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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 6, 2010 2:58:40 GMT -5
Being mad is one thing. Losing grip on reality and becoming an unstoppable force of anger is another. Do you not see the difference? I think you might be confusing the Barbarian Class with the Frenzied Berserker Prestige Class. Barbarians are in full control of their actions during rage, they just can't focus on anything that takes patience or concentration while raging. if you know baldurs gate 2.. theres an analogy there.. Beserker was a Ranger class.. Mincs was a Ranger, who entered into the Rage. that some folks are talking about... this evolved from 2nd to 3rd (or 3.5) to what Thyrm, is stating above.. Barbarian I think could rage, they just can direct their abilities. |
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Jan 6, 2010 3:09:20 GMT -5
Being mad is one thing. Losing grip on reality and becoming an unstoppable force of anger is another. Do you not see the difference? I think you might be confusing the Barbarian Class with the Frenzied Berserker Prestige Class. Barbarians are in full control of their actions during rage, they just can't focus on anything that takes patience or concentration while raging. From the Player's Handbook 3.0 (the edition NWN is based on)... Page 21: Barbarian: A ferocious warrior who uses fury and instinct to bring down foes. Page 25: Barbarian Rage: When he needs to, a barbarian can fly into a screaming blood frenzy. I bolded the parts that I think were most important. Edit: Also of interest, I found this: Ex-Barbarians A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (examples*). From this we can see that a barbarian CAN become lawful, and retain the speed, endurance, and reactions of a barbarian, but the thing that keeps them from being lawful is their own instability. If a barbarian puts that behind them, they can be lawful. NWN cannot take away certain abilities due to alignment change, however, and as such it is mechanically impossible to create an ex-barbarian in the NWN engine. *I didn't feel like typing them. |
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Post by Thrym on Jan 6, 2010 3:25:09 GMT -5
Fancy, but sadly the Barbarian still remains in control of his actions during rage, lawful chars can still aquire the exact same ability otherwise and there's still an outsider with the lawful subtype in the very first Monster Manual who has rage.
The fact that the barbarian keeps his other abilities when he is no barbarian anymore actually combines nicely with the fact that lawful characters can get their hands on rage if they try and remain lawful into an argument for the alignment restriction of the class not making any hint of sense to begin with.
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Jan 6, 2010 3:54:55 GMT -5
Fancy, but sadly the Barbarian still remains in control of his actions during rage, lawful chars can still aquire the exact same ability otherwise and there's still an outsider with the lawful subtype in the very first Monster Manual who has rage. The fact that the barbarian keeps his other abilities when he is no barbarian anymore actually combines nicely with the fact that lawful characters can get their hands on rage if they try and remain lawful into an argument for the alignment restriction of the class not making any hint of sense to begin with. You say "the very first Monster Manual" as if it is law, and then bring up supplemental books that can provide rage to lawful characters. There's disparity in the precedent of core and supplement, which you very clearly understand in your usage of the monster manual. As such, I think your own attitude has nixed any credibility supplemental books could have to offer (and besides, they do silly things in those books). On the matter of a demonic outsider with rage... So? Outsiders follow different rules from humanoids, don't they? Yes. They do. By the way, this is probably one of the stupid debates that lead not only to the removal of the Barbarian class from 4e, but also to the removal of Lawful Evil, Chaotic Good, and... uh... all the neutrals. |
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Post by Thrym on Jan 6, 2010 4:23:37 GMT -5
As I said before, two ways to get the rage class feature despite being lawful are right in the SRD, namely Avenger Druids and Half Orc Paragons. If even SRD is 'too obscure', you can just shapechange into a barbazu to get access to rage if you direly need a source that's in the PHB, though I dare say doing that is more obscure then just using material straight out of the SRD.  And yes, outsiders do follow different rules then mortals. Stricter rules. As in: 'If a lawful outsider does it, it probably is a "very good sign" it's not inherently chaotic to do so' Lastly, comparing anything the other side does to the boiling pile of *self censored* that is 4th edition is just such a low blow that I will choose to ignore it.  ... actually, that comment could be used to get me to start raging, and I like to think I'm quite lawful!  |
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Jan 6, 2010 4:37:00 GMT -5
As I said before, two ways to get the rage class feature despite being lawful are right in the SRD, namely Avenger Druids and Half Orc Paragons. If even SRD is 'too obscure', you can just shapechange into a barbazu to get access to rage if you direly need a source that's in the PHB, though I dare say doing that is more obscure then just using material straight out of the SRD. And yes, outsiders do follow different rules then mortals. Stricter rules. As in: 'If a lawful outsider does it, it probably is a "very good sign" it's not inherently chaotic to do so' Lastly, comparing anything the other side does to the boiling pile of *self censored* that is 4th edition is just such a low blow that I will choose to ignore it. ... actually, that comment could be used to get me to start raging, and I like to think I'm quite lawful! Paragon classes are stupid. They're like Dragon Disciples for every race, but the thing about dragon disciple is that you're awaking something you're not, not becoming more of what you are. Note that orcs are (often) chaotic evil in the Monster Manual. That is what an Orc paragon strives for (or at least should, or else he's a sucky paragon). Avenger Druids become more like nature's harsh side (i.e.: uncontrolled power), and I think there should be an alignment restriction against them being lawful. Yes, the SRD is 'too obscure,' because it's not an official WotC run thing. I can tell you that I think it's silly lawful outsiders have it (much more well-suited to the destructive force that is a demon). And I meant both of our points probably led to the removal of those things. "Barbarians can't be lawful." "But a lawful barbarian is totally plausible!" "No it isn't." "Yes it is!" "WILL YOU TWO SHUT UP? NO MORE BARBARIANS." Edit: I checked, and it's actually half-orc paragon that is listed as having Rage as one of their abilities. The Monster Manual lists half-orcs as having Barbarian as their favored class. Circles, we go around in them. |
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Post by Thrym on Jan 6, 2010 4:57:28 GMT -5
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter - I personally fail to see anything chaotic about raging in general. Randomly destroying stuff for the heck of it or loosing control during your rage (like a Frenzied Berserker, but not a barbarian) certainly isn't lawful, I'll give you that, but simply getting so mad at something that you become an 'unstoppable engine of destruction' is completely unaligned if you ask me. I for my part have little trouble coming up with a character concept of any given alignment from LG to CE who'd have the rage ability.
On a sidenote though, the SRD contents are completely official and all stem from WotC. The SRD is all the official material that falls under the Open Gaming License. It's just that each individual SRD website is not owned by WotC. SRD contents are from WotC, the SRD page we are using though is not owned by them.
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Post by Munroe on Jan 6, 2010 18:59:25 GMT -5
I disagree with Thyrm but he's right about the SRD anyway. Wizards of the Coast released the System Reference Document (SRD). It contains most of the elements of D&D 3.5e that fall under the Open Gaming License. If it's not in the SRD, it's usually closed content and can't be used by third-party publishers to make OGL-compatible material. You can download the 3.5e SRD from Wizards.com here: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35Most of the Player's Handbook and Monster Manual are included in the SRD, as well as some elements of the Dungeon Master's Guide, the Expanded Psionics Handbook and the Epic Level Handbook. Proprietary monsters that Wizards retains strict control over are not in the SRD. These include mind flayers, beholders, the gith, the death knight, the dracolich, and just about any monster appearing in books other than the primary Monster Manual. The SRD also does not include the rules for character stat generation and leveling up. |
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