Tips to Being a Successful powergamer

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

Not that I encourage it, but as I have stated previously, we all have a little powergamer in us. This section is not to increase powergaming, nor encourage it, but there to help answer those hard questions. So, if you have a game mechanics questions (does this stack, how does this skill work, does this armor make me look fat, etc) post em here, and I'll let you know how to use and abuse the system ummm ... I mean understand the intricacies of NWN.

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

I am going to be watching this one closely. I really don't want to see spoilers or true power-gaming tips here, and I really hope the title is as tongue and cheek as it sounds.

Let's keep it pretty pedestrian in this topic, eh?

[soulfien]

I'll start this off.

Let's test Justi's reaction time with his DM kill wand!

How to use items that give bonus spell slots:

Normally a mage wouldn't walk around town charge into battle with his spellbook- even if it does give a bonus spell slot- nor would he always carry his staff when using his crossbow would be more effective (not to mention safer).

So how do you take full advantage of that bonus spell slot you paid a few thousand for? Easy:

You memorize a protection spell there instead of an offensive one. That way when you are done resting, you can flip though your spellbook and cast magic armour before putting it away. you lose nothing since the spell is already used up.

It makes sense from an RP aspect too- A wizard in PnP can easily choose which spell he is going to cast with that extra bit of power at his fingertips.

[kenny26]

dex based characters will in the long run have great ac if you play it right.
how? when your dex becomes very high with magic items increasing it etc, you will beging to exceed your armour's max dex bonus by more and more, and all this is armour class points you can benefit from by wearing enchanted clothes instead of armors.

for an example a +3 chain shirt gives armor bonus 7 (base 4 + 3 enhancement) and has max dex of +4, giving it an effective ac boost of 11 points.
if your dex is 28 (+9 dex) and you wear bracers of armour +3 (no max dex, no base armour value) you end up gaining a complete ac bonus of +12 (higher than you can achieve with most armours).

as you continue to increase your dex, every point will count towards your ac.
sacrificing so many ability boosts to put in dex is alot though, so i'm still not sure if this method is really powergaming or just shooting yourself in the foot.
so far, my char seems strong but not rediculously strong so i'd say neither.

[henny]

Don't forget what wearing non armour haste clothes can do to the dex based character as well.. whew....

[Sarah]

(sara)

hey you missed out walking around with a hard hitting char...you sit back and let them do all the work ;D

________________________

*smiles*

[Booze Hound]

dernit Quad! you have been my personal mechanics guru, and now I gotta share! heh, when I saw the title of this too , I was thinking this was going to get shut down fast, but then I saw you started it, and realized that it was obviously tongue in cheek. anyway, this is a good idea actually, cause if it weren't for a couple pieces of advice about how things stack, etc, I would be using a lot of completely useless gear.

[kenny26]

once again i'll refresh the issues with ac boosting items for everyone in here:

there are four kinds of ac bonus achievable: armor, natural armor, deflection, and dodge.

no matter what, an enhancement bonus will never stack with another of it's type.
the only exception to this is dodge, but this bonus is so rare to achieve that you won't even find two items that offer it and can be equiped at once.

example: i am wearing an amulet of natural armor +2, now the druid casts barkskin on me, giving me +3 natural armor.
in yellow text, i'm informed: you have multiple spells/effects that give a natural ac bonus and they will not stack.
if i check my char sheet i'll find that this is true. my ac was only increased by 1 point.

however, if i'm wearing boots that offer dodge bonus to ac, and the party mage casts mage armor on me, the dodge bonus given by the spell will stack with the boots. this means that anyone can have at least a minimal benefit from having mage armor cast upon themselves.


on a related topic let's talk about ability score boosts.
multiple items that boost the same ability score will stack, however there is a limit.
no ability score can recieve temporary buffs greater than a total of +12. if you're very high level and you have collected the right gear, you can get pretty close to the +12 max, and usually drinking a potion containing the proper spell (bull´s str, cat's grace etc...) can bring you to that +12 bonus.

this is not easily achieved however, and the items that do offer ability boosts can be hard to find and when you find them they're usually expensive.
the only possible complication with this ability boosting is that the same spell, be it in potion or cast by a mage will not stack. however, the dice will be re-rolled for a possible better score if the spell is cast repeatedly.

i hope this is helpful to some of the players here.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

logandoug said:

dernit Quad! you have been my personal mechanics guru, and now I gotta share!

Funny thing is, I started this so people would ask questions, similar to many's questions corner, but Kenny does so enjoy telling everyone everything, I think . But here is something for ya, though i dont know how many people care.

CRITICAL HITS!

Critical hits work like this:
Step 1: Roll within your critical threat range. This is the number(s) designated by the weapon you are using. For example, a longsword has a threat range of 19-20. This means if you roll a 19 or 20 proceed to step 2.

Step 2: Check to see if your threat roll beat the armor class of the monster. If you have a roll of 19 (for your longsword) and you only have an attack bonus of 1, and the monsters ac is 21, then you miss. However, if you roll a 20, it is always a success.

Step 3: Roll again to confirm it is a critical hit. This roll must beat the monsters AC in order to have the critical hit occur. Thus if I roll a 19 and I have 1 attack bonus, and the monsters ac was 21, I would only have a normal hit.

Questions?

[Spooks]

Ummm, so whats so Critical about it?

[Talus]

So, explain how the multiplier works with a Crit. and how that works with a sneak attack please.


oh by the way, just made Old School ;D

[Spooks]

kenny26 said:

once again i'll refresh the issues with ac boosting items for everyone in here:

there are four kinds of ac bonus achievable: armor, natural armor, deflection, and dodge.

no matter what, an enhancement bonus will never stack with another of it's type.
the only exception to this is dodge, but this bonus is so rare to achieve that you won't even find two items that offer it and can be equiped at once.

example: i am wearing an amulet of natural armor +2, now the druid casts barkskin on me, giving me +3 natural armor.
in yellow text, i'm informed: you have multiple spells/effects that give a natural ac bonus and they will not stack.
if i check my char sheet i'll find that this is true. my ac was only increased by 1 point.

however, if i'm wearing boots that offer dodge bonus to ac, and the party mage casts mage armor on me, the dodge bonus given by the spell will stack with the boots. this means that anyone can have at least a minimal benefit from having mage armor cast upon themselves.


on a related topic let's talk about ability score boosts.
multiple items that boost the same ability score will stack, however there is a limit.
no ability score can recieve temporary buffs greater than a total of +12. if you're very high level and you have collected the right gear, you can get pretty close to the +12 max, and usually drinking a potion containing the proper spell (bull´s str, cat's grace etc...) can bring you to that +12 bonus.

this is not easily achieved however, and the items that do offer ability boosts can be hard to find and when you find them they're usually expensive.
the only possible complication with this ability boosting is that the same spell, be it in potion or cast by a mage will not stack. however, the dice will be re-rolled for a possible better score if the spell is cast repeatedly.

i hope this is helpful to some of the players here.

What do you mean by Temporary?

Potions/Spells are, but say I have a total of +10 DEX improving Items, when i drink a potion of Cats grace it'll always do +2 Dex and never anymore? (since +2 is the minimum itll do)

[kenny26]

correct.
and the item boosts are indeed temporary since they only last until you take the items off.

if you have +10 to a special ability score from items, you are indeed one lucky son of a... errr.... you're one lucky guy.

that means you will only have to drink one potion of whatever and automatically max out your ability, making it alot cheaper seeing how you don't have to drink 2 or 3 potions to get the result you need.

and yes i like to answer questions. think of me within game mechanics as what manyasone was to you in the old questions corner.

about critical and sneak attack:

they don't stack. the only things that stack in a critical hit are:
weapon's base damage dice.
your strength bonus to damage.
the sword's enhancement bonus to damage.
extra damage from weapon specialization.
any other bonus to damage that is a set number, not a dice.

sneak attacks, added elemental damage, from spells or from enhancement, none of these should stack, although i haven't checked this with all of them.

[Spooks]

So the sneak attack doesnt multiply.. does it at least do its own #d6? like say Chril Sneak attacks... Gial, and scores a Crit. He does his Multiplier, but does the standard regular 4d6 or whatever still apply? Not multiplied for critical, just standard Sneak attack damage.

[C'tair]

i have a question regarding the dodge bonus to AC,

my NWN manual states that the dodge AC bonus only stacks to a maximum of +5. is this still true or did they remove this restriction later?

[Booze Hound]

and here is one. if a rogue buys a piece of equipment that has the ability:
+1d6 sneak attack

does that add 1d6 sneak attack to his current 1d6 sneak attack? making it...what? 2d12? 1d12?

[Keetena]

About the dodge bonus I wanna know too, cause I never did a character with more than +5 bonus, so I don't know... about +1d6 sneak attack means that you gaion one more 1d6, so, if you are a thief level 9 (+3d6) you will deal 1d6 extra (+4d6), if you have none you'll deal (+1d6) only.

[kenny26]

i'm not sure about the dodge bonus. i read someplace else on the forums that it goes it a maximum of +20, but it could be +5 as well.

regardless, i've never had a char achieve more than a +5 bonus at any one time.
+3 for an item, +1 for mage armor, and +1 for dodge feat. so i don't really know it it is possible to go beyond that. i know it isn't on FRC.

as for sneak attacks and critcals, yes the sneak attack can be counted once, but it doesn't multiply.
my char being dex based can only deal a standard damage of 1d6+10 on normal hits, but with a critical hit (making it 2d6+20) and a sneak attack +3d6 i can easily do more than 40 damage, and with a pretty good threat range this is not a rare occurance.

as for the sneak attack feat from an item i haven't really seen anything on FRC that has such a property, so i haven't been able to test it.
i'll try messing around with it in toolset.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

BTW elemental damage, in PnP rules, should not multiply with a crit.

But NWN does not use PnP rules. SO elemental damage IS multiplied with a critical hit. 1d6 sneak from the armor will stack (though I havent checked this, but i dont see why not). So here is just an example.

I am a level 9 rogue (5d6 of sneak), with a +3 shortsword with 1d6 of ice damage. I am also wearing armor that gives 1d6 extra sneak attack damage. I also have +2 to damage from my strength bonus.

I sneak attack and score a critical hit! So the damage done (since it is a x2 multiplier is):
[1d6(base)+5(str and +3 item)+1d6(frost)]+[1d6(base)+5(str and +3 item)+1d6(frost)]+6d6(sneak) = 10d6+10 damage.

On a different note. The max dodge bonus was changed from the original NWN when Hordes of the Underdark was added. It was increased from 5 to 20. That way, when you became epic, you became REALLY epic!

[Keetena]

Perfect explained quad, just one doubt, the second add you showed was a second attack from same blade or a second blade used with ambidextery, two-weapon-fight, improved two weapon fight feat? Cause if is a dual strike you must remnber the second blade deals only half of your strenght bonus, so should be only +1 of strenght.

[Aodhan the Unusual]

logandoug said:

and here is one. if a rogue buys a piece of equipment that has the ability:
+1d6 sneak attack

does that add 1d6 sneak attack to his current 1d6 sneak attack? making it...what? 2d12? 1d12?

No. It just gives someone who doesn't have Sneak Attack the ability.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

Keetena, the second "attack" was the second roll because of the critical hit. So yes, scoring a critical hit with a weapon that has a x2 multiplier is like getting a "second attack". If you have a x3 multiplier, then it is like getting "three attacks" with one hit!

But you are right, if you are holding an offhand weapon, you only apply half your strength bonus to that weapon.

[Keetena]

Yes, I should read better descriptions, thanks

[kenny26]

ok i made my own module to test the critical hit / sneak attack / bonus damage.

what i found was that the elemental damage does stack (which just makes me wanna go look for a flamebrand rapier or something with added elemental damage).

however, no matter how many critical hit sneak attacks i performed, the sneak attack never doubled.
i made a test char dealing 1d6+2 damage with a rapier that had the bonus feat sneak attack +1d6.

the char already had one level in rogue, and if the sneak attack dice stacked he's be able to deal in excess of 14 damage in normal sneak attacks (1d6+2+2d6 for sneak attack) but it never happened.

bottom line: bonus feats for sneak attack do not stack with your own sneak attack.

sneak attack is only dealt once in critical hits but everything else does multiply.
i hope this clears things out.

[DM Justicar - Creator of FRC]

The best part of this little foray is that now I get to think up new ways to defeat players power-combo's!! ;D

Sweet.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

Well its really easy justi, you just create a level 40 tiefling weapon master than dual wields rapiers, give them immunity to basically everything and then unleash them on the community ... wait that's already been done

Sarcasm aside, I think so far this thread is doing what it was meant to do, and if it helps the dms dfestroy powergaming, heck, I dont care.

[kenny26]

smite us powergamers yee all-mighty DMs! go ahead! i'm not affraid...

*spots his own shadow and whimpers*

no seriously, if this helps you limit the amount of powergaming done on the server, i'm glad.

[Munroe]

spooks said:

So the sneak attack doesnt multiply.. does it at least do its own #d6? like say Chril Sneak attacks... Gial, and scores a Crit. He does his Multiplier, but does the standard regular 4d6 or whatever still apply? Not multiplied for critical, just standard Sneak attack damage.

For Critical + Sneak the dice on the weapon and the strength bonus is multiplied but not the sneak. Bear in mind it is the dice that are multiplied, not the dice rolls.

So for a kukri, which is 1d4 damage with Crit: 18-20/x2 and for a rogue with +3d6 sneak attack, and say the rogue has 12 STR (+1 STR mod), the hitting critical (explained in the previous post) would look like this: 2d4+2+3d6. Each die is rolled separately, the weapon damage roll isn't simply multiplied, and sneak attack, if applicable, is added on after the multiplier.

[Booze Hound]

aodhan said:

logandoug said:

and here is one. if a rogue buys a piece of equipment that has the ability:
+1d6 sneak attack

does that add 1d6 sneak attack to his current 1d6 sneak attack? making it...what? 2d12? 1d12?

No. It just gives someone who doesn't have Sneak Attack the ability.

awwwww man...that stinks...now that orc fighting armor isn't even kinda worth it for me...now what to wear...Hmmm....