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Post by prophyet on Mar 6, 2005 18:28:42 GMT -5
My epic paladin has gotten into many arguements OOC about how he could tell that who he was talking to was evil, my reasoning that he is a paladin after all falls on many deaf ears who want to keep their characters villiany a secret. This is just all good and fair in Roleplay I guess, there are plenty of debates out there.
But with the debate lingering whether or not my Paladin can detect evil, several lowly NPC town and guild guards know in an instant that Artemis is evil with out so much as a 'Have we met before?' and keep him from visiting the only monk shop in the game.
I have no suggestions or questions here just a rant at the daichotomy of the server where my Paladin has great difilculty doing what should come second nature to him, while lowly NPC guards easily assess what should be difficult for them.
Rabble rabble rabble
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Mar 6, 2005 18:47:17 GMT -5
Valid complaint. One we were already discussing. Hopefully we will have an answer worked up before to long.
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Post by Grozer on Mar 6, 2005 22:09:44 GMT -5
I really didn't want to post any response to this because it might create some metagaming against Ranan. Since I put up his BIO, I noticed "an increase" in RP activity. All of sudden, people are trying to get him "to confess". But since I am assuming this is in relation to your run-in with Ranan, I thought it might help to clarify. If I appeared to be argueing I wasnt, its always a little difficult to convey feelings exactly while trying to type words. Its doesnt always come out the same way you intend it to. Im sure we can all relate. And if it appeared as me arguing, totally not intended.
Anyway, what did happen is... I had no idea who you were or what class, and you started questioning Ranan about his faith. I just sent you a tell asking how you got that information. Your response to me was 'a DM told me I picked up an evil aura about you.' (Note to DMs: it would help if you told the other PC as well so he can properly RP the situation... especially since I would think Ranan would also have a sense when a Paladin walks by) I wanted to be clear it was not metagaming and I don't believe that is a problem for me to do. To be honest I had planned to PM you in the next day or two and thank you for the great RP. I think both characters made a strong case for the time being.
As far as a Pally's ability to sense evil, IG terms what does this really mean? I guess I'm asking the DMs more than anything... would a Pally's sense tell him, 'ok pure evil' or that something is not right with that individual and force the person to do an investigation? What if the aura was the result of some recent ungood action rather than a way of life?
I guess the bottom line is how far do you swing the balance against playing an evil character? On the other hand, just because someone is evil doesn't mean they have broken the law, sometimes individuals work within the law to shape the course of events. Ranan knows this and also knows the protector's of Cormyr must operate within the law.
On a related point, I am finding it real interesting to play Ranan. But during my short time in FRC, I have noticed other evil characters and am wondering why is Ranan getting so much heat all of sudden. I've seen other evil PCs walk around town brandishing weapons and no one says a word. Granted I am not on 24/7, but I think I would have noticed it or heard about something like that.
Hopefully this didnt come off as a flame since that is not what I am intending. Prophyet brings up a good issue that probably needs some clarification IG terms.
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Post by manyasone on Mar 6, 2005 22:42:28 GMT -5
Well, my opinion on the matter is this:
If you are a paladin using detect evil, well, that's dandy. However, in most cases, when you run into someone with an evil aura or what have you, most true paladins would use what I like to call "skeptical compassion".
ManyAsOne's Dictionary of Terms: Skeptical compassion (pronounciation: "skep-tick-all com-pa-shin"), when one is able to treat another with respect and kindness while still keeping a watchful eye. See: "Suspicious Niceness"
So, your paladin sees an evil aura, does that give him the right to smite or harass them? No, because without witnessing an evil act itself, the paladin would be commiting an unfounded smiting or harassing another without just cause.
Detect Evil is not a way to permit harassment or to outright kill someone. It is a means to know if you should keep an eye on someone.
Example: High Preist of Lathader, Matinus Aurora (hehe... sorry... Best example I got) detects evil dripping off of Melkroth Malice in large amounts. Does he smite? No. He treats the evil dude with some respect and lets him go about his business (as long as it is not overtly evil), but keeps an eye on him, just in case.
Detect Evil is not the catch-all some paladins make it out to be. It is a waring to be weary. After all, it is possible that (as covered in the Book of Vile Darkness) someone could have had a close brush up with mega-evil and has some of the lingering aura clinging to them while they are not actually evil.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Mar 6, 2005 23:41:45 GMT -5
I couldn't have said it better myself!
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Post by manyasone on Mar 7, 2005 2:51:10 GMT -5
Ah, thanks, Rich.
I know my s**t...
That's right! I said it! I'm a geek! I know D&D!! I know StarTrek!! I know StarWars! Back off!
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Post by prophyet on Mar 7, 2005 5:00:57 GMT -5
Well, this rant was originally just to complain about the all knowing NPCs, but all conversations have wings.
Normally, Hierich just confronts evil characters and tells them to watch themselves. But Ranan is Blackguard - the Moux Jus of the evil villiany.
I really didnt read his bio until after our confrontation(after our conversation, I thought that I-as a player- should know more about the character I was argueing with), I (with the minor prompting of a DM, I wont name names to avoid any backlash) assumed that my paladin could feel that this wasn't your run of the mill cutthroat evil, but something far more dangerous. I thought that meeting a BlackGuard called for more than the usual routine I give to thieves and the like, besides I thought it would add color to the game.
I was very dismayed to find out that I was the third person that day to come down on him, I wanted to be the first.
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Post by prophyet on Mar 7, 2005 5:06:28 GMT -5
And of course all gods are not equal.
Lathander is far less tolerant and far more in-your-face about evil than most gods, and Hierich is ever faithful to his gods desires.
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Post by theseeker on Mar 7, 2005 5:11:57 GMT -5
well there a spells like hide alinement that clerics are surpose to have as well so i would advise ..when the clasic äre you evil im useing a ability im surpose to have pops up in the tells .. i would say *you sence nothing *because i would be useing my hide alinement that i should have as a cleric
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Post by Kolfrosta on Mar 7, 2005 5:59:56 GMT -5
Interesting....a DM would tip off one paladin.....yet.....not tip off the other that passed by shortly thereafter........
Hmmm...ah well, Shari isn't the "in your face" type......probably wouldn't have been as much fun to watch. Too lawful to do anything without proof.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Mar 7, 2005 8:07:01 GMT -5
Until items are placed in the game that will do this check for you, I suggest every one forget about detect alignment. It is not a part of the NWN game and not every one understands all the ramifications of it.
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Post by Grozer on Mar 7, 2005 10:10:14 GMT -5
And of course all gods are not equal. Lathander is far less tolerant and far more in-your-face about evil than most gods, and Hierich is ever faithful to his gods desires. Don't get me wrong, I'm totally OK with the whole thing. I just wanted to make sure you weren't complaining about the way it went down or something I did. I realized when I created Ranan it would not be easy, but I am tired of playing good characters! ;D I also don't mind Ranan having a arch enemy!! At the same time having played several LG characters, IMHO I dont see a pally instantly condemning someone or casting them as "souless" in the middle of town when said person is just standing there. One other point, our PCs interacted a couple of days previously... not sure if you remember... Hierich saw Ranan strike down several zhents that ambushed him and his party in order to save a traveling companion (he had his reasons for doing so), you don't think that would have had any influence?
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Post by Grozer on Mar 7, 2005 10:17:40 GMT -5
s I really didnt read his bio until after our confrontation(after our conversation, I thought that I-as a player- should know more about the character I was argueing with), Thanks. I (with the minor prompting of a DM, I wont name names to avoid any backlash) assumed that my paladin could feel that this wasn't your run of the mill cutthroat evil, but something far more dangerous. I thought that meeting a BlackGuard called for more than the usual routine I give to thieves and the like, besides I thought it would add color to the game. Just as a Pally would be able to sense evil, I would expect over time, evil PCs would be able to develop some sense that they are being "read" or something like that. You know evolution and survival thing... So my only point about the DM interaction is that I think they should have sent me a tell saying, "you feel your aura being read" or something more straight forward like feel the pain. ;D No hard feelings and I would not be upset with the DM... no worries. And yes it did add a lot of color for Ranan....
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Mar 7, 2005 13:17:07 GMT -5
I thought Paladins could only sense "hostile intent." Am I mistaken?
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Mar 7, 2005 13:56:33 GMT -5
According to the DnD source material, they can spot evil after spending so many rounds looking for it, eventually pinpointing it if it is within a certain distance (assuming that line of sight and other variables are discounted).
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Post by manyasone on Mar 7, 2005 14:27:47 GMT -5
Okay, so Paladins are allowed to detect evil here... Is it possible for spellcasting players to counter this like in PnP.
I mean, is it cool with the DMs if a caster empties one of his spell slots to represent a countering spell for this?
For example: Misderection which hinders divinitations, or undetectable alignment, or something?
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Post by prophyet on Mar 7, 2005 15:42:07 GMT -5
Well, I personally want to keep the Paladin's detect evil ability. It is centeral to their being.
And, even though, I am not sure how you can abuse an RPed conversation - if it goes over the top, other characters and a DM can easily put an end to it.
But I have always tried to use my Paladin's detect evil ability to build suspense and intrigue in the environment.
Evil people must expect some harrassment when they decide to leave the shadows and try to mingle in polite society.
And as Hierich gains levels, and especially after he gained his Epic levels, I am assuming that his status in society and powers of detection are growing, and trying to play as such as he feels that he has obligation to further hold the line between righteousness and wrongness.
Of course if I am overstepping my bounds in anyway, I would encourage critisms - PMs hopefully
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Post by kenny26 on Mar 7, 2005 17:04:33 GMT -5
good and evil... was only a matter of time before this can of worms was opened, 'cause it happens in most RPGs sooner or later.
people have different opinions about stuff, and what is a terrorist to one is a saint to another. i'm not saying i love terrorism or anything, just using it to establish my point that there will always be conflicting opinions on the sibject of good and evil.
the dnd (and therefor also nwn) approach to the subject of good & evil is purely black & white, choosing to say that good and evil is not at all realative. an evil char is evil to everyone because that's his alignment and it affects everyone regardless of what they think is evil in real life.
mostly this isn't a problem as long as the evil char is RP'ed as a real vallain. most people will agree that he is evil and the problem's solved.
add in the detect alignment and conceal alignment spells and things get real complicated when trying to define good and evil. they don't excist in nwn and can only be RP'ed until someone finds the magical script that can incorporate it into the game.
i think these spells are best left untouched until that script is found or made. otherwise someone could end up accused for metagaming and what-not... better just give the evil-doers a break and only oppose them when they reveal themselves.
my 2 cents...
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Post by Lord_Raven88 on Mar 7, 2005 18:49:50 GMT -5
For those interested below is a link to how the Detect Evil ability works in PnP
[url=http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsDtoE.html#detect-chaos ]d20 System Reference Document 3.5[/url] (page down to Detect Evil)
It seems that a thin sheet of lead prevents DE from working, lead lined Platemail Anyone ;D
Another interesting point is that is takes 3 rounds before DE show the user who in the 60' cone is evil
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Post by Kolfrosta on Mar 7, 2005 19:33:15 GMT -5
Unless, of course...there is just one person within that cone. ;D
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Mar 7, 2005 19:54:47 GMT -5
And that you can be stunned. How do you know there is only one person in the area? You may only see one but there may be more.
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Post by Lord_Raven88 on Mar 7, 2005 21:36:02 GMT -5
//Off topic ;D This reminds me of an occasion when as a DM a group of friends went up against a nasty rogue who had potions of Fly and Improved Invisibility. As the mage didn't have See Invisibility or Glitterdust, the handy Cleric used Detect Evil to determine where in the room the nasty little sneak was hiding. The spell was useful but slow in finding the rogue as it took 3 rounds to know where he was, so they could target him (-4) and kick his butt with missle weapons. Pity they didn't realise he could fly as well, as there was much frustration over his sneak attacks and confusion why they couldn't spot him. //Back on Topic On a personal level I dislike the DE ability of Paladin's, because as someone else already pointed out, just because your 'evil' doesn't mean you're 'bad'. Well you're 'bad' but they can't prove it ;D also if someone is Lawful Evil it's quite probably that they have never broken a law in there life (or caught at least), on the otherhand they may have used the laws to their advantage even when it isn't a 'good' thing to do. i.e. someone else suffers due to their application of the law. Just my rambling thoughts, but I would be quite annoyed if some poxy 'do-gooder' came up to me and started hassling me about the darkness in my heart! Like its a bad thing, after all how does one know that they are really a Paladin after all, maybe they are a servant of Cyric trying to sow strife and discord accross the land by pretending to be a Paladin. Hey that sounds like a cool character concept. muhaha Bottom line, if DE is introduced then Amulets of Proof vs Detect etc would need to be introduced as well. Outerwise gamebalance goes down the kaka (Toilet)
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Post by Grozer on Mar 7, 2005 21:50:28 GMT -5
It seems that a thin sheet of lead prevents DE from working, lead lined Platemail Anyone ;D I knew plate mail was good for something!
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Gusty
New Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Gusty on Mar 8, 2005 7:17:03 GMT -5
In my opinion (which is also the opinion of source materials) Blackguards should be so rank with evil that there would be no way not to know they are Evil. Evil is their bread and their drink, it oozes from their pores and is their passion in life... I have been thinking and frankly the idea of a Blackguard concealing or hiding themselves just rubs me all kinds of the wrong way. Blackguards are proud of being Evil and should be pursuing Good in the same way that Paladins should be rooting out the Blackguards.
Just my opinion. Anytime I see Paladins and Blackguards crossing paths I will in future notify both players and if I do not see characters heading to the edge of town for some knock down drag out RP if not outright PvP then I will consider changing some alignments... I encourage other DM's to enforce alignment violations as well as rewarding proper alignment RP.
I want to see holy paladins and unholy blackguards out there. Or else we will see some fighters out there.
- DM.G
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Post by Grozer on Mar 8, 2005 12:09:00 GMT -5
In my opinion (which is also the opinion of source materials) Blackguards should be so rank with evil that there would be no way not to know they are Evil. Evil is their bread and their drink, it oozes from their pores and is their passion in life... I believe the alignment justifies the actions and alignment is the guiding characteristic IMHO. I have been thinking and frankly the idea of a Blackguard concealing or hiding themselves just rubs me all kinds of the wrong way. Why? Has there never been a villian who hides himself within the rank and file to gain trust and influence while trying to manipulate events? Blackguards are proud of being Evil and should be pursuing Good in the same way that Paladins should be rooting out the Blackguards. Ranan is extremely proud, but there are many ways of pursuing good, they don't all involve overt actions. Are you suggesting that a LG Paladin should go around killing off evil Blackguards, i.e. rooting them out? If that's the case, then IMHO FRC needs to be balanced a bit. If it isn't safe for Blackguards to enter towns, then they probably would be going elsewhere. More suprising to me is why this hasn't happened sooner as I am not the first Blackguard in FRC. Just my opinion. Anytime I see Paladins and Blackguards crossing paths I will in future notify both players and if I do not see characters heading to the edge of town for some knock down drag out RP if not outright PvP then I will consider changing some alignments... I encourage other DM's to enforce alignment violations as well as rewarding proper alignment RP. I want to see holy paladins and unholy blackguards out there. Or else we will see some fighters out there. - DM.G Well, I have to disagree, I in no way believe that Ranan violated his alignment. A blackguard maybe rife with evil but there are other considerations. Just because a character is evil doesn't mean they go around killing everything that is good, that wouldn't make sense. To put this in perspective and give away way too much, Ranan is lawful evil and I really believe all his actions so far have been within his alignment. Having never played an evil character before I did spend time to help guide my RP and here is what I defined LE to be: LE characters follow strict code of conduct with little mercy or compassion, while using society and its laws to benefit themselves. To them structure and organization elevate those who deserve to rule and provide a clearly defined hierarchy. Power rules and the weak deserve their fate. Thus LE support systems that protect their own concerns; if someone else suffers than too bad. Such people obey laws out of fear from punishment or restrictions in reaching ultimate goals rather than high moral character. LE have grand plans (e.g. tyrants), are organizing, manipulating and calculating every move to enact the evil they want.Right or wrong this is how I've played Ranan and based on the above, there is no way he would have engaged Hierich, in town or outside of it, especially with Sharita standing right there. Causing a fight would me giving "law enforcement" valid reasons to ban or arrest him and give credibility to Hierich accusations. Ranan can't continue to "weave" his plans or continue to recuit the "disillusioned" with that kind of handicap. The bottom line is I know you guys make the rules and I am just trying to play a game. So if you want to tell me shut up and tell me you're playing him wrong, I guess I have to accept that even though I will continue to disagree. Not to sound like I am sucking up here, but I value your input Gusty. We have traded a couple of PMs about developing Ranan a bit so I think I understand where you are coming from. If you feel that strongly that I am underplaying the class, we can discuss re-rolling Ranan (...can't believe I just said that). Let me know via PM.
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Mar 8, 2005 13:12:28 GMT -5
Very valid points Grozer. Maybe I can help clarify Gustyrill's statement. I know he is not saying that you must go beat each other up since he included RP in the choices.
Evil characters can be subtle but there should be some signs that you are striving to undermine good and even other evil. With the exception of those that follow certain dieties (like Mask for example) Blackguards should be less subtle than any other classes except Cleric. They both get their extra abilities as direct gifts from their god.
We shouldn't have parties of Palidins and Blackguards running around together beating up monsters and going to the pub afterward for drinks every day.
Hope this clarifies some.
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Post by Lord_Raven88 on Mar 8, 2005 17:49:27 GMT -5
In my opinion (which is also the opinion of source materials) Blackguards should be so rank with evil that there would be no way not to know they are Evil. Evil is their bread and their drink, it oozes from their pores and is their passion in life... I have been thinking and frankly the idea of a Blackguard concealing or hiding themselves just rubs me all kinds of the wrong way. Blackguards are proud of being Evil and should be pursuing Good in the same way that Paladins should be rooting out the Blackguards. Sorry I don't agree with the above comments, I think it is perfectly legitimate for a throughly evil person to not be overtly evil. Think of the Emperor from Star Wars, in the beginning while he was subtlely taking over the republic, no-one (not even the Jedi, who are able to detect the dark side of the force) thought he was anything but a kindly well meaning 'trusted' politician. Then when the time was right he showed how evil and ruthless he really was. It wouldn't make much sense for a Blackguard to be wondering around town letting everyone know that he is a 'mortal fiend' and champion of evil. If every evil person was that blatant, then there would be a lot less evil people living. Just my opinion. Anytime I see Paladins and Blackguards crossing paths I will in future notify both players and if I do not see characters heading to the edge of town for some knock down drag out RP if not outright PvP then I will consider changing some alignments... I encourage other DM's to enforce alignment violations as well as rewarding proper alignment RP. I want to see holy paladins and unholy blackguards out there. Or else we will see some fighters out there. - DM.G What right does a Paladin have to confront a 'supposedly' evil person and harrass them because they have entered town! As long as the person is'nt a know criminal, and they aren't breaking any laws, then the Paladin should be true to his lawful alignment and leave the guy alone. One the otherhand I think it would be great if a subtle blackguard joined up with a Paladin's team, then there could be subtle attempts to undermine a Paladins beliefs, standards and maybe his/her reputation. Anyway these are just my thoughts on the matter, and in no way am I trying to flame DM Gustyrill option. ;D
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Post by Lord_Raven88 on Mar 8, 2005 18:10:22 GMT -5
The other problem is with how DnD classifys alignments, in DnD everything is nicely black or white, which makes it easier for players to understand there roles in the world. I personally feel that the DnD alignment system sucks! ;D In RL people almost never consider themselves evil, for instance the victims of a terrerist attack would consider the people who did it as evil, but the perpertrators would feel that what they did was justified and the right thing to do. Because the terrorist is capable of killing others doesn't mean that they are loving, kind and caring people. After all aren't 'good' people just as capable as killing otheres for the 'right' reason. Note: I'm not condoning terrorist activity (in fact I deplore it) I'm mearly using this as an example for discusion. So be mature and be nice please. So what is evil and what is good, most people would say it's subjective. Unless you are a psychopathic serial killer, I would say that most people wouldn't have any sort of darkness in there heart, sure they may be selfish, selfcentered, egotistical, have little empathy or compassion, and ruthless. But I'm sure that if you asked why they behaved in this manner they would have sound reasons which made sense to them. Having said all of this we are stuck with DnD alignments, and I would hope that a DM would take the time to discuss the actions of an evil person, before shifting their alignment based on what they have seen. Afterall the 'evil' person probably has very valid reasons for acting 'nice' and 'civilised', even to Paladins.
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Kharn597
Old School
PCs: Tenchi Yamato; Katha; Danny Tanneseph
Posts: 461
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Post by Kharn597 on Mar 8, 2005 18:32:51 GMT -5
What right does a Paladin have to confront a 'supposedly' evil person and harrass them because they have entered town! As long as the person is'nt a know criminal, and they aren't breaking any laws, then the Paladin should be true to his lawful alignment and leave the guy alone. One the otherhand I think it would be great if a subtle blackguard joined up with a Paladin's team, then there could be subtle attempts to undermine a Paladins beliefs, standards and maybe his/her reputation. Anyway these are just my thoughts on the matter, and in no way am I trying to flame DM Gustyrill option. ;D I think you have a point about paladins and black guard hunting together. Are not most Black Guard those who were once paladins but were converted to evil and there would have to be some way for a paladin to be converted I would think. Allowing an evil priest or blackguard to slowly undermind and convert a paladin would be a great chance for rping for many days, maybe even weeks and months. my 2 cents
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Gusty
New Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Gusty on Mar 9, 2005 4:08:56 GMT -5
See here is the thing... There is evil... and then there is Evil... and then there is EVIL...
Blackguards are EVIL and should be played as such.
You are I feel correct when you say that terrorists are not blackguards and may not even be evil at all... Nor is the Emperor from Star Wars a Forgotten Realms Blackguard, nor was he the Emperor while he was the politician. If he was a Blackguard, say for a minute he was, when he ascended to his Evil dominion *took his Blackguard levels* my guess is he did not hang out with Jedi's anymore (without throwing down and they always seem to know when the other side is around too, hmmm) or hang around the Coruscant campfire without an army of Stormtroopers to defend him.
This discussion about evil reminds me of a discussion about Law I had recently... A character was breaking the laws of Isinhold and when her alignment was adjusted her argument was that her actions didn't violate her own idea of what Law was.... "Well then I guess no-one violates their own idea of what law should be by that argument." I said as I moved her towards chaos with no regrets.
Blackguard - from the NWN - HoU rulebook
A Blackguard epitomizes evil. He is nothing short of a mortal fiend, a black knight with the foulest sort of reputation. A blackguard is an evil villain of the first order, equivalent in power to the righteous paladin, but devoted to the powers of darkness.
Epic Blackguard-
The Blackguard is a twisted reflection of the epic paladin, radiating evil power from every pore of his/her body.
PS.. in PnP a Blackguard must have made contact with a Fiendish Outsider (Devil or Demon) before they can even be considerred for the prestige of this class.
I hope this puts things in proper perspective for you all.
It may in fact be true that Isinhold is not a safe haven for Blackguards to be played if they are played to the fullest. *shrugs* So go somewhere else. And I am not singling anyone out for this. This goes for all Blackguards from now on, note this does not apply to evil thieves.. evil fighters, evil clerics... evil anything besides Blackguards. If someone doesn't want to play Evil, rank, foul, twisted, merciless, sick, scum of an individual then be a 'lowercase' evil fighter... no harm no foul.
But please do not degrade the good name of EVIL. muaheh...
DM Gustyrill
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