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Post by duskvermilion on Sept 13, 2005 17:10:06 GMT -5
Now, first off I don't want to sound like a whiner, but this issue kind of irks me...
Twice now, I have logged in to find that apparently the difficulty slider has been set to hardcore (at least thats what I think it is), where potions cure for a random amount, and firing in combat, even with point blank shot, provokes attacks of opportunity.
Now, this is certainly the DM's right to do this. But I would ask for them to at least keep it one way or the other, as I need to know if I should just entirely scrap Mwabe. I made him because he only uses a bow. Had this setting been the original setting in FRC, I would have started over with another character as soon as I found out.
I know it sounds kind of severe to want to scrap a character Ive put so much effort into, but to be honest, its not much fun to suddenly be gimped in combat. I understand if the people running FRC want to make it more realistic. But its a bit too late in the game to adjust him for hand to hand combat.
I would like to appeal to the game masters to not put the slider over to hardcore. I mean, its not like Mwabe is that powerful with his arrows. He certainly cant do the damage that someone with some other kind of two handed weapon can, such as a greataxe or greatsword. I also think the arcane archer prestige class greatly suffers from this setting. I mean, I could arrange it so I can use a weapon in combat, but that just takes the whole fantasy appeal of my character out of it. There are other disadvantages to using a bow as well - you cant have flame weapon, keen, or magic weapon cast on it. But I didnt choose to be an archer to be the 'uber' class. I wanted to do something different. I also, though, like to enjoy playing my characters, and I don't find the sudden change in the way the game is enjoyable.
So, can you just choose one or the other, and stick to it, so I know whether to work on a different character?
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Post by kenny26 on Sept 13, 2005 17:46:32 GMT -5
i can't imagine playing nwn on any other setting than hardcore.
monsters should be making critical hits, fireballs should hurt everyone not just the enemy, there should be a clear distinction between close combat and ranged combat. i haven't really noticed if any of this is true in FRC, but i'd like to voice my opinion that the setting should be harcore. it's closer to dnd, which FRC has so closely replicated.
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Post by thogrimur on Sept 13, 2005 18:09:16 GMT -5
Personally I prefer the hardcore as well, although I was a bit suprised when all of a sudden potions weren't behaving the way they had in the past...luckily we survived that encounter anyway... Regardless of the decision on the settings, I do hope you stick with Mwabe. He is a cool character, that I sadly don't get to travel with as often as I would like. Although this is probably a good thing for you though since trouble is often my closest companion!
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Sept 13, 2005 18:15:13 GMT -5
Ahhh so that is what happened ... i told Vind earlier that my potion of cure serious only gave me 14 hp.
Next thing you know, clerics will be the only ones to be able to use scrolls of raise.
My only problem with setting it to hardcore, is that the community was not informed of this decision, and thus it could not be discussed. Perhaps it was not a decision that was consciously made (perhaps updating to 1.52 made it change to hardcore automatically), but I think a vote would certainly be in order of whether or not this is something the community would like seen done.
Of course, this is none of our module aside from Justi's so he can "do what I want"!
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Sept 13, 2005 18:17:30 GMT -5
This was in no way planned by me... I just leave everything as is when I am on. Anyway, perhaps the DM in question had a good reason for doing it.
How often does it happen, btw? I have never seen it set to hardcore.
Cheers!
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Sept 13, 2005 18:50:50 GMT -5
Can DM's change the difficulty slider? I didnt know. I am with Jargo. I am all for setting it to difficult. Monsters making criticle hits and potions letting you down both take the "predictability" out of combat. This alone is a MAJOR discouragement for farming. It forces PCs to be careful and utilize a well balanced party. However, it also allows for some new types of enemies which could add a lot of color to FRC. Imagine how challenging the Drow weapon masters would be! One note however.. currently the monsters are boosted to super steroid levels to compensate for their inability to deal criticle hits. If the difficulty setting were changed, some of them may have to be toned back a hair. Some of those orcs are already near impossible, give them the ability to deal 80+ damage with a crit and implimenting the chance that your healing potion is only going to give you a couple HP back could certainly make it ugly fast! Having monsters with less HP but the ability to randomly deal brutal damage will give archers and spell casters a bit more use in the group. Though fighters would still be able to deal more damage in close quarters, they would be far more dependent on archers and spell casters to help dispatch their enemies quickly as they will be taking more damage than they are accustomed too. Also, not being able to rely on potions to do sufficent healing will certainly up the need for healers to stay behind and take a more "healer" role than they currently do. In my experiance with running campains, I find that in combat, enemies that hit hard, but dont take too many hits to kill balance combat and give all a more even role in the party. Archers dont deal much damage, but against orcs with 250+ HP, they are nearly useless... as are wizards (except the really high level ones) It is better when a couple well placed arrows or a combat spell can make a differance. A fight that is fast and furious makes every action count. That Melf's Acid Arrow could mean that the fighter isnt going to take another 60 damage from the orc with the great axe. Combat where enemies have endless HP and deal predictable damage means its basically hit for hit with the fighters and the others sit back and buff them. The fights are longer, and the 12 dmg that the wizard (or archer) can deal is pertty much useless.
If it comes to a vote on the difficulty setting, My vote is yes.
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Post by duskvermilion on Sept 13, 2005 19:40:34 GMT -5
This was in no way planned by me... I just leave everything as is when I am on. Anyway, perhaps the DM in question had a good reason for doing it. How often does it happen, btw? I have never seen it set to hardcore. Cheers! Its happened two times. As for voting to set it to hardcore, I have two arguments against it: 1) This is not a PnP DnD game - you fight less monsters in PnP, by changing it to be like PnP, the chance for mishaps like the odd crit by a monster is greatly increased. 2) Again, this is not a PnP DnD game - with a table top game, you usually have a balanced party. I dont know about you guys, but I have a real problem just finding a partner sometimes. I play this game to let off steam, and while I will go out of my way to find people to group with, often this is not something I can arrange when I really need to just play. But, it is up to the GMs what to do. I just know Mwabe has become considerably weaker because of it, and so will any arcane archer.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Sept 13, 2005 19:50:22 GMT -5
Wow, someone against the idea of voting ... that's, that's ... ANTI PATRIOTISM!!! j/k ;D Well we know where your vote would go But think about it, if the dms did what manshin said and gave difficult monsters lower hitpoints to balance, then arcane archers would actually TAKE back some power. Oh and btw dusk, I would be on your side. I wouldnt like the difficulty set to hardcore unless some changes were going to be implemented by the dms, like the ones manshin suggested (which I dont think they'd have time for right now). I think his suggestions are great though. You would no longer see hot heads running straight into battle, and leaving the archers behind defenseless. As my dm pointed out last night in my PnP game. If you have 30 orcs who are all CR .5 and you are a level 8 character, you really dont have anything to fear other than a natural 20 to hit you. However in a RL situation it looks more like 3 football teams charging at you. I think you would run!
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Post by Booze Hound on Sept 13, 2005 20:16:57 GMT -5
hmm...maybe that is why I got the crap knocked out of me right after you left Hroth. anyway, i fthings are done like Manshin suggested, then cool, if not...well cool. ;D
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C'tair
New Member
Today is the first day of the Rest of Your life... Not Much to look forward to, is it?
Posts: 85
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Post by C'tair on Sept 13, 2005 20:52:23 GMT -5
funny, i never noticed that monsters couldn't hit crits. i always thought that it was scripted the way that potions give the max amount of HP.
anyway, i would like to make a few comments to manshins post. i would think that this isn't a way to reduce farming. letting PC's loose more money and die more frequently, will IMO result in the opposite. they will farm more and they will do it in a very tasteless way to reduce the risk. in the end, we will see a great increase of people who complain about 'being a toy for a flight of dragons' when a DM decides to reward them for farming.
as for making the monsters weaker, especially reducing the HP they have. well, archers *are* the weakest fighters here. this implicates, that each and every fighter character, who's not build as an archer, is stronger. something an archer would be effective against, makes normal fighters laugh. i do 1 to 8 points of damage with each hit against something, that isn't my favored enemy. some others make a bad roll when they only hit for 20 points of damage.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Sept 13, 2005 22:06:27 GMT -5
"as for making the monsters weaker, especially reducing the HP they have. well, archers *are* the weakest fighters here. this implicates, that each and every fighter character, who's not build as an archer, is stronger. something an archer would be effective against, makes normal fighters laugh. i do 1 to 8 points of damage with each hit against something, that isn't my favored enemy. some others make a bad roll when they only hit for 20 points of damage."
Think back to when you were first level. Who had the rougher time the archer or the melee guy? The melee guy is the focus of the attacks and takes the hits. With the change in potion healing he will not laugh at what he is fighting as easily as he does now. While the archer will not do any greater damage on either setting, the reduced hit points means the creature dies faster.
Manshin's post actually makes a lot of sense to me. Think about it for a bit.
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Post by soulfien on Sept 13, 2005 22:09:26 GMT -5
I'm confused....
According to this website, Normal setting states that PC's don't take attacks of oppertunity when using ranged weapons. Hardcore has no simple rules.
Now, doesn't this mean that normal setting automatically gives everyone the point blank shot feat while hardcore makes you suffer if you DON'T have it?
Or is the point blank shot feat totally broken?
I've played hardcore on another server- my assassin went up against a group of orcs and one of them scored a crit with a greataxe. Wasted me in one blow!
anyway, the only reason I don't like monster crits is because monsters seem to always roll 20's while I roll 1's.
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Jurivancer
Old School
Retired FRC DM
Thats Right - Your Next
Posts: 386
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Post by Jurivancer on Sept 13, 2005 23:56:48 GMT -5
Its happened two times. As for voting to set it to hardcore, I have two arguments against it: 1) This is not a PnP DnD game - you fight less monsters in PnP, by changing it to be like PnP, the chance for mishaps like the odd crit by a monster is greatly increased. 2) Again, this is not a PnP DnD game - with a table top game, you usually have a balanced party. I dont know about you guys, but I have a real problem just finding a partner sometimes. I play this game to let off steam, and while I will go out of my way to find people to group with, often this is not something I can arrange when I really need to just play. But, it is up to the GMs what to do. I just know Mwabe has become considerably weaker because of it, and so will any arcane archer. From what I have read, most of the posts here have been regarding FRC rules and not to implement things just because we are trying to make it more PnP like. All of our work is to try and make FRC a better for our player base. Whenever a rule discussion comes up, there is invariably a "this is not PnP'. Well, we know this. While we work to make FRC a better and more enjoyable place for our player base, we still try to follow the spirit of D&D as this is FRC Cormyr. We have always stated that we encourage players to join parties while exploring and that FRC rules and combat/xp system is in the interest of parties. While we do not disallow solo players, we do not make rules to aid solo'ers.
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Post by Munroe on Sept 13, 2005 23:56:54 GMT -5
Point-blank Shot feat is not supposed to be a defensive feat. It is an offensive feat. Instead of making your attack at -4 when in melee range, you make it at +1. You incur Attacks of Opportunity with or without the feat, at least by proper rules.
Basically playing on 'normal' is getting in the pool with floaters on. Ranged weapons don't incur AoO, all healing potions heal for max dice instead of the xd6 they should be healing, monsters don't make critical hits. Those are just the ones mentioned in this thread, I can't remember the other rules that get ignored to make it easier for the player. Is PvP full or party-based on Normal? I'm used to playing on the difficulty one above normal. I always just assumed FRC was set to work the same way I was accustomed.
I don't think it's been answered yet, but yes, DMs have the difficulty slider in their main interface at the top of the screen and can adjust it dynamically. A DM may have adjusted it for a specific event he was running without thinking of the impact on players elsewhere.
I would encourage the use of the "hardcore" difficulty because it fosters intelligence rather than brute power. (Not the least of all because a wizard casting Fireball can kill his own fighter tank in Full PVP.) I think I'd need to log-in to play more for my opinion to be valid though.
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Post by soulfien on Sept 14, 2005 0:15:42 GMT -5
Oh okay- just looked up Point Blank Shot after reading that reply. It's not supposed to give immunity to attacks of oppertunity, you're right. Well then it works just fine. Not like anyone has asked, but I feel that monsters should be reduced to their normal state (as per PnP rules- take away goblins' ability to hit +1) and give them crits. I'd rather face a normal monster that occasionally crits than an uber one that always rocks! But... that's just me
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Post by Laurk on Sept 14, 2005 0:42:52 GMT -5
Richard definatly caught what Manshin was talking about. Keeping it in terms of how it was when you were low level puts it in perspective. People who are looking to solo (Which is illegal!) can still do so, there are plenty of creatures who's crit isnt likely to be a lot worse than a normal hit. Kobalds for instance... most of their weapons, even when doubled are only going to make a point or two of differance. However, if its a challenge you are after, try tackling the orcs who have the great axes! Soloing, you are dust. This sort of game style forces players to play like they would if they could feel pain like their characters would be feeling. Every attack comming your way is potentially hazourdous, so you want to reduce those hits to a minimum. Watch as players begin to use bottlnecks rather than charging in! Also, I do believe this would cut down on farming for a good reason. Creatures would more closely match their challenge rating. In order to go farm solo, a player would need to be fighting some pretty weak enemies... not much xp. Even the most devoted farmer will find it difficult to kill the same bad guys over and over for three years it takes to level on 7xp a pop. I doubt those Undead Knights which are worth 50xp will fall so easily when they can put the smack down on you with a few lucky crits.
It is true that such a change would require a lot of work on the behalf of the builders. Monsters would have to be reduced in HP, and most likely, the number of encounters would have to be reduced a bit. As for players who do not want the challenge it would add.. then I can only say, this server is set up to foster party interaction and RP. Rules we set here should be made to guide the server in that direction, not make FRC a powergamers' paradise. Any step we can utilize to keep people from farming and powerleveling brings us closer to our goal. With more DMs around, i think all of you are finding more RP XP. I know I am giving it out like crazyk so if you havent, then you will. We are hoping that RP can replace powergaming here. It would be nice to see a server where the upper level characters represent the best RPers as opposed to the players who can kill the most weak skeletons within a three week long stretch.
As for you archers and wizards... Make sure you read Manshin's post and think about it like Richard said. It will feel good to be useful again dont you think?
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Post by Grozer on Sept 14, 2005 1:46:37 GMT -5
Richard definatly caught what Manshin was talking about. Keeping it in terms of how it was when you were low level puts it in perspective. People who are looking to solo (Which is illegal!) can still do so... When did it become illegal to solo? I realize FRC was built to encourage party play and you may not want to make changes to support solo play, but we also have to be realistic. Let me go on record, I hate to solo, I get so damn bored doing it, but I can't sit around forever and wait for someone to log so I can party up. Most times I log, there are no PCs Ranan would join up with. I dont know, I am probably wrong here, but I see no reason someone should be looked down upon just because they solo. In reality isnt it all about intent? If anything is overdone I am all for stopping the behavior, but just because someone is soloing doesn't mean they are a PG'r or a farmer (yes I have been accused of both, not by you DM Laurk, just making a point here). Also, I do believe this would cut down on farming for a good reason. Well I disagree... a true farmer, is going to find a way to do so no matter what. Or maybe the person is not farming at all maybe the player is just tired of sitting around waiting to find a party for some real fun. Again I am probably really way off base here... As for players who do not want the challenge it would add.. then I can only say, this server is set up to foster party interaction and RP. Rules we set here should be made to guide the server in that direction, not make FRC a powergamers' paradise. Any step we can utilize to keep people from farming and powerleveling brings us closer to our goal. Again I agree and I have no problem with this... in fact its one of the reasons I enjoy FRC. At the same time. I think there has been too quick a jugment made that players are farming. Do you tell players when you think they are farming or PG'ing? I mean maybe that player thinks what they are doing is perfectly acceptable... and in their mind it isn't PG'ing. To be honest, this is only the second sever I have ever played on and I am still hazy on what constitute PG or farming. I hope just because I solo that is not seen as either, as I said there are reasons for it. With more DMs around, i think all of you are finding more RP XP. I know I am giving it out like crazyk so if you havent, then you will. Well being honest and in fear of this coming back against me... I have to say I haven't found much change. I realize I am not a great RP'r and maybe that the reason, not creative enough or not what the DMs expect of my character? Not sure, but then again I never received any feedback either way to know, so... Well there is a lot more I wanted to say but I've rambled enough. I really do appreciate the DM team's efforts, its not an easy job, so I hope this wont be taken as an attack... its not... if it comes off that way, I apologize up front.
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Post by Laurk on Sept 14, 2005 3:12:00 GMT -5
Actually, you are correct, soloing is not illegal, powergaming and farming are. And typically soloing is a pretty good indication of this. If you are board and go find some action, of course Im not talking about you. If every time I log on, you are in the mistwood crypt killing the same bad guy and leveling three times a week, thats differant. Giving baddies crits wont stop farming, I understand this, but it will slow down powerlevelers and make them burn out faster. When they are getting 7xp for killing weak enemies because they can no longer solo the strong ones, they may actually decide to RP for a change or find some buddies. Keep in mind, I am speaking in generalities here. Not anyone speicific. Granted there are no areas for baddies to start out in and hang.. but these are issues that are being addressed and talked about. Also, going soloing will certainly still be possible for people who just want to have fun, just dont expect to loot the entire dungeon and kill baddies by the droves. One will have to be more cautious without a well rounded group. As for the RP XP, all I can say Grozer is hang in there. I gave at least six people RP XP tonight.
As for telling the differance between powergaming and just finding some action... well, I cant speak for others, but I just look for those who are in the same place everytime I log on... by themselves. And also, DMs are extrememly lax on this. Usually you wont get more than a few nasty baddies thrown at you to send you running.... though again, I cant speak for others. So, though I want to discourage people from farming by bolstering other angles of the game, no one is going to be banned for powergaming... I dont think so anyway. We just want to stear FRC towards being an RP server that it is meant to be.
'
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Boogiedk
Old School
A mans home is his castle - But it shouldnt have to be his fortress
Posts: 252
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Post by Boogiedk on Sept 14, 2005 3:39:50 GMT -5
I have to solo , most of the time when I log on (afternoons CET ) There are only 5 or 6 people on . take then into account that 3 of em is below lvl 10 (im lvl 15 ) and 2 of them are evil (im a paladin). It doesnt give much room to play . . . setting the slider to Hardcore is the worst Idea IMHO . . .
So if I solo I go to look for something i can take with relative little risk ( Powergaming , farming etc. Illegal)
And If i go out with the "non 10s" We would go to places where they would be able to survive. ( again that would make me a powergamer/powerleveller cause I would breeze through the enemies with little or no risk)
But If I solo , I use stat potions/scrolls for atleast 500g. and kits healing potions for another 500g. If I bring home 1600g from the place im soloing , how can that be farming?
By killing peoples abillity to solo , you eliminate a third of your player base from actually fighting anything .
And changing the slider without a "heads up" or a vote about it is rather poor form imo. I know this is your world and we are the pawns. But if this was PnP (which you apparently strive for), a DM wishing to radically change the game experience without player input is not a very good one. Remember : The DMs set the stage, but its us as players that make it come alive.
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Post by Psssst on Sept 14, 2005 8:32:05 GMT -5
Well one easy way to lower farming or pging is just to weaken the items. Of course the monsters need to be a little weaker then. We all know the items make (can make)our charas double efficient ( or even better) then they are supposed to be. This doesnt fix the problem of gathering a party still....but would surely scare people of going on a solo trip/farming or what else not ( like my charas some would say:) . On the other side a huge item selection makes the game more fun. Someone was refering to pnp.... well of course i like the items but i cant realy remember having such items ever in any pnp time. Without (strong) items we would come back to use our chara abilitys and skills then the benefits of the items we use... or are used to now. Its my view of going back to the basic idea of rollplaying.
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Post by Grozer on Sept 14, 2005 9:25:30 GMT -5
Thanks I appreciate this dialog... this topic has been in my head some time now and I never brought it up before... Granted there are no areas for baddies to start out in and hang.. but these are issues that are being addressed and talked about. Actually, I am not sure how these are connected since if there is no one on to party with then it doesn't matter if there is "baddies" area. Again, I am also not so sure this the best fit for FRC as I stated in other threads. Also, going soloing will certainly still be possible for people who just want to have fun, just dont expect to loot the entire dungeon and kill baddies by the droves. One will have to be more cautious without a well rounded group. Fair enough, I never expect to go far when solo'ing.. for me its about killing some time until someone comes on that I can party up with. At the same time, I think you have to consider players need to do some amount of looting, solo just to keep up with the economy. Again pointing to my own characters, they are always pretty broke pretty much using all coin to buy healing items. As for the RP XP, all I can say Grozer is hang in there. I only wanted to answer your point, honestly I don't RP for the XP. What is more enjoyable to me is hearing from another player how great a scenario played out. If I didnt want to RP and only solo/farm/PG then I might as well play single player. I mean there is like a thousand or so mods I can download from Bioware. There is a reason we all come here to play. As for telling the differance between powergaming and just finding some action... well, I cant speak for others, but I just look for those who are in the same place everytime I log on... by themselves. And also, DMs are extrememly lax on this. Usually you wont get more than a few nasty baddies thrown at you to send you running... Well my experience has been different, there has never been a chance to run. Not necessarily from you, as I am not sure who did it, but I guess I wish I would have known why this was done to me. It would be great to know if what I was doing was seen as farming, etc rather than just being killed and left wondering. I will say there are exceptions. DM Valk, spawned something impossible on me and could have easily killed me, but didn't and in fact I felt like I was given a choice. Attempt to take it on and die or make a run for it... of course I decided to get away. How did I know it was DM Valk, well we traded a few tells and I felt releived it was more about having some fun then the DM team thinking I was doing something wrong. It was a great experience overall. Anyway... I think I've said enough.. again thanks for the contructive debate.
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Post by Laurk on Sept 14, 2005 11:53:46 GMT -5
Giving monsters their crits isnt going to make it impossible for people to solo. Its just going to help take that safe secure feeling away. Im sorry, but when going into combat.. you shouldnt feel "safe," you should feel like you are in danger. Perhaps we should make a janatorial position open in Isinhold for people who want to feel safe while they find gold. You could sweep the floor for hours and get paid a decent wage. Never once would you have to worry about any unpleasant surprises or unexpected adventures. hehe. *Eherm* But seriously, this topic isn't even so much about reducing farming & powergaming, its about making combat hectic, unpredictable and challenging; and its about adding balance to all the classes, as opposed to the hit for hit between the fighter and the monster, while the fighters "pit crew" sits back and prepares buffs for him. The fact is simple. When a creature has a realistic amount of hp but can deal 40+dmg with a good hit, the fighter is going to need help killing the baddies quick. And that help can be delivered by the archer whose measly 1d8 damage suddenly represents a decent portion of the enemies HP. Whats more.. it gives the rogue class and the assassin class back their function. Sneaking up behind the enemy and slitting their throat. Stealth kills. Wizards will find that Issacs Missle Storm is no longer thier only useful combat spell. Running through a fire wall spell becomes dangerous to enemies rather than simply scourching off a few hairs. Farming and powergaming aside, does changing the difficulty slider and reducing the monster's HP bring balance to the game for all classes? Lastly, someone needs to be an advocate of monster rights on here... and blast it all, that might as well be me! The monsters want their criticle hits! They are going to go on strike soon and withold all loot! Marl, the drow weapon master has been keeping his keen long sword tucked under his bed for long enough.
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Post by kenny26 on Sept 14, 2005 12:58:18 GMT -5
lmao.... ;D thanks, that gave me a good laugh. back on topic, i say i'm all for giving monsters crit hits (as long as their statistics are altered just slightly so they will still have a proper CR after this rather significant combat boost). as a 20th level tank (i never liked that word for a dex based fighter with less than 20 in str... let's call jargo a fighter jet )... as a 20th level melee char, i often felt like i was getting an almost unfair advantage over the other "supporter classes" which they have been branded over time. vind and ravenna have always been good support for a party, but they have only been that, because they could never deal the same amount of damage as me (no offense pals). if monsters were given the ability to do crits, who would be the first one to have a taste? jargo! seriously, jargo always charges ahead and stabs and stabs until everything is dead. if i were to run head first into an orc dealing 90+ damage with his axe, i'd very quickly learn to hang back, and for a change rely on the good archers whose arrows now become vital as the said orc's hp will drain dramatically befor it reaches me, and i will actually have a chance against it, all thanks to the archer classes. the same goes for mages. now that stoneskin spell will be worth alot as those 10 damage reduction could very well be what kept me standing after a crit hit, and the flame weapon spell allows me to take the orcs down quick enough. not to mention the clerics who will adapt the role of healers which they used to be in good ol' dnd. personally, even though it could take alot of work on behalf of the DM and builders, i say this idea is great. soloers: sorry, no sympathy here... but then maybe you'll wanna kick back and rp a little instead of riskin life and limb. i know that's what i began doing when the DMs started sending spawns after the farmers. i mean, err... crud, i think i overspoke...
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Post by Grozer on Sept 14, 2005 15:47:17 GMT -5
The fact is simple. When a creature has a realistic amount of hp but can deal 40+dmg with a good hit, the fighter is going to need help killing the baddies quick. And that help can be delivered by the archer whose measly 1d8 damage suddenly represents a decent portion of the enemies HP. Whats more.. it gives the rogue class and the assassin class back their function. Sneaking up behind the enemy and slitting their throat. Stealth kills. Wizards will find that Issacs Missle Storm is no longer thier only useful combat spell. Running through a fire wall spell becomes dangerous to enemies rather than simply scourching off a few hairs. Farming and powergaming aside, does changing the difficulty slider and reducing the monster's HP bring balance to the game for all classes? I'm all for the changes.... I hate the fact that some of my clerical spells are worthless in a party with a strong tank (Blade Barrier comes to mind). But simple changing the HP is only a start. I believe some monster's would require additional tweaks. Case in point, I was just outside of Suzail (not in King's forest) when a Remnant Orc Champion spawned within a group of the standard Remnant Orcs. At level 17, I could not connect without a 20 and it was rated moderate to me. With a threat range of 15-20, if it had crits for sure I would have been a goner, even with reduced HPs. Luckily I had a trick or two up my sleeve and I was able to stun it long enough to get away. The point being is maybe some monsters were beefed up more than just huge HP to compensate for the difficulty levels.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Sept 14, 2005 16:09:45 GMT -5
Well I think the current CR rating is based off of just Hit Die. So yeah, thats another part of the rework that would make this whole thing d**n near impossible right now.
And farming and powergaming is always going to be a problem. As I think I mentioned in the past, the only way to eliminate these things are to eliminate xp and items, the two things that the players strive for. But then you also eliminate a drive to play the game. *says in his best sabremoe voice* And then you might as well go RP your real life!!!
But that aside, I think what ravenna's point is: if you make xp harder to get, farming increases. You may think that it won't, but that is because you aren't a powergamer/farmer. The mentality works like this: "I only need another 7.5k to make it to next level. If i kill about 100 orcs @ 4xp a piece in the waymoot caves, plus complete the quest which gives about 350 xp, that means I make 750 xp per trip, which means I only need to do 10 trips. At one trip a day, I can do that in 10 days (maybe faster if i have more time)." That mentality does NOT change even if the orcs are 1 xp a piece. But now, players that love RPing see the rest of the community powergaming/farming and are not left with anyone else to RP with, so they have two choices, try to RP with what is left, or join the farmers on their farming trips.
So there really isnt a flip side. You cant just give a player an almost endless supply of xp and expect him to stop farming. Farmers will continue to farm, but those that really enjoy RPing, and wish to level up on the side to show character growth and gain new abilities/classes, can do it with ease.
So I think that was the point that was trying to be made when it was stated that "they will farm more and they will do it in a very tasteless way to reduce the risk".
IMO if these changes were implemented and the difficulty increased, we would just see a reverse of farming. Fighters would be looking for creatures that do very little damage and mages would be looking for creatures that had very little hit points.
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Post by Laurk on Sept 14, 2005 18:48:49 GMT -5
Good points Quad. But... there are a lot more DMs on now, and almost all of us usually have right at the top of our check list "Go drop bomb on farmers, then get down to business." If you are correct, and the farmers start farming ridiculously easy monsters, (Waymoot wont be an option.) then sooner or later they are going to get sick of peering into chests, only to find Ancient Red Dragons hiding within. Keep in mind, if monsters have crits and reduced HP.. it wont neccessarily make it harder for a well balanced party, just for the soloists. The fact is, you are right, there will always be farmers, but we simply cannot build a world around them. It would be like setting out extra inventory at the store to accomodate shop lifters. With that in mind... the point here still remains on making FRC balanced for all the classes. Currently it is not, and this is a good way to fix it.
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Post by thogrimur on Sept 14, 2005 20:35:35 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong, because I reallly like the ideas that are being spun in this thread. But when the average # of players on during the time zone I am usually confined to playing in is only 6-8 players (of varying levels and alignments) the chance of finding that well rounded party is slim to none. On a normal day I get maybe 4-5 hours of play per day. And no, I am not a soloist. If I wanted to play with myself....erm...yah. *clears throat* But...I have found only one cleric to party with (that isn't a known evil, merely a suspected one) over the last month of play and I see her maybe once a week. So before changes are implemented that will require the full party formation I would ask that you make sure that you have enough of a player base - otherwise we might as well ALL get day jobs in Isinhold so that we have something to do while we loiter around waiting for players to log on. I did notice that the lag seems greatly reduced after the new CEP upgrade to 1.52 - it is my belief that the # of players may hopefully soon return to the days where the avg. # of players was closer to 30 and you would sometimes have to sit and wait and watch for an opening to even get a chance to log onto FRC. You old schools know what I am talking about. Once the player base is back --- I would have to say that the ideas being spun here would be sweet. And another idea to foster party formation right from the get-go ---> In Isinhold, perhaps the guards in front of the crypt and in front of the elven ruins could be re-scripted...the gates to these 'quest zones' could be locked, only openable by said guards, who would do a quick check to ensure that the minimum party requirement was met. (say, maybe 3 for a minimum) --> if the party requirement was met, the guard would open the gate for the party and they could undertake the quest. (I even imagine a soloist thief might be able to slip through this crack and tail the party if he/she was bold enough to do so) I dunno, just thinking out loud, and I am at work again (keep swearing I won't post from work as my posts are always rushed...sooo, I am going to go wash my feetjust in case I end up having to chew on them again later)
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Post by Keetena on Sept 14, 2005 22:12:35 GMT -5
Quad, wonderfull mathematics! Exactly like we think lol - just kidding - ok, seriously as many said here not always you see a guy soloing he is powergaming - let me put me for example, one time I said here in past that when I was new in server I powergamed a place, a tomb south of Redmist - I never entered that tomb alone cause was hard in my level but I entered with others many times in one day - in that time many people were saying that we had little areas to medium-low level characters, but the true is simple, we were powergaming. Time makes us learn and I got a far better respect for the server, sometimes I enter here for many days or even weeks just to walk isinhold and rarely enter a dungeon - recently Keetena lost her child when fighting the vampire lord with Gial, she despises undead since there more than before (she ever fought the ugly things of evil - oppositors of her faith by nature) and don't like ask someone to come with she cause she doesn't wanna risk others (these facts and involveds are all described in my collum in 'regal gripphon inn' topic there (dreams and nightmares of a sunite)... but time makes we learn, after run for her life about 3 times from Morg barbarians she accepted her defeat... I roleplayed days of intense depression many times about her impotence against the undeads and her own responsability... so I can't see me a powergame even when I soloed that crypts.
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Post by Keetena on Sept 14, 2005 22:18:43 GMT -5
About the difficult slider I think hardcore is playable enough, just don't set it as a 'inquisition to power-solo-gamers' I do think it should be let clear to all in server name and description 'hardcore' maybe this will atract more players than we imagine, and roleplayers since the description always says in clear 'roleplay'. I hope the roleplay reward shall be granted to all who does well their homeworks.
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Post by Munroe on Sept 14, 2005 22:41:56 GMT -5
About the difficult slider I think hardcore is playable enough, just don't set it as a 'inquisition to power-solo-gamers' I do think it should be let clear to all in server name and description 'hardcore' maybe this will atract more players than we imagine, and roleplayers since the description always says in clear 'roleplay'. I hope the roleplay reward shall be granted to all who does well their homeworks. I don't think putting 'hardcore' in the description is advisable for a slider turned up a notch because HCR (pronounced "hardcore") usually means perma-death, food rations required, resting mat required, etc. (It's a scripting package.) The 'hardcore' difficulty setting is fairly standard for servers from my experience. Saying 'hardcore' to me would be misleading.
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