

[canuckkane]

As it pertains to disguises, I myself follow a personal rule regarding people my characters "know". If they are in different clothing than I have seen them in previously I send a tell asking "In diguise?" or "Would I recognize you?" before saying ANYTHING in character. If everyone would do the same, then we wouldn't need to worry about metagaming someone in disguise.

The above said, people disguising themselves should be aware that while in disguise if you start SPEAKING that is enough to give you away, so if you're speaking, even while trying to disguise your voice it CAN give you away. You'd better be good at either performing or lying if you're trying to disguise your voice. If you're in disguise, the only way to be sure people don't know it's you is to keep your mouth shut and your face hidden.

Just my two cents.

[falcus]

Just to pile on.. A lot of people's deep dark secrets are pretty obvious, and a lot of storylines people go down are straight from classic fantasy, or even sometimes from popular movies, books etc. As someone in their thirties who's consumed a TON of fantasy and sci-fi I can see a lot of RP storylines coming a mile away. Of course I try and act surprised, and I almost always go out of my way to play dumb when I can tell what someone is up to, but honestly, a lot of so-called metagamed RP is simply broadcast by the character himself by doing the obvious.

Just a suggestion to those playing shady types with big secrets; perhaps you should also consider throwing some curve balls into your story and not go down familiar territory if you don't want to be metagamed. It's also a hell of a lot easier to prove you were metagamed if your situation is unique and full of unexpected details instead of something you could find on tvtropes.com.

This isn't mean to cover all metagaming of course, but it is a pretty common occurrence.

[sky]

did I mention anything about not getting information the legitimate way? No.

Did I mention any one in particular or give even the faintest notion that this was directed at any one person or group of persons? No.

As far as I'm concerned, I started this because metagaming is all too prevalent on the server, DMs I'm sure can back me up on that, and that if you have any feelings against my thread about my simple statement, then you yourself support the act. This is my personal opinion and should be treated as such.

And if you haven't yet, take a moment to read my signature. They are wise words from a wise man.

[FORSETIS]

Sept 14, 2012 14:00:16 GMT -5 falcus said:

Just to pile on.. A lot of people's deep dark secrets are pretty obvious, and a lot of storylines people go down are straight from classic fantasy, or even sometimes from popular movies, books etc. As someone in their thirties who's consumed a TON of fantasy and sci-fi I can see a lot of RP storylines coming a mile away. Of course I try and act surprised, and I almost always go out of my way to play dumb when I can tell what someone is up to, but honestly, a lot of so-called metagamed RP is simply broadcast by the character himself by doing the obvious.

Just a suggestion to those playing shady types with big secrets; perhaps you should also consider throwing some curve balls into your story and not go down familiar territory if you don't want to be metagamed. It's also a hell of a lot easier to prove you were metagamed if your situation is unique and full of unexpected details instead of something you could find on tvtropes.com.

This isn't mean to cover all metagaming of course, but it is a pretty common occurrence.

I bet alot of people think they know about my main. And they may know a little. But they dont know as much as they think they do.

[Rane]

I agree with forsetis, they dont, and of they say they do for a fact. Its metagaming. In fact ive been severely metagamed on this server already but i had to suck it up and allow the information to continue. This server as the op states is alot worse in metagaming than it onve was. AND PLEASE REMEMBER NEWBIES AND OLD PLAYERS IF YOUR KILLED IN PVP THERE IS A 30 minute rule!!!

[kalbaern]

Sept 14, 2012 17:15:09 GMT -5 Rane said:

I agree with forsetis, they dont, and of they say they do for a fact. Its metagaming. In fact ive been severely metagamed on this server already but i had to suck it up and allow the information to continue. This server as the op states is alot worse in metagaming than it onve was. AND PLEASE REMEMBER NEWBIES AND OLD PLAYERS IF YOUR KILLED IN PVP THERE IS A 30 minute rule!!!

If someone has proof they've been metagamed, trust me, take it to the DM Team. You however also have to trust their decision and fact finding. DMs will hear all sides of a story, not just one, before they make a ruling. Sometimes, they will rule unfavorably. Often, despite players being able to admit or even concieve of how they have been "outed" for something, they have.

FLASHBACK TIME ...

A few years ago, my main PC, being the "sneak" that he often is, was hanging out in Suzail. Another PC had offered him a bounty for ... well ... let's just say it involved being sneaky and arranging a meeting ... *coughs* ... dead or alive.

My "target" was seen in the streets of Suzail with a group of other folk and had mentioned needing to pick up some "fire arrows". Knowing "who" sold fire arrows in Suzail, I proceeded towards that establishment and waited in stealth.

Whilst waiting, another PC wandered onto the same map, them walked over and waited, almost on top of me. A minute later, another joined him and a minute after that ... a third joined. These "three" then started discussing how they were going to kill someone else soon. The "someone else" they referred to just happened to be a ... well .. someone I deemed worth intervening on behalf of.

After discussing their plot and planning in detail for a short while, they finally split up and went in separate directions. I mulled the conversation I'd just overheard. I even considered that one or more of them may have seen me and the whole thing was a ruse to see if I'd take the bait. So I continued "hiding" where I had been ... and carried out my "mission" not long after.

The next day, I noticed that one of the "three idioteers", as I'll now refer to them, made a post on the Forums about how their character had been in an altercation with another and would now soon pay. That afternoon, I spotted this PC again in Dhedluk. Stealthilly, I followed him from town .. and thankfully it was south (I would normally avoid PvP in a map with hostile encounters is all). This PC wandered off the road to gather some wood. Upon finding wood, they proceeded to a small narrow blind (a dead end with cliffs on three sides) to rest. As they rested, my PC set several traps along their exit route and waited.

In just a few minutes, the traps were sprung, the PC imobilised and a few well placed fire arrows ended the encounter. AS the PC lay there dead, I emoted casually penning a letter and laying it on his chest. It read "1 down, 2 to go ... think better on your next target".

Of course, the player of the PC I killed bitched to high heaven. "No one could know what we planned unless they metagamed"! Even after I sent my logs to a DM .. these three continued to cry foul and just insisted the DM was in collusion with me.

Two days later, when my PC spotted another of them and *coughs* uhm ... helped them rid themselves of excess XP ... ... this trio of players left and so far as I know, have yet to return to FRC. Until they end, they refused to believe, despite my having PROOF, that it was anything but metagaming and DM favoritism.

If I post screenies of one of my PCs eating dwarven babies, then post a story on where he found these dwarven babies and insert 13 recipes to cook them, then a day later, when some angry dwarf kills me, yes .. it could be metagaming. It could just as easilly be a case of my cover having been blown ICly too. Maybe I'd bragged to someone and didn't realise some dammedable sneaky elf or hin was within earshot as I have a spot so low I fail to notice if my boots are unlaced. Maybe I told a friend of my "secret" and even though they swore an oath to never share it, they did ... and did so while this now pissed off dwarf was present. *shrugs* I dunno. Maybe, maybe not. If I've doubts, I'll ask a DM to intervene and accept whatever they decree.

As for "sources", all of my own PCs follow a rule. When something is learned, it gets a rating. "Observed" or "Rumor". I use my IG Journal to make quick notes whenever I learn something new about another character.

If my note is based on direct interactions or observations, I prefix it with (O)

Example: (O) Saw Sharita kick a puppy today, perhaps she isn't really a paladin after all.

If its something told to me by others then I use this (R).

Example: (R) I overheard Henry and Gnibbles the Gnome talking about how much Sharita hates puppies today.

Now, when metagaming can be proven, I think the punishments should be fairly severe. I do know of a few isolated cases where out of anger, spite, poor sportmanship or just plain "asshattery", someone has used purely OOC knowledge to "out" someone. These are however rare cases, despite what some or even many may believe. When no doubt remains, I would hope DMs treat those guilty as they would a griefer of rampant exploiter.

[McGuffin]

ON disquises. One time Entori was at the bar in disquise and I had my main walk up and sit next to him. My Pc says. "Hey Entori how's it going? I didn't even realize that the had completely changed his entire appearance IG with a spell or illusion. I mean the PC model looked NOTHING LIKE him. He wasn't even elven any more. He was human. He said... IC in a whispers... and I will never forget it..."How doeth thou knowest me? "
It wasn't until then I even thought about the disquse... I zoomed the window in and looked. I felt like pulling the shoe out of my mouth but it was in there firm.

I had to just OOC emote..

OOC: My PC does not know who this is. He has no way of detecting the diquise the player just goofed please ignore my previous statement.

Meh, it happens. Try to avoid it. Do what you can to correct it when it does. You can play against someone and no purposely try and ruin their fun.


Meta-gamming is difficult to master and avoid. I once completely meta-gammed an entire situation only to learn later that the hard evidence that I was using was in fact meta-gammed by the person who told me. I was guilt by proxy.

Good PC's often get frustrated with things like Vera saying. I won't use your slander and hearsay to base my decisions on. This is one way we DM keep the NPC's from being influenced by Meta-gamming. In a perfect world when the NPC's hear an evil PC is evil they react accordingly. This is not a perfect world and the NPC often play tone deaf to allegations of this nature to protect the Innocent and combat the meta-gamming of evil.

Now, if your character eye-witnesses a non disguised person doing something wrong and you can provide me even a little bit of proof of that say your logs. Then we will take action.

Just think since you can just hit tab and know for sure the identity of the bad guys. How then are the bad guys every supposed to get away with doing anything bad?

Now this goes both ways. You know how many times the Harpers PC's here don't take action because said action would once and for all out them as a Harper PC?

No matter how hard you try you can't put the fact that your PC is a Harper back in the bottle. One single action by them can ruin that character for the rest of its existence because not a single bad guy will continue to be a bad guy with known Harper in the room or party.

I have learned to just not care myself. I have played Harpers and I have played for team evil. (Not at the same time.) I have learned that it is less about what they do with the metagammed information than it is what I do about it.

Remember keep it IC and respect and enjoy your Nemeses. I was having a ball playing here until the day that team evil went dormant and quit doing anything evil. I learned at that point how much I needed the bad guys to be bad guys. I wanted them to be evil. So I rolled up a PC for team evil and wore the other guys shoes for a while. You would surprised how quickly this puts thin in perspective.

[simon1981]

+1 to Kalbaern's and DM McGuffin's posts.

[ladyphoenix]

There are certain characters who have behaved in such a way that they are immediate first suspects in certain situations. In fact so much so that someone outside their group could probably do a lot and it might be blamed on them.

It is the reality of fame as the big evils.

I will say for a fact that what my player knows and what my pc knows are two different things and in fact she is spreading false information based on a wrong conclusion caused by names she has heard. She doesn't know it is wrong information so no one that hears will know it is wrong information. She is also speaking some right information with caveat that it is her suspicion but has no proof. It is the way things go.

Assuming someone is metagaming and acting that way is metagaming and wrong and it causes false accusations and lost playing time and inconvience to players because you assumed wrongly.

[blackarrow]

Sept 16, 2012 10:55:09 GMT -5 ladyphoenix said:

There are certain characters who have behaved in such a way that they are immediate first suspects in certain situations. In fact so much so that someone outside their group could probably do a lot and it might be blamed on them.

It is the reality of fame as the big evils.

I will say for a fact that what my player knows and what my pc knows are two different things and in fact she is spreading false information based on a wrong conclusion caused by names she has heard. She doesn't know it is wrong information so no one that hears will know it is wrong information. She is also speaking some right information with caveat that it is her suspicion but has no proof. It is the way things go.

Assuming someone is metagaming and acting that way is metagaming and wrong and it causes false accusations and lost playing time and inconvience to players because you assumed wrongly.

Agreed. Really, if you want to stop getting blamed for stuff, maybe stop acting creepy, threatening people as a matter of habit, and wearing dark nasty clothes with spikes and glowing eyed helmets.

Really.

Be subtle. It's not always metagaming.

[quelunia]

Some evils dont wear dark creepy glowing eyed helms and still get blamed for things, or are assumed to be because someone takes a story from the forums to the game and runs with it. That is metagaming. I know that my character that plays a evi at the moment, has been laid out strictly from my writing something on the forum before anyone even knew who he was. He was labeled an evil. I ran into many problems, luckily a few either didnt read or didnt meta game and played it out. But still a great many did once I posted my character background, just like the good guys... I logged in to be secluded by almost all.


The next claim is going to be"if you run with dogs your going to get flees" . Well, I have seen alot of paladins near evils... so if its guilt by association.. Why arent the paladins shunned? This is assumption and running with the forum information.Hence it is metagaming. There are cliques... as in any society, they are here as well in a online society. They seclude based on preference, others are loners trying to get into a clique... ans some are players that had to take an extended break and are trying to fit back into the structure.

[soulfien]

This thread reminds me of when the Cyrics were destroying temples left and right. They carved Cyric's symbol into the the dead priests/priestesses and left banners behind while making claims about false gods and their temples being cleansed.

The leader of the Cyric group was well known, in public, and always hung out openly in large groups of adventurers yet it was considered metagaming to go after him because there was no proof that he or his church were responsible.

I eventually lost interest and ignored the whole thing.

When evil people claim metagame, it's a wonderful way to get people to completely lose interest in their entire plot. If evil people don't want their plots to be completely ignored, then toning down the defensiveness may not be a bad idea.

Keep in mind that there are no detectives in this fantasy setting. They don't need a team of specialists and there is no such thing as a "tampering of evidence" defense. Also, circumstantial evidence is not a problem when determining someone's guilt. And this is without the school of divination.

[blackarrow]

Sept 16, 2012 19:06:11 GMT -5 quelunia said:

Some evils dont wear dark creepy glowing eyed helms and still get blamed for things, or are assumed to be because someone takes a story from the forums to the game and runs with it. That is metagaming. I know that my character that plays a evi at the moment, has been laid out strictly from my writing something on the forum before anyone even knew who he was. He was labeled an evil. I ran into many problems, luckily a few either didnt read or didnt meta game and played it out. But still a great many did once I posted my character background, just like the good guys... I logged in to be secluded by almost all.


The next claim is going to be"if you run with dogs your going to get flees" . Well, I have seen alot of paladins near evils... so if its guilt by association.. Why arent the paladins shunned? This is assumption and running with the forum information.Hence it is metagaming. There are cliques... as in any society, they are here as well in a online society. They seclude based on preference, others are loners trying to get into a clique... ans some are players that had to take an extended break and are trying to fit back into the structure.

1. If you post a gloating story in the forums about your character's evil acts, and then claim metagaming later when your character gets exposed, blaming the post that you made, then it seems to me you were metagaming yourself by putting that out there so you could claim it as a defensive thing.

2. If your character hangs around with known evil people all the time, my character is going to assume you're a jerk, at the very least, and probably evil yourself, since you obviously dont' care about what they do. As for paladins, who might sometimes associate with bad people, it's probably not an everyday thing, and generally it's pretty easy to see if a paladin is usually doing paladin-type things.

[blackarrow]

Sept 16, 2012 19:36:49 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

When evil people claim metagame, it's a wonderful way to get people to completely lose interest in their entire plot. If evil people don't want their plots to be completely ignored, then toning down the defensiveness may not be a bad idea.

This. I already generally try to avoid known evil PCs, and avoid having anything to do with their plots, for this very reason. I don't need the headaches.

[Razgriz]

Remember that most of the time paladins traveling with those "known evils" are really striving to not to meta. Or they don't even know OC that the other pc is evil.

[Aodhan the Unusual]

Sept 16, 2012 20:46:34 GMT -5 blackarrow said:

Sept 16, 2012 19:36:49 GMT -5 @soulfien said:

When evil people claim metagame, it's a wonderful way to get people to completely lose interest in their entire plot. If evil people don't want their plots to be completely ignored, then toning down the defensiveness may not be a bad idea.

This. I already generally try to avoid known evil PCs, and avoid having anything to do with their plots, for this very reason. I don't need the headaches.

The same can be said about those who play good/neutral aligned PCs. If everyone avoids everyone else because of the fear of asshattery then what's the point in joining an RP server? *shrugs* Just sayin'.

That aside, what it all really boils down to is common sense and respect for your fellow players. It doesn't matter what you play, but show a bit of good sportsmanship. Before you out someone for something that was posted on the forums, take a minute to ask them about it. Or have a DM check for you. Not everything posted in the Adventure Registry is current happenings or done with public repercussions. Same thing for Letters to NPCs. Unless you personally intercepted that letter (or were told about it) your character knows nothing of it. Things posted in the Cormyr or Thayan Enclave board can be considered completely IN CHARACTER and as such treated as actual information. However, it is still always a good idea (and considerate) to ask either the player or DM on how much "public detail" is available.

On the flip side, if you're planning on something totally awesome, cool, maybe even totally evil, DON'T go posting it in a character journal on same said boards. Use a little common sense here. There are some things I would LOVE to post from Torian's perspective, but I haven't (and now have forgotten most of the details anyway) because doing so would have outted some people, changed some people's perspectives, and blown apart the dedicated RP of others. Even though the stuff she did was awesome and I would totally love to share, I don't. The reason being is because many times it can be hard to separate what is in character vs. out of character based off of what was read. Memory is a funny thing and fuzzes things some times. Always err on the side of caution and DON'T post about that super awesome heist or the surprise party your character is planning.

Also remember any information given in private tells about the super awesome cool thing you're doing can be taken in play. As stated, memory can be a funny thing and it can be hard to remember if someone told you something IC or OOC should the topic come up. If you absolutely must share (as some stuff is too awesome to keep to yourself), share in your guild forums or with a DM.

Always err on the side of caution. Be courteous, kind, and respectful of each other. Don't always assume everything you read is true, accurate, or "public" knowledge. And as always ASK! No one's going to get upset if you ask first (and if they do, send them my way) before reacting. The only stupid question is one never asked.

[arisnorman1]

this is the way i look at it. Goodies and evils metagame it's sad but true. What i do is roll with the punches. If Aris was metagamed for millionth time i would roll with it. if you have proof it's metagamed take it to the dms other wise what i do is roll with it and when a topic is brought up i always say IC. Where is the proof?

[Charon's Claw]

Simple tells can solve lots instead of venom filled posts on the forums. Just endeavor to be friendly with others instead of assuming the worst. For goodness sake, we're all on the same server, just take a minute to talk in a CIVILIZED tone, and you'd be surprised how often things work themselves out.

[DM Smass (Retired)]

I am going to back up CC here. There is no "Team Good" or "Team Evil", there is only "Team FRC." Its human nature to make assumptions, but the old saying is often true: "When you assume you make an ass out of u and me."

[Deleted]

I've been accused of metagaming when I actually had no *OOC*[/b] way of knowing. No tells commentary to ignore, no journal reading to ignore (I don't even read journals, partly for this reason), not even after finding out IC, and how and where I got the information IC'ly was clearly noted in my in-game journal.

But that aside, as for guilt by association, I play a rather intensely good aligned character who goes so far as to occasionally try to redeem an evilly aligned character. I went through a huge bit of IC grief (it was purely IC, no one gave me a hard time ooc'ly) over Erynne's association with Salina before the big crash, because she was known to be evil, and Erynne spent a lot of time with her. So yes, if people see you hanging around with evil characters, they will assume you are evil, too, or at least falling. Maybe paladins get a free pass because people know them as paladins or something, but for the rest of us, guilt by association applies, and the test is in the fact that it gets applied wrongly sometimes to good-aligned characters who have good-aligned reasons to associate with people they know are evil. In Erynne's case, there were quite a number of characters who still insisted she was on the wrong path even after she explained things to them. (And the black color of her armor at the time probably didn't help.

Actually, I *know* the black color of her armor didn't help, because when she first colored it black, a number of characters expressed IC concern that she might be turning evil.

I hope GHTDR won't mind my saying this, but if you hang around with Aris specifically? Guys, I'm sorry, but that's one character who has gone well past the "red flag" stage and has now become a glowing, blinking, pink and purple, arrow-shaped neon sign, complete with bells and buzzers.