Raine
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Posts: 29
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Post by Raine on Feb 23, 2005 7:45:16 GMT -5
Hey guys, I just wanted to repost a couple questions I've had previously that never really got a dm responce. 1) PC Corpse Item: This was discussed here frc.proboards37.com/index.cgi?board=ideasandsuggestions&thread=1104189283&action=display&start=0 The general concensus was that a non lootable body icon would be neat when a PC died (with approperate weight mod), so that party members could drag pcs back to a temple to be healed. What are the chances of such a thing happening? 2) I've heard numerous mentions about FRC being in a near beta state. Does this mean that when FRC enters "official" beta, or when beta is complete, that their will be a character reset? Thanks! ~Raine
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Post by narayan on Feb 23, 2005 9:08:25 GMT -5
The general concensus was that a non lootable body icon would be neat when a PC died (with approperate weight mod), so that party members could drag pcs back to a temple to be healed. What are the chances of such a thing happening? I once played on a server, where if your battle buddy died, you could drag his unlootable body to a temple if you had the coin to pay for his ressurection. The funny thing was, if you didnt have the coin, you would dump his body on the cemetery. It was very funny because the cemetery was always getting full with bodies , but also with people searching for friends that they heard had died in combat - some of the conversations you heard there were a laugh ;D - great spot for role-play. (of course the bodies stays if the person doenst respawn his char.) Cheers
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Raine
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Posts: 29
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Post by Raine on Feb 23, 2005 9:49:13 GMT -5
Thats exactly what I'm talking about.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Feb 23, 2005 13:37:20 GMT -5
What do you mean by character reset Raine? Like all the 27 levels donovan has worked towards goes bye bye? Or character reset in that we all have to make new characters?
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Post by DM the Usurper on Feb 23, 2005 14:24:14 GMT -5
at this time I don't belive we are going to wipe the players accounts upon a completed product......although it has been discussed lightly by Justicar and myself, but I have been wiped before and to put it bluntly, it doesnt' feel real good .....but it would be widely discussed and polled way in advanced if something like that would ever be a possibility.
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Post by sharrington on Feb 23, 2005 16:23:29 GMT -5
Now the idea of corpse carrying sounds great.. but it also sounds very scripting intensive.. would it not be easier if you could just leave the body there and wen you returned to the temple there was an option to raise a person there.. and the script would port them to your location as well? it checks for anyone in the party thats dead.. raises them and ports them.. that sounds a lot simpler then creating bodies and stroing them in inventories and what not.. I mean with DM's assistance.. who hasn't RP'd carrying a body back to the temple where Meriss the druid comes out and raises them.. it would be almost the same... and give the DM's a break from such requests... though I do see the exploit there.. one person respawns and raises the rest of the party to save the rest xp.. maybe have it if one person respawns it forcibly respawns all dead people in the party.. I don't know.. it just sounds simpler this way...
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Post by manyasone on Feb 23, 2005 16:53:08 GMT -5
Well, people dropping bodies in a cemetary sounds just as bad as someone leaving a horde of unlooted creatures and promoting lag. On top of this, the scripting itself is quiet a task... *shrugs* I'm indifferent to the idea, though if I was forced to choose, I'd say that bodies is a needless expense. Of course, I fully support any choices made by the DMs, considering the amount of hard work they do to keep us happy.
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Post by narayan on Feb 23, 2005 17:13:22 GMT -5
though I do see the exploit there.. one person respawns and raises the rest of the party to save the rest xp.. maybe have it if one person respawns it forcibly respawns all dead people in the party.. I don't know.. it just sounds simpler this way... if you respawn, the body disapears, and you go to fugue plane. I dont think there would be a possibility to exploit, because, remember if all the party members died, i doubt that a solo player would go back to the same place alone just to raise the other players. On the other hand, because you died and went to fugue, you dont remember the last 30 minutes of your life and you dont know were you lost your party. This also, give an opening for role-play. Imagine your party members die and you are able to escape. Then you have a great opportunity to gather a rescuing mission. ;D Cool, right!! Imagine a player running into town asking for the help of the Silver Shields or of a nearby paladin fighter. unfortunately i think the servers been de-activated, but i doubt the DM would have any difficulty in find the script or the best way to implement this. Cheers
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Feb 23, 2005 19:39:28 GMT -5
I've roleplayed this same idea without the actual gear while roleplaying on several servers. Talk this idea out more. Here are some discussion points.
Why do you need to roleplay this? What is the overall effect? Are the exploits any different than what can happen currently?
Feel free to add more.
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Post by narayan on Feb 24, 2005 12:02:19 GMT -5
I personally think that this would add an extra realism element to FRC. Well, if this server asks to deal with death as real as possible, and role-play it well, it gets to a point where its really hard to handle it.
Why? Because of the level of money available, when your character gets to 5th or 6th level he can at least have 5 raise dead scrolls or more.
If we think about this, its weird because if death is an important issue here, the raise scrolls should cost a lot of money, i.e. 10k or more - we must understand that is a powerful magic going on here, you can actually bring someone from the death plane back to life.
This would bring up two points:
First - the quantity of raise dead scrolls would diminished and only some characters would carry them (i.e. the most powerful or the good intended (paladins/clerics), and not the simpleton 3rd or 4th lvl character. and would make the raised player "really" thank the other player, its not everyone that wastes 10k on someone, this would bring up the good nature of paladins, or good-oriented cleric deities.
Secondly, the lower players would still have the chance of transporting the fallen body of a buddy back to a temple where, for a lesser fee (maybe 2500k), the priest could raise the fallen warrior.
Finally, if death is taken seriously here, why the hell you have players that can raise other for 1500k? ask them if they are "all right? " and go on killing and exploring ?
As i said before, this is only my opinion.
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Raine
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Posts: 29
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Post by Raine on Feb 24, 2005 15:37:24 GMT -5
I'm going to side w/ alot of what Narayan has said..
To answer a few questions
1) City of Arabel has this system. The difference (which I am completely against) Is your corpse is completely lootable. It was disccused in depth in another post that this would be a BAD idea.
2) There really isn't a chance for exploit. When said dead PC is either raised or respawns, their corpse dissappears. So if someone that the PC doesn't like starts running of with their corpse, they could respawn if they really wanted to. Also, there would be no difference in one person in a party respawning, getting several raise dead scrolls, and raising said dead party vs dragging them back to the healer. (Well..actually..the one difference is unless he has a strength of 25-30, he'd have to drag them one at a time because of the weight vs 1 pound for the scrolls. *grin*)
3) If this system was implemented, I agree that the price of Raise dead scrolls SHOULD go up. A lot. But I also feel that if a person takes the time to drag a companions body to a healer, he shouldn't be overkilled on price; maybe make the price of the healer raising the dead companion slightly higher than the current cost of a raise dead scroll.
Now, some of the pros of this system:
1) It brings more in depth roleplay. As someone mentioned, a lvl 4 character busting out with a raise dead scroll, vs having to carry his companion back to town. It DOES make death a little more difficult, but without having to raise the exp penalty or things like that. Also, imagine this; (mind you it would involve players consent on roleplay)
A) Player A and Player B get into a fight. Player A wins. He takes player B's body as a trophy, leaving a message for player B's friends "If you want your friends body back, then meet me here."
B) Paladin is on his way to a grand adventure, and comes across a body. Normally, he might just go "Eh...why not" and waste a raise dead scroll, bringing said corpse back to life. No real effort wasted, Paladin feels he's done his good deed for the hour, and moves on. Instead!: Paladin is on his way to grand adventure, and comes across a body. He hasn't done his good deed for the hour, but it would take him at least 10 minutes to drag this body back to a healer. Thats 20 minutes (10 minutes each way) out of his grand adventure. Maybe his god is busy and wouldn't notice if he just kept going....
Cons: I don't know a lot about scrippting. I know the script is avaliable, but I dont have the first clue how hard it would be to impliment, or what server-side problems might happen.
Thoughts?
~Raine
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Post by narayan on Feb 24, 2005 19:46:09 GMT -5
Please, dont get me wrong, when i say "the problem is because of the money available". I think that the money in this world is very well balanced, from what you earn from adventuring to what you aim to buy. You feel good after saving for three weeks all your money and then go spend on the item you wanted - its like some psicological target your mind have. Im just saying is as a first step, if death is so important here, the raise death spell should have its price checked and raised (i leave that to the DM to set). That, in my opinion, would solve the problem of people having live saving credits in the game. (Sometimes i feel that im playing a arcade machine, because there you insert a coin to continue playing, here you use a raise scroll and some healing potions, and you go on with what you were doing...it doesnt sound very role-playing to me!) Imagine the following most common scenario - You are in a party of 4 people that you have just met, and you are adventuring. The party encounters a monster, it kills half the party, the rest of the party kill the beast. You survive - Your character has 2 scrolls. You think, ok ill use them and raise the two dead people. Why? Because it will only cost you 3k to do it (2 people) and you can get 3k easily from adventuring. Is this good-roleplay? No! You think "ive just met the guys!", but what is 3k to me?! since in two hours time i can recoup the money! Or the fallen players will give me there share of the loot as an appreciation for my act (as i have seen this happen in- game). And with 4 guys fit, we all can adventure and explore a bit more, instead of doing just the two of us. Now, if a raise scroll costed you 10k , you would never, ever, used it as easily as that. You would ponder very well if it was worth spending your money into two strangers you have just met. What you probably would do is; you and your buddy carry the dead guys back to a temple to get them raised by some cleric....and you keep your scroll for someone worth raising. Cheers
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Raine
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Posts: 29
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Post by Raine on Feb 24, 2005 20:43:49 GMT -5
Hoorah Narayan...Well said.
Raine
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Post by manyasone on Feb 24, 2005 21:41:29 GMT -5
Another thing, is (in PnP at least) these corpses would be a boon to necromancers... heheheh... My necromancer would take great pleasure in using "animate dead" on his fallen party members and gaining some undead slaves. On a more serious note, well stated Narayan.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Feb 25, 2005 14:28:25 GMT -5
I would just like to say that even if 10K was the cost of the scroll to raise 1 person, and you were in the situation Narayan had presented, I think you would use it just because, if 2 of your 4 people are dead, and you come across whatever killed your party members before in either the retreat or the press forward, you would be dead (it matters not whether you just met these people or not, you need them to live).
I will admit that the ease of raising someone does kind of contradict how a few people roleplay. Take for example an evil red wizard travelling with a certain neutral merc and a good cleric. Both the merc and cleric fell. What did the evil wizard do? Instead of running off, he decided to raise them. Why did he do this? Two reasons from what i suspect. First, because it was relatively inexpensive. Second because OOC, you're viewed as a real jackass if you force someone to respawn when you have the opportunity to raise them (even if this is how your evil wizzy would have done it). I do agree that picking up a body would be nice, but really in the interests of lag, I am still not thrilled about this idea. Sure it would help roleplay, but as I have stated in the other thread I believe Raine started, if the body is able to be picked up, it should be able to be looted (for realisms sake). And since I dont agree with this, I dont think it should be implemented.
I dont know if I am missing the point of this convo, but to me this thread implies to me that people want even harsher penalties on an already harsh death system. I am happy with the way it is as of right now. Maybe in the future if we get other things worked out *coughs* xp *coughs*, then maybe we can focus on this a little more.
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Raine
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Post by Raine on Feb 25, 2005 16:19:56 GMT -5
I do agree that picking up a body would be nice, but really in the interests of lag, I am still not thrilled about this idea. Sure it would help roleplay, but as I have stated in the other thread I believe Raine started, if the body is able to be picked up, it should be able to be looted (for realisms sake). And since I dont agree with this, I dont think it should be implemented. I dont know if I am missing the point of this convo, but to me this thread implies to me that people want even harsher penalties on an already harsh death system. I am happy with the way it is as of right now. TEXTTEXTI dont know a lot about server side stuff, but I dont think it would increase lag; only because there would (hopefully) be a realtively low amount of "bodies" at any given time, and as soon as the pc is raised/respawns, the body goes away. I imagine, at most, the amount of bodies on the server at any given time would be less than 12. Again, I'm rather ignorant though on server side stuff. As for realisms sake...There are a lot of things that are not "realistic". If I kill an orc wielding a big ass sword, I should get the sword. But it doesn't work like that, and I accept it for what it is. This is just one small way of adding a touch more realism to the game, but mostly as another tool to help enhance roleplay. You are completely missing the point of this conversation. It doesn't have so much to do with harsher death penalties, but a way to increase roleplay OF death. Trust me, I don't really want a harsher death penalty. I just want a way to make death a little more of an adventure. ~Raine
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Raine
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Post by Raine on Feb 26, 2005 15:18:57 GMT -5
So what do the DM's think about all of this?? ~Raine
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Post by tskfrc58 on Feb 28, 2005 16:10:30 GMT -5
In the laws of equivelant mass as applied to virtual gaming, looting a fallen player's corpse would be directly equivelant to cannibalizing your server's potential future playerbase, promoting "vultures" who wantonly farm (strip) anyone they find for a few coins, destroying all that that player had worked for. Why go adventure ,when all you need to do is buy a few invis potions, follow a likely victim into a dangerous area, and wait for him to die so you can "inherit" that plus 5 vorpal sword of sheer pwnage that the other guy spent months saving for?
A side effect would be that everyone in their right mind would be playing clerics or some combination of classes including cleric.
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Post by Islodain on Mar 6, 2005 16:14:23 GMT -5
I think there should be a character wipe *ducks* I think with the new XP system in place those epic characters that existed before are never gonna get more epic characters to party with. I think it would make a more even player base. This would also allow the builders to concentrate and the flow and build of the module instead of having to make epic encounters for the handful of epics out there. I know there are many other things in the works for this server as well. I also know it can be a pain to have your server vault character wiped. I myself have invested alot of time in my characters, but that is cause I really enjoy this server and hope to keep playing here a good while, character reset or not. I am glad to see you say if such a thing was to happen it would be announced way in advnce though.
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Post by manyasone on Mar 6, 2005 17:51:00 GMT -5
*ghetto voice* Oh no he didn't! Sorry to sound like a quitter, but after all the effort I put into my characters... Eww... No no no no no... wipe is bad. Wipe is very bad.
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Misha Aogail
Old School
Player of: Torian Burrfoot, Misha, Whisper, and Oriana Gant
Posts: 324
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Post by Misha Aogail on Mar 6, 2005 18:52:36 GMT -5
I don't know about anyone else, but I've noticed (part of the reason is, unfortunately, I do this myself as well) that most people don't even really start role-playing until their character is up enough in levels to actually begin wandering outside of Isinhold (for some that's level 2, for other's it's level 6 with a friend or two). I've been trying not to do that with Misha, but with Torian, I know that's pretty much what I did when my pals Solanir and Nadir weren't on (played by a couple of guys I know IRL). A character wipe could be good in that now that I have more of an idea of how I want my characters to be it'll be easier (and probably turn out better) to help them to attain that goal. Of course, like others have brought up, after putting all the effort into the characters as we have now, it would be kinda painful. The thing is though, if a character wipe is done, think of it as a true test of your roleplaying ability. True, everyone starts off at level 1 again, but think of all the new ways old friendships and new can be built, alliances be made, etc.
Anyhoo... The only thing I'd hate in a character wipe is Torian losing her Crude Wheel... That thing has become her trademark.
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Post by Mr. Baboon on Mar 6, 2005 21:00:53 GMT -5
I can atest that what Misha says is true: it's rather intimidating to go about a server when you first begin. I mean... I try to roleplay, and sometimes get flat out ignored, becuase I'm a low level. For awhile, the only person whom I would ever have a chance to speak with was a friend of mine OOC.
While I don't think that a server whipe would be the best idea, it certainly could help when the server leaves Beta stages... although I've got some really cool stuff on my character (such as a Pistol, and Swashbuckler's Leathers), I would be willing to go with a whipe - of course, I haven't been overly active on the server until last month.
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Post by theseeker on Mar 6, 2005 21:15:40 GMT -5
ahh no.. players have spent a lot of time building there pc up.. wipe them because ur a low lv pc ..not likey
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Mar 7, 2005 11:20:38 GMT -5
My opinion: no. Obviously it is because I have one of the high level characters (I am not even that high in respect to some out there). There is going to be a huge split between the player community on this issue. I can see from your standpoint how it would be nice to be equal levels with some of the toughest mofos out there and not have to worry about being cut down in one swipe. But think about it this way... there needs to be some high level people to run around because these are the ones that cause things to happen in the server. You as a low level get the opportunity to play these things out.
From my standpoint, yes the DMs should focus on things other than epic content. Epic characters should be more focused on influencing the world around them than gaining levels.
As a "near epic" character, I have NO problems with partying with people lower level than I. In fact, the only problem I see with the new xp system is that now people refuse to party with those that are higher level than themselves. I once watched as Corbin asked a party if they would like him to come with them. They made an in game excuse, but I am pretty sure that it was because they wouldnt get any xp because of the level disparity. So yes there is some prejudice against us high levels, but I dont care because I have given up on adventuring.
Please explain why having an even player base would be a good thing? As I see it, a couple of problems would occur. First off EVERYONE would be going to the same dungeons and places in the beginning. You would walk into the isinhold crypts and there would be like 10 people down there. Second off, the guilds would fall apart. What I mean by this is everyone in the guild starts at level one. One person becomes the head and delegates the orders (this person would have to spend a majority of their time RPing). Everyone else can run off and do whatever they want (including carrying out their orders the guild leader gave) and would probably gain levels faster than the guild leader. Now you have a level 1 bossing around a level 5. Trust me, this wont work, especially if the characters are in an evil guild where a show of power is often needed to show strength for leadership. One of the reasons I have waited to start a guild was because I wanted to be able to lead the guild and not have to worry about adventuring. Once it gets rolling, I dont know how involved I will need to be, but probably a lot (because the trend right now is that I spend around 3 hours a night, my whole night playing, delegating orders and gaining information).
Basically, I agree with ManyAsOne. I hate the idea of quitting, but if Hrothgar gets wiped to level 1, what reason is there for me to play? It doesnt make sense to me, and I would be incapable of playing him as he is now. I have had him grow as his power grows, and I wouldnt know how to revert him back to level one aside from forgetting all he had known. That basically says to me that the last 6 months of my time on this server was a waste...
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Mar 7, 2005 13:00:33 GMT -5
I just wanted to note about partying with high level characters. XP has nothing to do with it for me. The reason I don't want to party with high level characters is simply that it robs me of challenge and fun. If I am following Cormac around, not only do I feel useless, but strategy is out the window. When I encounter enemies that are tough for me and would normally warrent some tactics to beat, I usually find that they are all dead before I can get out: "Maybe we should.... oh, nevermind." I could care less about xp, Other than the RP, the other thing that makes this game fun is the excitment of a battle you are not sure you are going to win.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Mar 7, 2005 13:55:02 GMT -5
I know you are big on strategy Manshin, but I am sure that there are people out there that do care about the xp ...
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Post by Retired DM Gallin on Mar 7, 2005 14:44:58 GMT -5
In real life, people are not equal. Okay, that came out wrong and now I sound racist . What I mean is that some people are stronger then others. No matter who you are, you will find you are stronger then some people, yet weaker then others, that's just how life is.
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Post by Mr. Baboon on Mar 7, 2005 16:42:31 GMT -5
ahh no.. players have spent a lot of time building there pc up.. wipe them because ur a low lv pc ..not likey Nice way to completely misread what I said. I -did- have problems speaking with people. I am tossing myself into political situations, which is really what I go for IC, and now have no problem. What I DID say is that when you first start on the server, with a new character, it is difficult. As I also stated, I would be willing to go with a whipe; not that I want one. When a server goes through a whipe, far too often some of the best roleplayers will leave, upset that there characters that they have worked on for so long are being tossed. I've been playing this game for about three years, and all of that was on a single server, before I quit DM'ing for the past year on that same server, and went through two character whipes - one leaving beta stages, and the other becuase things got completely dull, and there was a coup for power among administration - it's a complicated story. At this point, from a players standpoint here on FRC, I can't possibly see what a server whipe could do for this server; roleplay is not stagnant, it is not the same thing day after day, new things rise and fall. I am not requesting a "wipe becuz I r a low lvl!1!".
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Mar 7, 2005 19:13:12 GMT -5
Hummmmmmmmm
*Now wonders who Mr. Baboon is*
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Post by Retired DM Gallin on Mar 7, 2005 19:17:07 GMT -5
*Laughs at Richard who hasn't figured it out yet*
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