vulpex
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Post by vulpex on Dec 29, 2009 7:48:30 GMT -5
My character Vendrell is a cleric of Gond with rogue and fighter levels. I recently took scribe scrolls when leveling (i know, not too great but has uses).
Having scribed some darkness scrolls he went on exploring. Bad part was when reading that scroll you have scribed, comes UMD check, with DC of 27.
I remember this has been an issue on other servers too, but i am not sure how to take on it.
Bug seems also have no logic, PfE is cast allright, said darkness and entropic shield require UMD roll.
Advice?
Is it connected to scribe scrolls feat?
If we just have to live with it, could i relevel?
PS This did not happen when i made a clerical scribe list which i posted on here too. I used some leveling mod for that. Then you were able to cast without any UMD check.
Edit Ah well, seems that this has been around before. Hasty me did not search properly. Advice on how to deal with it still apreciated.
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Post by Charon's Claw on Dec 29, 2009 14:43:17 GMT -5
From Zodika:
I'm leaving this question open for the more technical savvy people.
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Post by soulfien on Dec 29, 2009 14:57:48 GMT -5
This has been a problem since the beginning of NWN.
The problem actually resides in the UMD script that most servers use.
See, a scroll does not have much GP value which is what the original UMD script is based on. This allows a low-to-mid level rogue to use lvl 9 scrolls.
Now the new one actually makes a roll with a much higher DC. So now, you roll each time you use a scroll with the DC going up based on the level of the spell being cast.
Now here is the problem with this-
The MOMENT you put even ONE skill point in UMD, you are now using this new script and it OVERRIDES your other class levels- so if you have a level in wizard, guess what- you're no longer using wizard scrolls without a UMD level.
The script is specifically written to cover scrolls and so it does. But in all the years this has been an issue, I've never known of a fix for it other than to go back to the old way which has never been a favorite.
The only thing you can do is to be deleveled and NEVER again take UMD.
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Post by Charon's Claw on Dec 29, 2009 15:06:10 GMT -5
From Neoseanster:
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Post by Rook on Dec 29, 2009 15:35:37 GMT -5
From Zodika: I'm leaving this question open for the more technical savvy people. This is not something that I am currently working on. I will be working on horses next and don't know when I would get to this. I suspect it is something that could be fixed but I don't really know because I haven't looked into it. But perhaps my scripter teammate will get to it. We'll see. |
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Post by Charon's Claw on Dec 29, 2009 16:17:20 GMT -5
From Austrogoth:
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Post by kaltorac on Dec 29, 2009 16:43:52 GMT -5
Here's what is checked:
Returns TRUE if the Spell is allowed to be
cast, either because the character is allowed
to cast it or he has won the required UMD check
returns TRUE if
... spell not cast by an item
... item is not a scroll (may be extended)
... caster has levels in wiz, bard, sorc
... caster is no rogue and has no UMD skill
... caster has memorized this spell
... the property corresponding to the spell does not exist (2da inconsistency)
... a UMD check against 25+InnateLevel of the spell is won
In laymans terms ....
1) Sorcerors, Wizards and Bards have no UMD check even as rogues if the spell is not divine.
2) A **Divine Caster/Bard with zero points of UMD will have no issues. **Divine Casters include Clerics, Rangers, Druids and Paladins.
3) A Divine Caster with a single level of Rogue, Assassin or Shadow Dancer ... or is a Bard with one or more points of UMD cannot cast a spell normally available to them from scrolls unless it happens to be a spell they have in memory still.
This isn't merely a UMD issue though. It's also partly due to how Divine vs Arcane spells were set up by Bioware. Yes, they knew for a long time this was an issue. They didn't see it as a game breaker though and chose to focus on other "fixes" that would not rely on core engine changes was all.
Too address the reason why it only affected "Vulpex's" PC here and not in their test module .. well ... Whether or not UMD is enforced is set in each modules special events. By default it is off in most modules and needs turned on. Many servers like FRC and my own consider it crucial to game balance in a "hardcore" setting and do enable it. I also can remember a time here when it wasn't turned on and most folks could cast 9th level scrolls with only 10 or so points of UMD ever needed. (With the UMD check check left off, UMD for scrolls is based on their value and any racial/class/alignment restrictions, just as it is for other items and is easilly met).
Can the UMD checks be made "better" ... Yup! Not easilly though. You'd have to rewrite the script and check every possible spell each class can use and then decide on a case by case basis whether a UMD check will be required. Ideally, a check would only be made if the spell's innate leve exceeds the casters normal ability or is not of their class normally.
Hope this clears things up. A "fix" is on my own personal to do list", but like Bioware ... I don't see this as game breaking and am working on things that affect far more than the rare Divine Caster/Rogue PC. If and when I do address this UMD issue ... I'll gladdly share it here too.
Ooops .. missed that this was in the DM Q&A ... sorry. *should be in a technical section though:P*
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Post by Munroe on Dec 29, 2009 18:02:58 GMT -5
If the scroll says "Only Usable by Cleric" on it then you should be able to use it even with points into UMD if you have cleric levels.
We had a custom script for this on FRC but it was recently removed in an effort to see if the default scripts would work as well. If it's still a problem, we have a script that we're not using that does make these checks, but we were hoping the Bioware script had been improved in one of the patches.
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Post by Munroe on Dec 29, 2009 18:06:18 GMT -5
3) A Divine Caster with a single level of Rogue, Assassin or Shadow Dancer ... or is a Bard with one or more points of UMD cannot cast a spell normally available to them from scrolls unless it happens to be a spell they have in memory still. As a side note, shadowdancer doesn't have UMD as a class skill. |
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vulpex
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Post by vulpex on Dec 29, 2009 18:10:32 GMT -5
Ah yes, if i used a leveling mod, that obviously did not have our anti rogue script.
To clarify all scrolls were castable by cleric and even scribed by me.
It is just that i have never played combo cleric rogue, it being bit contradictary in most cases.
I think i can live it as it is, but is good to know. Or delevel 1 to get rid of scribe feat, which is pity.
Also, weird part is that some scrolls work ok, like protection from alignment.
And high dc for general scroll use is good, no objection from me there.
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Post by kaltorac on Dec 29, 2009 18:42:36 GMT -5
3) A Divine Caster with a single level of Rogue, Assassin or Shadow Dancer ... or is a Bard with one or more points of UMD cannot cast a spell normally available to them from scrolls unless it happens to be a spell they have in memory still. As a side note, shadowdancer doesn't have UMD as a class skill. Shadow Dancer along with rogue and assassin are still checked in the default Bioware UMD script regardless. With that script, having a single level in any of those classes forces a UMD check ... even if you've no points in it .. in which case you simply fail. |
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Post by Munroe on Dec 29, 2009 18:53:16 GMT -5
To clarify all scrolls were castable by cleric and even scribed by me. Bioware kind of screwed up on this point too. It's possible for a cleric to scribe scrolls that aren't usable by cleric. This is true of other classes as well. It doesn't matter if you scribed it or not, it doesn't matter if it's on your caster list or not, it has to have "Only Usable By (your class)" on it for you to use it. This is a separate issue from the wonky UMD checks. Though if you do have UMD you'll make a (legitimate, by mechanics) UMD check for those scrolls as well. |
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Post by minion on Dec 29, 2009 19:07:32 GMT -5
If the scroll says "Only Usable by Cleric" on it then you should be able to use it even with points into UMD if you have cleric levels. We had a custom script for this on FRC but it was recently removed in an effort to see if the default scripts would work as well. If it's still a problem, we have a script that we're not using that does make these checks, but we were hoping the Bioware script had been improved in one of the patches. it appears it's still a problem, as i recently found my cleric/rogue can't use scrolls of cleric spells, even though he has no levels in UMD as well.  |
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vulpex
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Post by vulpex on Dec 29, 2009 19:57:12 GMT -5
Entropic shield has text only cleric can use, it causes UMD check. Darkness has many classes able to, it causes same.
Testing with more expensive scrolls i can not do or is too lethal as i found out with darkness and manticoras, haha. Lucky me just leveled.
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vulpex
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Post by vulpex on Dec 31, 2009 1:03:19 GMT -5
So, what is the plan with this? Wait and see?
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Post by webscav on Jan 2, 2010 15:13:40 GMT -5
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vulpex
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Post by vulpex on Jan 17, 2010 13:47:35 GMT -5
*bump*
Aren't those for NWN 2?
Not to sound a whiner, but is there any hope for resolution for this? It really hoses cleric rogue.
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Post by Munroe on Jan 17, 2010 14:46:29 GMT -5
Were you able to read Darkness scrolls on FRC before that you had not scribed?
I ask because I'm trying to establish whether this is an ongoing issue that only recently was noticed, or an issue that only recently began.
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vulpex
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Post by vulpex on Jan 17, 2010 15:15:20 GMT -5
Stupid me can not recall if i ever used scrolls before getting scribe feat. There were not so many usefull ones found.
For now UMD checks for most scrolls i have tried.
If it needs testing, i am available, easy to delevel me one, scribe is latest feat i picked.
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Post by minion on Jan 17, 2010 17:07:59 GMT -5
it appears to me to be something pretty new. my cleric/rog, and a friend's druid/rog both have this problem, now unable to use scrolls that they could before. in the case of the druid/rog, the rog lvl came too recently to help figure out a time, but i know for a fact that as recently as a couple of months ago, if not even more recently than that, my cleric/rog could use his divine scrolls, everything from Endure Elements to Cure Crit Wounds. the character doesn't have (and i don't intend to take, unless this problem can't be fixed) any ranks in UMD, but has been a cleric/rog for quite some time. thank you for looking into it, Munroe, and best of luck!  (i'd rather not have to simply sell the thousands of gp worth of scrolls i've been hoarding for one of those really, really harsh days or pick up UMD to solve the issue. it's especially unfortunate because i actually took Scribe Scroll so he could help out more even while tapped.  ) |
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Post by webscav on Jan 19, 2010 2:39:04 GMT -5
*bump* Aren't those for NWN 2? Not to sound a whiner, but is there any hope for resolution for this? It really hoses cleric rogue. I'm pretty sure those scripts aren't for NWN2 since I wrote them... oh gods... years ago. Oh, and i would gladly tweak them some to whatever interpretation the DMs wanted. EDIT: Oh my god I feel old, I wrote those scripts almost seven years ago.... |
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(i'd rather not have to simply sell the thousands of gp worth of scrolls i've been hoarding for one of those really, really harsh days or pick up UMD to solve the issue. it's especially unfortunate because i actually took Scribe Scroll so he could help out more even while tapped. 
)