Questions to the players

[DM Richard (Retired)]

Imagine a creature has AC 75, STR 60, DEX 50, CON 10, no spell resistance, +30 to all saves and is a 3rd level undead mage with 12 hit points.

Answer the following questions for each of your characters and post it here.

What class is your character?

How difficult is this creature to kill?

What rating would you expect to see if your character examined it?

Out of 10 fights with this creature (starting far enough away from each other that you get one round of attacks before it is in melee range) how many fights would you win?

What should its CR be?

How would you beat it?

If everyone answers this from their own character's view point and then everyone reads this maybe people will start to understand what I'm saying.

[Jacob222]

call lightning once would put it down.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

So then would you call it effortless or what for Jacob?

[Talus]

Bar 5 Fighter 4: Couldn't touch it, not even on a 20
I would expect an impossible.

as for how I would beat it. um I would go get Jacob ;D

[DavidBluth]

Are you taking a hypothetical monster, or does this thing exist some where, because the creatures don't tend to pan out this way. That said, as Natharry, I could kill it with one Magic Missle, but as I doubt such an unbalenced creature exists on this server, this question seems moot.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

"Are you taking a hypothetical monster, or does this thing exist some where, because the creatures don't tend to pan out this way. That said, as Natharry, I could kill it with one Magic Missle, but as I doubt such an unbalenced creature exists on this server, this question seems moot."

Hypothetical... and the question is a tool to get some dialogue going here so that people understand how a creature can be impossible to one class and effortless to another. This is an extreme case, but all it takes is one feat, spell, piece of equipment, or ability that is your character's weakness and the creature is your bane while easy prey to another character.

[Kolfrosta]

Hmm...well....depends.....if a natural 20 to hit is rolled, and it is an automatic success, then, there is a slight chance my paladin *might* hit the thing once before it pummels her to the ground. However, it is a 3rd level undead......Turn Undead at 17th level, creature *should* be destroyed. (not sure if it gets a saving throw)

How difficult? Very, I would imagine, if not impossible.

Given the way the CR ratings go....it would probably show up as effortless or easy.....not always the case in game. What would I expect to see for a CR? Impossible. (or at least Very Difficult)

I think she could defeat it at least once in 10 tries....maybe.....with incredible luck/dice rolls.

[Retired DM Gallin]

Despite the fact that a creature such as this, would never appear in a game like this, the point is clear. It is an extremely difficult task to give a monster a CR because depending on it's strengths and weaknesses, it will be much harder or easier of various players to kill. A monster as stated above with a high armor class and no spell resistance would be cake to anyone with a few spells in store. Reverse it however, and you'll find that only a warrior would be capable of challenging the creature, leaving the spellcasters to be pummeled mercilessly.

Now to further complicate things, there is both the players inventory and the enemies inventory. Does a fighter with slashing resist have anything to fear against a few angry elves with longswords? Probably not, but replace just their longswords with clubs dealing bludgeoning damage instead and you suddenly have a very different fight on your hands.

The situation is so different from one player to the next that it is a hellish task to attempt to assign proper CR's to these monsters.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

*to Kolfrosta*


There is no saving throw vs. turn undead and yes it would be blasted to pieces. You would win 10 out of 10.

[Kolfrosta]

Thank you Richard...I have no prob admitting not knowing everything about game mechanics....

[DM Richard (Retired)]

You are welcome. Night all.

[Raine]

DM said:

Imagine a creature has AC 75, STR 60, DEX 50, CON 10, no spell resistance, +30 to all saves and is a 3rd level undead mage with 12 hit points.

Answer the following questions for each of your characters and post it here.

What class is your character?
How difficult is this creature to kill?
What rating would you expect to see if your character examined it?
Out of 10 fights with this creature (starting far enough away from each other that you get one round of attacks before it is in melee range) how many fights would you win?
What should its CR be?
How would you beat it?
If everyone answers this from their own character's view point and then everyone reads this maybe people will start to understand what I'm saying.

TEXTTEXTTEXTTEXTTEXTTEXT

Richard,

I would lay a slew of holy traps down, and following your combat rules, peg it once and then backpeddle as it approched and lead it through the traps. Even with a +30 save, 2 traps should kill it at 12 hitpoints.
If that was the case, I would say its moderate (being lvl 5). However, if I was not given the option to use my traps, I would say impossible, as I would only have a 5% chance per attack of hitting it (following the rule that a natural 20 always hits).

Does that answer your question?

~Raine

[Blackstaff]

I would use one of my Turn undead and it would be bye-bye for that creature

[tskfrc58]

from a character standpoint anyone using magic, traps, or turn undead above level 3 tis creature would be effortless. However, with pumped up dex and str, dex especially, this creature would slaughter in melle any character below level 4 in 1 hit, below level 8 in 2, 12 in 3, etc etc. A natural 20 would be needed By every melee character below 24th level (assuming an approximate AB of plus 35 for a 24th level ftr.

Yes, CRs are hard to assign, but general any creatue with altered attributes is already within melee range within a couple turns anyway. One of my favorite little "punishments" i habded down to someone i caught exploiting knowingly, or powerlevelling,etc on the server i used to DM on was to take your avergage chicken, nuke its dex and str, toggle it invulnerable, and then turn it loose on the offending player. It was only a chicken, but with dex 80 str 80 a half dozen attacks per round,and unkillable, well, you get the idea.

[Manshin]

I dont think he was really inquisitive about how you would kill the creature. It is pretty obvious. The point is about CRs. this is a lesson. Dont depend on CR. Use well balanced parties with a variety of skills and talents because you never know what you will be up against.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

Mostly correct. I did want people to think about options other than their normal methods as well. I hoped hearing how others deal with this might open peoples minds to options they may be ignoring.

But you are right a well balanced party can make a world of difference in the success of a trip. Let each person contribute to the success.

On a previous server my rogue was traveling with a group of high levels. There was a mage and 2 fighters and my rogue. I was 14th level and they were 18 to 20th. We decided to try this one crypt that they had been in before but I had never been in. The mage promised us that he could take care of us all the way through the dungeon. He bragged about how he had been through it before and that he had his spells prepared that would 'win the day'. Every level we entered I set traps. They made fun of me but I did it anyways. By the time we got to the bottom of the dungeon I must have set 40 traps.

They were talking about how they had encountered a very tough Fire Giant in the next room before. I decided to set traps down the hallway we had just fought our way down (accidentally spawning giants that killed me since the rest of the group was discussing tactics for the next room). When they finally decided I had been gone too long they came looking, killed the giants and raised me.

I finished setting more traps while they guarded me. We then proceeded to follow the mages plan. The plan fell apart real quick and the two fighters died. I was trying to stay in the giants way to buy the mage time to cast the spell he said he had that would win the day. I stood firm one round and was almost dead. Knowing that next round I'd be toast I got the heck out of the way and ran like the wind. The mage STILL hadn't stopped the giant. It beat the mage to death in 1 round and continued after me. Halfway down the hall and 10 traps later the giant was dead and I was able to raise the mage. One of the fighters had stablized and was raising the other fighter.

If I hadn't been given the time to set those traps the group would have lost that battle.

Do you allow everyone in your group to help out? Or are they so busy chasing after you in your wake of carnage that they don't get to do anything meaningful to add to your survival? Grouping up is great but teamwork doesn't come from being in a party.

Look at peoples answers here and realize that there are advantages in teaming up that you can make use of to survive and prosper.

[Jerico]

Nicelty played and good use of party.

Each of us can give others the chance to play their PCs to their abilities. Or even coach others in RP.

Ask questions of others let them talk. Direct them to skill usage if need be. By helping others use their characters you can enhance your own RP experience.

Again Nice Example Richard.

[kenny26]

char: 11 fgt/5 rog

the AC is impossible for me to touch short of rolling a 20.
the bonus for str 60 is +25, and it has BAB 1, that's +26 to hit.
with the use of one magical item and expertice i could bring my ac to 45 and with dodge that´s 46, meaning he can only hit me on a 20.

he has less than 20 hp, i have closer to 200 when i drink potion of endurance.
i have 3 attacks every round so in theory i should be able to kill this thing inside of 7 rounds.

i'd rate it as effortless.
heck a 5th level wizard could kill that thing faster than me.

this is obviously a trick question to demonstrate that CRs can never be perfected.
and to that i add that they can't be perfect but they can always be improved to suit the taste of most players.

[Misha Aogail]

From a 7 Rog/2 Fight/4 SD point of view, traps and holy water defintiely. Probably have a fighter or three near-by with blessed weapons to kill it once I lure it to them. Tori would more than likely just leave it if she was by herself. Undead suck for us rogue types.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

Is there a way to change how the CR of a monster is determined aside from hit dice? Or is this hardcoded into the game?

[Mr. Baboon]

It depends... if I was alone and had the chance, I'd run behind a door, set up a trap, and ready a few wands.

If it got the jump on me... I'd be dead.

I'm not sure how I'd classify that - that's one crazy dead guy.

[DM Richard (Retired)]

"Is there a way to change how the CR of a monster is determined aside from hit dice? Or is this hardcoded into the game?

Why do you ask?

Lets say you can change the CR. What should the CR be for this creature?

A level 5 mage could take it out in a heartbeat.

[Misha Aogail]

Yeah, but with a mage, you get those wifty spells like combust and phantasmal killer.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

I was thinking that if we could change the CR to base it on something other than hit dice that a formula could be created in order to take into account all the other abilities of creatures. I have started working on said formula, and hope that maybe I can find a formula that evens the playing field. When I come to a consensus on what I think might be ok, I might submit it to the DMs. As for now, we leave the system as is.

[Retired DM Gallin]

We always welcome input from players, and if you can come up with a good CR formula, we would be happy to take a look at it. However, keep in mind that altering the CR's for every monster in the module is an EXTREMELY long process, and can be very painful. I must admit I am somewhat skeptical as to how you plan on creating such a formula, but I would be happy to see what you come up with! By all means, post it when you have something discussable.

[tskfrc58]

int Charlevel
int totalMonsterCR

if(Charlevel=x)
totalMonsterCR=x*999999
endIf

try that one ....lol

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

The funny thing about this monster is that we are all assuming we knew the stats before fighting it, well Rich told us them and had us judge it by that. But imagine you run across it in the wilds, never seeing its type before. It is rated as effortless as most people have chosen to rate it, anyone handy with a sword would run straight in at it instead of wasting precious resources to kill it. Little did they know that this monster would kill them before they could even drink their first cure potion ... Only a mage would be the one to survive as they need to use their magic to kill. But what if this mage doesnt have any direct damage spells memorized, or they decide to initiate combat first without use of spells? Then they are as good as dead as well. And what happens if more than one spawn, as is usually the case with a high level and effortless monsters. Then I think many people would die. So in the case of me encountering it for the first time in the wilds, and only being able to observe this, I would rate it as challenging (I may have posted my view on this creature already, but I have been thinking about this guy A LOT). I would like to point out again, as was posted previously, that a monster such as this is completely broken/unbalanced. Yes I know the thread was supposed to teach us about CRs, but really, why does an undead mage have so much dex and str?

[DM Richard (Retired)]

He doesnt really need that much str or dex to be totally unbalanced.

You are right the first time most people would be slaughtered if ALONE. In a party there is more survivability.

Also this type of thing would end up in fighters staying away from the area and a sudden flock to the area for trappers and mages and clerics. The CR should not be set for the first battle only but based on the following battles as well.

Maybe I'll toss in a real frc monster tonight but not tell you which one it is.

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

I thought CRs should be based on 1 on 1 combat. You are right that you would survive better if you had more than one person grouped, but this is always the case. Most battles do get easier for characters after they find out what their weaknesses are. But that shouldnt make the CR lower. I think it should be dependent on your first encounter, because who knows how long it will take for you to figure out what the monster's weakness is?

[DM Richard (Retired)]

Dependant on whose first encounter? You can only assign one CR to a creature no matter how many people attack it at once or how many builds/classes try to fight it. Eventually someone learns its weakness and the number of fights after that instance are greater than the number of fights before that instance.