Dump Stats and Roleplaying

[DM Smass (Retired)]

This thread is meant to be a constructive criticism and hopefully is taken as such.

Since the return of FRC, I and several other DMs, have noticed a trend toward characters with low roleplaying ability scores. I am speaking of the WICH abilities (Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma). These abilities are relatively unimportant for non-caster classes and as a result many players dump these ability scores to sub 10 levels in order to pump up other more combat oriented abilities. This practice is often referred to as min-maxing in the world of action servers and such.

FRC is a roleplaying PW. As such we expect that characters roleplay their abilities. It is perfectly fine to have a flawed character. Some of the best characters on our server have one or even two abilities below 10. A half orc is supposed to be ugly and dumb by and large, and dwarves are not usually the best with social graces. However, the trend we are seeing is for low WICH characters to completely ignore their dump stats in their roleplaying. This is not a good trend and the DM team will be holding players to a higher standard from this point forward.

If you play a character with a WICH dump stat, take a moment to decide how you will roleplay it. A half orc with a 6 intelligence cannot read or write, and probably speaks in garbled common. He is not a loremaster and is not an articulate practitioner of the king's English. If your dwarf has a 6 charisma, feel free to insult some folks now and again. At the very least, let out some gas when your party is holed up in that small dungeon room with the closed door.

Flawed characters can be fun, so have fun with it. However, do not ignore your character's flaws. If you choose to play a dumb, unwise, or socially inept character so be it, but make sure you roleplay your stats. The DM team will be watching, and rewarding those who do a good job.

I am leaving this thread open for now in case anyone else wants to add their tips on roleplaying low stats. I have my lock wand at the ready though, so tread lightly.

[righttorule]

Will this policing be looking at all STAT scores? Or just the ones below eight?

[EDM Neo]

Jun 25, 2012 13:43:24 GMT -5 @righttorule said:

Will this policing be looking at all STAT scores? Or just the ones below eight?

It's a given that you should be trying to roleplay your ability scores, whatever they are; to do otherwise is pretty blatant metagaming. A character with 18 intelligence and wisdom should usually not be portrayed a dimwit, and one with 8 (or even 10) intelligence and wisdom should usually not be portrayed as a genius; etc, etc. Of course, there's rather more wiggle room in the 8-12 range than when you get much lower or higher, because it's still well within human average, but it should never just be ignored regardless.

[DM Smass (Retired)]

Jun 25, 2012 13:43:24 GMT -5 @righttorule said:

Will this policing be looking at all STAT scores? Or just the ones below eight?

I am not a big fan of the word "policing" in the context of my job as a DM. What I was trying to do with my post is highlight what expectations we have on FRC as a true roleplaying server. I would really prefer to reward players for good roleplaying.

That being said, the team makes every effort to reward good roleplay in general and does not single out low, high, or middle of the road stats. However, when we observe blantant disregard for roleplaying low ability scores, we will help correct the behavior.

[holyredeemer]

It definitely gives more life to the world when people RP their stats (especially the low ones). The ways to RP low CHA are myriad as are the ways to RP low WIS and INT.

I always liked it how one player that got zapped by an undead blast that lowered his WIS to 3 would immediately go run off and charge every creature in sight to the detriment of his health and the group he was with.

I do see a few people RPing low STR and CON and just a few that I've ever seen RP low DEX.

[mastersenge]

Alino always had trouble walking through a forest without tripping over stumps from his low dex. I think one of his issues with the elves was dex envy. Low stats can be fun to play.

[Thrym]

RPing low mental stats can be quite fun, really, and not every low mental stat must be played out the same. For example, I had two long played characters on FRC with 8 wisdom, and RPed it out quite differently:

- Zaebros: A mentally scarred, dorky-appearing wizard who took nearly everything literally for a moment untill he went 'Oh!', realizing what people actually wanted from him. He was also incredibly prone to loosing track of a conversation and end up talking in excruciating detail about something only barely related. Oh, and he had a phobia of something ah... very common. He also eventually got rather frustrated with his own folly and bought a +2 wisdom necklace as well as constantly keeping himself under owl's wisdom... to the point where his traits actually got worse then before when he was not on 'medication'.

- Alhandra: Was probably less dumb then Zaebros, all in all. Zaebros probably ended up feeling more like he had 6 base wisdom or less, really. Alhandra's low wisdom manifested in an inability to let matters drop. If she was insulted, the other party better appologized or she'd punch them. If she felt someone wasn't telling her everything, she would, often against her better judgement, bug them untill they spat it out, then frequently be insulted about the very thing over people didn't want to tell her out of politeness. When faced with any obstacle, be it physical, mental or social, her solution was simply to apply good ol' bruteforce. ;D

Those chars both had 8 wisdom, in their own way. They had literally nothing in common. Having 8 wisdom also didn't mean they were necessarily bad at all wisdom-based things. For example, Zaebros was good at telling how people felt, and Alhandra wasn't actually dim-witted, but simply easily aggravated to the point where she ignored her common sense.

Basically, a low mental stat can be an obstacle... or an opportunity. And in best case, both!

[righttorule]

Let me rephrase...

A character has 10 charisma. Yet they RP that the character is incredibly beautiful, really when spoken and so on. Would this be considered bad form? I personally think it is. But, that is my opinion, hence why I am looking for clarification

[Lady Frost]

Jun 25, 2012 18:20:45 GMT -5 @righttorule said:

Let me rephrase...

A character has 10 charisma. Yet they RP that the character is incredibly beautiful, really when spoken and so on. Would this be considered bad form? I personally think it is. But, that is my opinion, hence why I am looking for clarification

A lot of it comes down to opinion and there can't be final concise clarification. There is a lot of grey area that can't be made more specific and, I think, as long as you stay out the 'black areas' people won't usually have an issue.

My personal opinion is at 10 of an ability you are average. If you are great at one part of that ability then you need to lack a little bit at another part of that ability to stay "average". If you want to be great at all parts of that ability then you should up it.

[Pedantry INC]

A system used in second ed allowed you to break down your stats;

Any stat could be split into two factors, these factors could be left even, or shifted, one down, one up, to a maximum of two up, and two down.

IE: Charisma broke into appearance and leadership.

If you had 10 charisma you could consider if your character was all around even in his appearance and leadership skills, or if he was better at say, telling people what to do, but say, had an ugly scar and ratty hair, you could make him have 10 CHA (9apperance, 11 leadership). If he a more commanding presence, and say, had scraggle teeth and warts on his hands, he could have 10 CHA (8 appearance, 12 leadership)

Alternatively, if he was prone to following and not much of a decision maker, but had stunning blue eyes and a winning smile he could have 10 CHA (12 Appearance, 8 leadership).

Every stat was capable of breaking down that way.

I break down most of my character mental stats that way and apply them, it gives me more variables for their personality and actions in play. Sometimes the physical ones as well.

[tarus]

I'm iffy on this low wisdom thing mentioned in this thread and I've seen it done many times and it makes me cringe...

low wisdom does not make someone bloodthirsty. A high wisdom person can want to kill everyone and we've had soooo many bloodthirsty Cyric priests to prove that.

Being low wisdom won't make you attack all of your party members in an attempt to kill them. That makes it sound like being evil is a low wisdom thing when it isn't. You can have a low wisdom and still tell friend from foe. In fact, there really isn't any way to define what wisdom really is.... The way it is defined, you can survive better with a low wisdom than you can with a low intelligence.

[raconteurt]

I think one good way to do low wisdom is to have no sense of risk vs reward. I think that's more of what the above poster was getting at-- it's not attacking your party or being evil, it's taking foolish chances and putting yourselves and others at risk.

Just think of the typical teenager, that's the definition of low wisdom really-- they make bad choices, they'd rather play than work, they don't plan for the future well, they fall for peer pressure quite easily, they have a false sense of invulnerability and immortality, etc. (Obviously there's a lot of teens who don't fit this characterization but I'm speaking in generalities here)

In my opinion high charisma is the toughest stat in the game to play, especially if you aren't naturally charismatic yourself. You can fake high intelligence by knowing your lore or acting superior, you can fake high wisdom by being calm and meditative and maybe saying simple and obvious things that sound profound, but if you don't have the ability to make people like you and remember you at first meeting, to be a natural leader, to draw a crowd when you speak, etc. there's really no faking it. I almost always play low to average charisma characters simply because I don't have a lot of ability to get my characters noticed or make them the center of attention.

[antimatter]

Remember wisdom is tied to will saves for a reason. In my mind it demonstrates restraint, self control, insight, and attentiveness. Low wis people may be spacy, reckless, overlook the obvious, and fail to realize a terrible idea...

A high int character might come up with a great plan to defeat a young adult dragon with no risk and carry the day. And if they have high wisdom, too, they might realize that signs are pointing to -two- dragons living here, so killing the one doesn't exactly leave them safe, and maybe making a draconic enemy is a bad idea.

Charisma I basically divide into presence and appearance. My dwarf with 6 charisma wasn't particularly ugly, but social niceties? Heh, no. You want him to look at you while you're speaking with him? Too bad, he's reading, and the book is more interesting than your face. You're a king? That doesn't sound like it's a book. Go away.

[moonelf]

I would like to see more suggestions on a CHA of 8 if possible please. Cha has always been a tough one for me to rp.

I do not make a good natural leader IRL, so i think i can manage being a follower of a group pretty easy. Though she still has input and suggestions on how to handle particular circumstance.

I do not rp her being pretty. I try my best to make small snide comments now and again as if she don't know how to be polite, or maybe don't care.

Example: If someone annoyed her about how they laid their traps, she wouldnt explain how they could maybe do it better, but instead tell them thats a crappy set up. Or maybe "tell" them to stop being stupid and move the traps over here instead.

But again, i would really like more input on 8 CHA if at all possible.

[828stingstingneo]

I don't think low CHA necessarily means you have to be mean or rude. Having CHA improves your intimidate, so I feel like being overly mean could actually be a high CHA if it is likely to cow others. I like to RP low CHA as being a quiet follower. It's kind of hard to do in an RP server, though, because those characters have a hard time making friends and getting into parties because they just don't put themselves forward. It could also mean being a total kiss-up or being subservient. CHA also influences bluff, so perhaps a low CHA means you are unconvincing or at least incapable of deceit.

I consider myself pretty good at RPing low stats. For me it's harder to RP high stats because it's tough to make my character outstandingly smart, outgoing, and wise when I'm not outstandingly so myself. The other day when I was on with a low WIS character I read a DM announcement about RPing stat penalties just as my character died, but I must confess it was actually lack of player WIS that made me bite off more than I could chew, not exceptional RP.

[boatmurdered]

I had a CHA 8 dwarf on another server I played as being very quiet and not likely to put himself forward in many ways, like not volunteering to do stuff due to a low self-esteem.

The problem with Charisma is that a lot of it is based on context. There used to be a comeliness stat as well as a charisma stat For example: Why would a paladins outside appearance effect there charisma, which is stated to be the strength of conviction in their faith?

That sorta thing. Charisma isn't necessarily a measure of how good you look. Even my 14 charisma half-orc is still a half-orc, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all.

[EDM Entori]

Jun 25, 2012 12:52:23 GMT -5 DM Smass (Retired) said:

This thread is meant to be a constructive criticism and hopefully is taken as such.

Since the return of FRC, I and several other DMs, have noticed a trend toward characters with low roleplaying ability scores. I am speaking of the WICH abilities (Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma). These abilities are relatively unimportant for non-caster classes and as a result many players dump these ability scores to sub 10 levels in order to pump up other more combat oriented abilities. This practice is often referred to as min-maxing in the world of action servers and such.

FRC is a roleplaying PW. As such we expect that characters roleplay their abilities. It is perfectly fine to have a flawed character. Some of the best characters on our server have one or even two abilities below 10. A half orc is supposed to be ugly and dumb by and large, and dwarves are not usually the best with social graces. However, the trend we are seeing is for low WICH characters to completely ignore their dump stats in their roleplaying. This is not a good trend and the DM team will be holding players to a higher standard from this point forward.

If you play a character with a WICH dump stat, take a moment to decide how you will roleplay it. A half orc with a 6 intelligence cannot read or write, and probably speaks in garbled common. He is not a loremaster and is not an articulate practitioner of the king's English. If your dwarf has a 6 charisma, feel free to insult some folks now and again. At the very least, let out some gas when your party is holed up in that small dungeon room with the closed door.

Flawed characters can be fun, so have fun with it. However, do not ignore your character's flaws. If you choose to play a dumb, unwise, or socially inept character so be it, but make sure you roleplay your stats. The DM team will be watching, and rewarding those who do a good job.

I am leaving this thread open for now in case anyone else wants to add their tips on roleplaying low stats. I have my lock wand at the ready though, so tread lightly.

So in which case would something be called average, versus low. I have a character with an 8 stat. I wouldn't call his other stats as awesome though.

That said if there is a character with 8 in two or more places I begin to question.


Though in being an devils advocate here, what would be the repercussions of not doing so, roleplaying the stats correctly, I know we do change alignments, but to adjust stats would break a persons PC.

I'm a big believer in systems. Life is a chain of systems. Why does someone not turn or do turn on their indicator before turning. etc. If suddenly an mass amount of the server, or rather a 'high percentile'; suddenly begins to use 'dump stats'. Well what has changed if they weren't doing so before. Do we have new players? Do we have older players using new characters that, given the conditions of the server, they want to get ahead quicker? Has the challenge rating changed upon the server as a whole?

I believe Smass, wanted people to be aware that the dms do observe Rp and they do see your character sheet. For those who are new to it, and new to here specifically, that it's not really the norm to 'dump stats'. Whether or not you agree on what low wisdom, or low intel should be. I've often had a hard time with low wisdom myself, especially when faced with a highly intelligent character.

I'm curious though, if this change in character "building" has some parallels in other server changes.

[raconteurt]

Jun 28, 2012 6:08:49 GMT -5 moonelf said:

I would like to see more suggestions on a CHA of 8 if possible please. Cha has always been a tough one for me to rp.

I do not make a good natural leader IRL, so i think i can manage being a follower of a group pretty easy. Though she still has input and suggestions on how to handle particular circumstance.

I do not rp her being pretty. I try my best to make small snide comments now and again as if she don't know how to be polite, or maybe don't care.

Example: If someone annoyed her about how they laid their traps, she wouldnt explain how they could maybe do it better, but instead tell them thats a crappy set up. Or maybe "tell" them to stop being stupid and move the traps over here instead.

But again, i would really like more input on 8 CHA if at all possible.

I'd personally separate it from straight-up physical appearance (though something like grooming, dress or hygiene might factor in.) In a lot of ways appearance is subjective anyway and depends on how you carry yourself, not how you look, unless you're just one of those supernaturally beautiful supermodel types.

Maybe the best advice would be to think of people in real life you know who are outcasts, or annoying, or who have flawed personality, or who just can't fit in for whatever reason. Could be extreme shyness, could be that they're a loudmouth who can't keep a secret and spreads nasty rumors, could be that they insult everyone (be careful with something like that though), could be that they're completely wrapped up in their work and disinterested in anyone else, could be that they're a blowhard who boasts way too much or that they're a really negative Eeyore type who thinks they're never going to win... Etc, etc, there's a million ways to go.

(Just don't be too annoying or irritating on the player level; if you RP annoying personality quirks you also need to develop a sense of when to use them and when to lay off a bit)

I personally like played flawed characters and have never found low charisma to be a challenge at all, if anything, it can be really inspiring for creative RP. I suppose it is often my "dump stat", but even with many of my characters if I had the option to give them a free 18 charisma I wouldn't take it, that's just not who they are or who I find inspiring- I have no idea how to play someone people are naturally drawn to.

[kaltorac]

Jun 28, 2012 12:58:37 GMT -5 boatmurdered said:

I had a CHA 8 dwarf on another server I played as being very quiet and not likely to put himself forward in many ways, like not volunteering to do stuff due to a low self-esteem.

The problem with Charisma is that a lot of it is based on context. There used to be a comeliness stat as well as a charisma stat For example: Why would a paladins outside appearance effect there charisma, which is stated to be the strength of conviction in their faith?

That sorta thing. Charisma isn't necessarily a measure of how good you look. Even my 14 charisma half-orc is still a half-orc, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all.

Here's a link to info on "Comeliness". It was originally proposed by G. Gygax, but never a mandatory rule in D&D. It was first discussed in an early edition of the Dragon Magazine (I'll look for the article oneday) as an option for D&D and later published as "Unearthed Arcana" in AD&D. Keep in mind, back in those "good ole days", Female PCs maxed out at a 17 STR too. Alot has changed since then.

fizzygoo.com/Dnd/Variant/Comelns.html

[holyredeemer]

Is there any reason that a high CHA has to be a positive attribute? I mean CHA encompasses things like physical beauty, force of personality and ability to influence others. But it doesn't have to equal all of those. For some older characters that had a "presence" or force of personality I wonder how many of them had high CHA scores or if just the way they RPed their characters inherently gave them a strong force of personality.

To call out a few that had what I considered having presence even if they didn't have high CHAs:

Milly played by Shirqz (those dead fish eyes, while unattractive would definitely get your attention)

Ranan definitely had presence when sitting at the table in Greatgaunt nee Isinhold

Darkharp could draw a crowd with his stories and songs (he probably had the highest CHA of the three I listed though)

I'm sure others that play more often could come up with other characters that have a forceful personality that would be the indicator of a high CHA.

[elysiumfields]

Jun 28, 2012 13:56:48 GMT -5 @kaltorac said:

Jun 28, 2012 12:58:37 GMT -5 boatmurdered said:

I had a CHA 8 dwarf on another server I played as being very quiet and not likely to put himself forward in many ways, like not volunteering to do stuff due to a low self-esteem.

The problem with Charisma is that a lot of it is based on context. There used to be a comeliness stat as well as a charisma stat For example: Why would a paladins outside appearance effect there charisma, which is stated to be the strength of conviction in their faith?

That sorta thing. Charisma isn't necessarily a measure of how good you look. Even my 14 charisma half-orc is still a half-orc, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder after all.

Here's a link to info on "Comeliness". It was originally proposed by G. Gygax, but never a mandatory rule in D&D. It was first discussed in an early edition of the Dragon Magazine (I'll look for the article oneday) as an option for D&D and later published as "Unearthed Arcana" in AD&D. Keep in mind, back in those "good ole days", Female PCs maxed out at a 17 STR too. Alot has changed since then.

fizzygoo.com/Dnd/Variant/Comelns.html

I gotta tell you... I like this a lot.

[verycoldbeer]

CHR is what we have to go with and I think it can be all sorts of things.. from a pretty girl who is total bish to an ugly person etc. etc.

It's also your score on how likely you are to be a leader.

I've seen some play low CHR as shy and reclusive. You don't have to have a sour face on all the time to play it.

But I think picking something.. anything that is the reason you have a low Charisma would be good. And then RPing that out.

I usually give all my character one phobia mainly because I like to have something to RP that isn't all "how is the weather". No one has to do it, I just find it fun.

as for Min-maxing I've always been against it. Where as in PnP you honestly might just have rolled that 8 and that 18, in NwN you are assigning the numerical value.

I also never go lower then 8, but I can totally see how a half-orc might have a CHR of 6.

I don't think anyone on purpose is trying to be a douche, I think the most loved and adored Smass is just saying play yo stats.

Not the end of the world. And can be fun.. have a girl (because let's face it, I'm a girl irl and I will not play an ugly character me=vain much?) who you give a CHR of 8 to, all it means is that she can be unlikable.. make her socially awkward or burtally honest.. the first thing that rolls through her head comes right out her mouth.

Do whatever makes you happy, come up with you're concept and your build, and then play to your stats.. *shrugs*... I'm sure all of us can come up with ways to play the Low Wisdom or Low Int..

Have your character be illiterate and ashamed of the fact.. whatever it is that floats your boat. And always, repeat always try to play something You are going to have fun with.. not just a great build.

Have Fun
VCB

[Roseanna]

How I've RPd my prior character with a wisdom drain:

She wore flame-resistant armor. She was rather smart and not too impulsive when it came to dungeoning.

When she would get hit with a wisdom-drain spell, she thought she was impervious to fire. She would recommend going to find a red dragon and testing out just how good her armor would hold up to a blast of breath flame. She would tell the wizard in the party to just aim the fireball right on top of her so that it would kill everything around her.

I would play it that her ability to make wise decisions was decreased... or what I like to call "a lack of common sense". Most people would NOT tell a wizard to fireball them. LOL

Let's just say, it always created for some interesting RP.

[boatmurdered]

I'd like to give a specific thought for the 6 charisma half-orc, rather then the generic unwashed misanthrope:

Your whole life, as a half-orc, you've been told your inferior. That you're a monster. How do you think this is going to effect your self-esteem? You may not be ugly, and maybe you are intelligent and keep care of yourself physically, but you've been totally numbed to the idea of being anything other then a brute and a servant on the inside.

Just a thought, since 'smelly and ugly misanthrope" seems to be the only thing I ever see represent charisma 8 and below.

[highknight]

Just a heads up...

I'm also observing alignments (and a I know a bunch of other DM's are too).

This is not a discussion, this is a FYI.

Game on.

[Carpe]

Jun 28, 2012 16:19:34 GMT -5 verycoldbeer said:

But I think picking something.. anything that is the reason you have a low Charisma would be good. And then RPing that out.

This.

It doesn't have to be anything...it just has to be something. We're not trying to tell you how to RP your stats...we're trying to tell you to RP your stats.

Really the only wrong way is to ignore it completely.

[Lokarn]

Jul 1, 2012 9:09:04 GMT -5 @highknight said:

Just a heads up...

I'm also observing alignments (and a I know a bunch of other DM's are too).

This is not a discussion, this is a FYI.

Game on.

Oh dear god HK please please please shift my alignments. I allways start with one alignment, and see if it can be influenced, at all. Sadly in years and years of gaming only a few times have my alignment been changed, you did one of them, but you never paid much attention again to ever change it after.

Alignment is a huge part of this game. Evil who pretend to hard to be good should gain good points. Nutral should have to balance that nutrality to maintain. Good should take a hit if they are allways being greedy and un-willing to help others. etc. Please? Wyn will send you her love if you do....

[Trollfiend]

Another example of a severely low intelligence:

My girlfriend works as a pharmacy tech at a Walgreens. Here in Michigan this past week, it got in the 90's to upper 90's. On one such day, three customers came in throughout the day wanting to return the fans they'd bought the day before- normal, ordinary, every day fans.

Their reason? The fans blew out hot air. I'm not kidding.

These people bought fans thinking they were air conditioners. Not one of them seemed to understand when the manager explained that fans simply move the air around- they don't cool it. Each one received a refund.

I weep for our nation's future.

[abby]

*raise dead*

A pox on you min max haters out there.

My character has 3 minimum scores and id make them lower if I could. Take what you want, but RP what you take I always say!

To me a low wisdom is best represented by a lack of self control and being easily (or impossible) to sway to manipulate.

Wisdom has a lot to do with will power, so a person with low will power might be greedy, try to horde more treasures. They may eat a lot and get fat, they may become alcholics or abuse other substances and in general have bad self-destructive habits.

In my PnP campaign, your Wisdom directly affects your monthly living expenses. Low wisdom PCs require much more coin to survive because they are constantly endulging and having to get more "stuff" to make themselves content. A person with a high wisdom can go without these things and requires very little to live on.

I also use wisdom to determine pain tollerance and concentration. A person with super high wisdom will not break to torture nearly as fast as someone else. They will have more courage... the ability to do that which they don't "want" to do, because they "must" do it. These are all parts of will power, not physical health (constitution).

As you can imagine, people don't often dump-stat wisdom in my table top games.

Intellegence is speed of thought and memory retention and capacity. A person with a low intellgence may have trouble speaking properly, can't read or write, but more than that.. they may not remember your name, and always call you by the wrong name until they've known you a while. They my forget things easily, get lost easily. They have to write things down (if they can) in order to remember instructions or numbers.

Charisma can mean many things. However what it does "not" mean is that if you've got an 8 charisma, you are a gorgeous supermodel but you have a sexy scar on your cheak.

I agree with what someone else said earlier, you can essentiall split Charisma into looks, and personality, and take up to 2 from one to give to the other. So if you've got an 8 charisma, you could RP having a 10 for looks, and a 6 for personality. That is valid.

I try to RP all the factors that go into my charisma. I wrote in my description that Abby is possessed of a rare and delicate natural beauty, but her Charisma is only 15. But I also RP her as being filthy dirty with bad hygene and that she cuts her hair off with a knife in uneven clumps. So im RPing Abby as having a 13 "looks" and a 17 "personality."

If she ever cleaned up, pinned her hair and threw on some decent cloths and makeup, id reverse that so she had a 17 looks and 13 personality as she became a fumbling social idiot trying to adjust to the sudden increase in male attention. She would be completely inept at fitting in with her appearance and would probably constantly keep bringing up her religeon even though its not appropriate.

When it comes to strategy, problem solving and things like that, I consider these to be the unwritten ability score. Cunning. This can only come from the player. Its outside of your scores. Just because you're dumb and lack wisdom, doesn't mean you can't be cunning. Just look at wolves.

[Razgriz]

Jun 26, 2012 4:49:27 GMT -5 Pedantry INC said:

A system used in second ed allowed you to break down your stats;

Any stat could be split into two factors, these factors could be left even, or shifted, one down, one up, to a maximum of two up, and two down.

IE: Charisma broke into appearance and leadership.

If you had 10 charisma you could consider if your character was all around even in his appearance and leadership skills, or if he was better at say, telling people what to do, but say, had an ugly scar and ratty hair, you could make him have 10 CHA (9apperance, 11 leadership). If he a more commanding presence, and say, had scraggle teeth and warts on his hands, he could have 10 CHA (8 appearance, 12 leadership)

Alternatively, if he was prone to following and not much of a decision maker, but had stunning blue eyes and a winning smile he could have 10 CHA (12 Appearance, 8 leadership).

Every stat was capable of breaking down that way.

I break down most of my character mental stats that way and apply them, it gives me more variables for their personality and actions in play. Sometimes the physical ones as well.

*Raises dead*

So then for CHA...

8 Bad looks and poor social graces. Or better than average looks but terrible social graces. I think we have many 12-4s here!
9 Somewhat better than 8.
10 Perfectly average, or maybe better at one or the other.
11 Slightly better than 10.
(+1) 12 Above average.
13 Same, perhaps a small bonus in looks, personality or leadership.
(+2) 14 Overal positive numbers in most CHA related traits. Or a bigger bonus in one.
15 Slightly better than 14.
(+3) 16 Outstanding in most CHA related traits.
17 Slightly better than 16.
(+4) 18 Outstanding in virtually any CHA related traits.
19 Slightly better than 18.
20+ Kiki. (But her hair is still alright)