PVP and OOC Raises

[Aodhan the Unusual]

Biggest thing to remember is to not take PvP personally. Whether you get an OOC raise or not, don't condemn the player for it and don't let it ruin your fun if you happen to lose. It IS just a game after all and many seem to be forgetting that. Especially when it comes to PvP.

[Lokarn]

I actually agree with Glandash on some of his points.

PvP is not bad, it is not evil, it is not one player trying to force his will onto another player.

Perhaps we should call it Character Vs. Character, I am against playing semantic games with words however.

PvP is a tool that is no different than any others you utilize in this game. Stop thinking about it as if it means you lost some sort of moral argument.

Do you avoid other combat as devoutly as you avoid PvP? No, you don't. Most players go out and seek adventure in the form of killing other creatures controlled by an AI that can't compare to a human.

Embrace the idea that PvP is ok, it isn't something to do for any old reason, but when it does happen, have fun. If it scares you, have a fun little sparring match with some others for training.

Truth is, most combat characters are taught this way anyhow.

I will also say; You will never be as excited before, during, and after a fight as you get when another human is controlling your foe. Live a little, have some fun, and beat the snot out of a buddy once or twice, heal up and go again. Good times.

[moul]

Dec 5, 2009 18:11:03 GMT -5 Lokarn said:

Perhaps we should call it Character Vs. Character, I am against playing semantic games with words however.

That looks familiar....



Why not add a simple subdual tool? It is easy to do and you have scripters here who can do it and your systems would take to it without much of a problem.

It opens up all kinda of possibilties like buying some cards from somewhere to disguise themselves as bandits or orcs and robbing people...

It is easy and fun to do.

Allows for real sparring.

You could even have duels.

[828stingstingneo]

Here's my take on PvP and OOC raises:

First of all, I come from a PnP background, and my favorite aspects of the game are the RP, the discovery of new things and the teamwork. A PnP party is a team, and even with ideological differences they must learn to work together or fail. Good (ablility, not alignment) PnP players also are more of a team, working together so that all characters can have a share in the story. The story is a group effort.

I understand that some players here enjoy the competetive aspect of the game, perhaps especially if they come to roleplaying from more competetive video games, and I encourage you to find each other and enjoy the PvP aspects of the game as much as you like amongst yourselves.

However, I hate PvP. I don't like to compete. I like to be part of a team. I like to develop stories for my characters that please me, not have those stories smashed by PvP conflicts I have no control over. For me even the most heated PvM battles are unpleasant. Even as long as I've played I still struggle with the game mechanics, and whether in game or out of game I tend to freeze in an emergency and my thoughts are sluggish when I'm forced to think on my feet. At least with PvM I can to some extent choose my own level of challenge by avoiding places my character knows to be out of her league--or by gathering together a solid team. I come to the game to relax, usually at the end of my day, already tired, just wanting to enjoy my friends, be part of a team, and get my gaming fix since PnP is no longer an option for me. Fortunately, I've never been in PvP here or on any server, but I know myself well enough to know I would hate the experience of it whether or not I win and whether or not I get an OOC raise.

To reflect this, my characters are not fanatics and I avoid giving them arch-enemies. They tend to be neutral or friendly or wise enough to stay out of trouble. However, I did have one unfortunate experience with another player (almost double my character's level) who manipulated my character's story using threat of PvP. He did have his own story he was trying to advance, but it came at a price for my character's story. Fortunately, we didn't actually PvP, but to this day my character is not quite who I want her to be because of the incident. I have a serious problem with that. I especially have a serious problem with higher levels affecting lower level characters in such a way. Give other people a chance to develop the stories they want for their own characters.

Perhaps PvP is necessary to make an adventure game more realistic when good and evil fanatics are involved. However, I think the stories of all the characters involved should be taken into consideration, not just one's own. For me, the ideal PvP would be an OOC discussion between all players involved to agree that this conflict would be good for all of their stories. If they decide they want the story to go in a certain direction, they could even PvP using emotes leading to a predetermined outcome. If they all enjoy the adrenaline rush and the competition and an uncertain outcome, then they could fight it out. If the PvP is going to hurt any character's story in any way, it just shouldn't be done at all.

[ShadowCatJen]

Here's the crux of the situation.

When PCs get into a CvC situation with one another then it's going to be backed by RP reasons. This is going to be a given.

If the roleplay situation is calling for the death of one or another character, the fact that you lose XP to respawn makes the In Character situation be not fair OOCly. If both players are roleplaying to their best they should be rewarded for going through and seeing to the whole situation in a roleplay manner. However, because of the way the mechanics are, a respawn of the dead PC is a penalty XP wise. Basically, a player is being punished for roleplaying.

The other issue to this is that raises are not free. Unless the PC happens to be a Cleric of high enough level, a resurrection scroll would be used. Those scrolls cost. The coin that they earn, no matter how it's earned, is essentially being taken away. For the PC that won the death fight, they get a penalty in the form of resources. Again, if the player is roleplaying everything out, then this is OOCly unfair to that player. This penalty hurts more when the characters were only intending to spar and not kill (or just be in a bar room brawl if they're more likely to do that).

CvC situations are roleplay situations and to have players punished one way or another is the reason why there is usually OOC animosity or frustration added to it.

The suggestion I have is that until some other OOC raising mechanic or subdual system can be implemented, have it that in CvC situations that lead to death, the pair of players involved send a DM a PM of the situation with either logs or an accompanying screenshot to have the slain PC reimbursed for the XP lost on respawn -or- the PC that used the scroll for an OOC raised is re-compensated with another scroll.

By doing this no one loses anything in an RP driven situation and instead of arguing if OOC raises are the polite thing to do or not, everyone can just get on with the roleplay.

[Lokarn]

Dec 7, 2009 17:58:18 GMT -5 ShadowCatJen said:

Here's the crux of the situation.

When PCs get into a CvC situation with one another then it's going to be backed by RP reasons. This is going to be a given.

If the roleplay situation is calling for the death of one or another character, the fact that you lose XP to respawn makes the In Character situation be not fair OOCly. If both players are roleplaying to their best they should be rewarded for going through and seeing to the whole situation in a roleplay manner. However, because of the way the mechanics are, a respawn of the dead PC is a penalty XP wise. Basically, a player is being punished for roleplaying.

The other issue to this is that raises are not free. Unless the PC happens to be a Cleric of high enough level, a resurrection scroll would be used. Those scrolls cost. The coin that they earn, no matter how it's earned, is essentially being taken away. For the PC that won the death fight, they get a penalty in the form of resources. Again, if the player is roleplaying everything out, then this is OOCly unfair to that player. This penalty hurts more when the characters were only intending to spar and not kill (or just be in a bar room brawl if they're more likely to do that).

CvC situations are roleplay situations and to have players punished one way or another is the reason why there is usually OOC animosity or frustration added to it.

The suggestion I have is that until some other OOC raising mechanic or subdual system can be implemented, have it that in CvC situations that lead to death, the pair of players involved send a DM a PM of the situation with either logs or an accompanying screenshot to have the slain PC reimbursed for the XP lost on respawn -or- the PC that used the scroll for an OOC raised is re-compensated with another scroll.

By doing this no one loses anything in an RP driven situation and instead of arguing if OOC raises are the polite thing to do or not, everyone can just get on with the roleplay.

I agree to this somewhat.

I understand every thing you say, but I think of the xp loss as the penalty for death, with no "loss" for a death, what's stopping you from starting random.. "fun" fights?

Nothing will cause mass amounts of PvP faster than making the penalty for losing, zero.

How many of you have played WoW on a PvP server? The only real penalty to losing PvP there is a short jaunt to your corpse where you can immediately go fight again. Thus everyone tends to kill everyone on the opposing faction just 'cause.

I would like to emphasize the point you make about PvP situations OBVIOUSLY stemming from RP. The ONLY way PvP isn't based in RP, is if you make a character, walk up to any old person and start swinging, just 'cause.

[ShadowCatJen]

Dec 7, 2009 20:44:03 GMT -5 Lokarn said:

I understand every thing you say, but I think of the xp loss as the penalty for death, with no "loss" for a death, what's stopping you from starting random.. "fun" fights?

What would be stopping them is that they'd have to go through a DM in order to be compensated. What I left unsaid was that the DM would need to review it a bit and ask why the CvC situation occurred where it lead to death. They'd need to see if the roleplay reason was there and valid.

If Joe Schmoe were to come onto the server and just start random PvP fights for "fun" and then bring it up to a DM that Joe needs raise scroll compensation for OOC raising PCs he's killed then the obvious response to that is going to be a big, fat, and resounding "NO".

If Yuniva Starcoff, elven assassin, were to come onto the server, secretly arrange with other characters through roleplay to assassinate the ever upright Lathandrite paladin Sal Bucknee for getting too close to all the secrets, and manages to be successful in killing him... then OOCly raises Sal where more roleplay occurs after the CvC situation... and then contacts a DM with the appropriate logs, then Yuniva can be compensated for the raise scroll that was used OOCly. I would think the DM in question for this situation would see that it was fully roleplay oriented and not "just for kicks".

Wasn't saying that PCs shouldn't receive XP loss for death or suggesting a change in the death system. An automatic script that somehow doesn't take away XP for a death that happened as a result of PvP would be... a really really bad idea. However, if RP is to be rewarded, even if that RP leads to CvC death situations, then it's best to be regulated via the crew. With so many variables for an RP driven CvC situation, DM decision is one of the few solutions left.

[soulfien]

Well, my take on it is different than SCJ's... I Permakill my PC's if it comes down to an OOC raise.

I come from text muds where you dropped your entire inventory on the ground when you died... "To the victor go the spoils!!" never meant so much as it did then.

I'd usually just take the item I wanted and let the person have the rest of his equipment back- hell, his pride was already hurt- no reason to make it worse on the guy.

Though if the person was an ass- like our griefer or worse- I'd take all his stuff to the incinerator.

So I am kind of conditioned to the harsh penalties of death.

I hate respawning- and the long walk of shame through the fugue, but in pvp, there's GOT to be a penalty for losing.

[Savoie Faire]

Assuming that players have already decided that PvP is necessary:

1) They can decide the winner pays the cost of the OOC raise,
2) They can decide the loser pays,
3) They can decide both share the cost, or
4) They can decide to take their lumps and respawn.

Of the four options, the only one I as DM will enforce is option 4.

If the players cannot come to an agreement on the possibility of or responsibility for OOC raises, no one will ever be forced to offer or pay for the raise of another.

The idea here is to not punish players for engaging in PvP which is conducted between consenting players and which furthers the storyline. The idea is to offer a mechanism to help lessen the sting of exp loss and the OOC hostility that sometimes accompanies death from PvP.

PvP can add a whole new dimension of roleplay. This hopefully encourages players who wish to PvP to do so in a responsible manner.

NO PLAYER IS ENTITLED TO FREE RAISES! IF YOUR CHARACTER DIES FOR WHATEVER REASON AND NO PC WISHES OR IS ABLE TO DO SO, NO PLAYER SHOULD CITE THIS DISCUSSION AS JUSTIFICATION TO DEMAND A FREE RAISE!

FURTHERMORE, NO MATTER THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN PLAYERS, NO DM WILL BE REQUIRED TO REIMBURSE ANYONE FOR HIS SCROLL USE.

[soulfien]

Agreed- If I am the one who initiates PVP I'll ooc raise the person.

If they attack me and lose they will get no ooc raise. They may still be raised IC though- depends on the RP involved.

[EDM Entori]

note this rant sort of ties in with another thread

penalties for loosing can be decided IC.

Tying your enemy to a tree, then raising him back to interogate him, strip him of his weapons and leave him the forest comes to mind.

a lot of people seem to think that if the other guys got logs of you putting the smack down then your done for..

nahah.. you gotta prove it was done.

you also gotta prove that you were defending yourself, not the other way around.

theres lots to be proven.

but it comes down to a bit of player honor, a bit of community spirit, to provide RP.


like my example above.. x person would find away to untie themselves. BUT.. if your stripped of your weapons/ spell components then I'd expect you to follow that.


Entori once had his hands broken, ..won't say how or by who, but he could not cast. and i was in a rather dangerous place. you have to get creative with that sort of stuff..

you can attempt to cast but I would give yourself a 50% odds of failure with broken hands and roll a dice. hold yourself to a standard.


Justicar has a good rule, "mind your own roleplay"

I do not mean to demerit what you all are doing here, these conversations are healthy. But the best way to help this is not here. as these people don't probably read the boards.

But leading by Example IG is. If these people continue to duegon hop the dm's will catch them and have a conversation with them.


Same like playing a monk or paladin of Corellon.... it gets by for a few levels untill someone goes WTF?


in then end good community helps it, a tell. I have a new low level character and I see all sorts of odd stuff.

anything that goes over the top you'll get a tell saying "are you sure dms would be cool with you background" etc.

I do not mean to be rude, but people are often new and do not understand. a player asked me the other day if corellon was better then fenmarel.. needless to say I think i confused them more, but at least he felt comfortable to ask and that is what we as a player base need to project.

[FireBeard]

I personally dont get in too much PVP, but when I do it's normally due to RP reasons and if the PvP is based on RP you usually have time to do a little prep. So If I do foresee the storyline leading up to a possible PvP I normally drop a tell to the other player or players letting them know that I could possible see our RP story leading to the characters getting in a PvP scrap and if they are ok with that. That normally takes care of any bitterness and from that point you can normally work out the details so both players are happy. Sometimes the PvP never happens or it does months later but either way you are already prepared if it happens. I do understand there are plenty of cases where this doesnt apply but I think most time if you take the time to send some tells and talk some things out before the PvP goes down you can clear up some troubles and problems. Also like to bring up an old thread which I think relates.

frc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=roleplaydiscussion&action=display&thread=803&page=1

[DM Hawk]

Thanks to everyone who posted constructive comments along this thread. We appreciate the input


Time to brew and ponder