Boogiedk
Old School
A mans home is his castle - But it shouldnt have to be his fortress
Posts: 252
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Post by Boogiedk on Mar 4, 2005 11:55:20 GMT -5
And then tell them about it in /tp is ok ?
It pisses the hell out of me , and if somebody does it again im gonna chop theyre head off , metagaming or not . . . (even if they are higher level than me )
To me its "griefing" and should be punished
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Post by narayan on Mar 4, 2005 12:09:35 GMT -5
To me its "griefing" and should be punished ...then identify him and warn the proper authorities (Silver Shields or other) . You've got a good chance for role-play there.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Mar 4, 2005 12:34:05 GMT -5
The pick pocketing rule is that you may pick pocket a "mark" only once per session... just like PvP.
Also, if the item stolen is above 100GP in value, it must be returned.
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Boogiedk
Old School
A mans home is his castle - But it shouldnt have to be his fortress
Posts: 252
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Post by Boogiedk on Mar 4, 2005 12:41:32 GMT -5
<<then identify him and warn the proper authorities (Silver Shields or other) . You've got a good chance for role-play there.>> Thats not the point ... people can pickpocket me all they want Its when i dont catch the thief in the act and then the culprit /tp´s "Ha ha i just stole your sword/shield/gold/ whatever and there is nothing you can do because its metagaming" that pisses me off. Cause IF i report the thief after the fact because of a /tp I will get accused of metagaming and banned/warned and it has happened to me twice (not in the same session but still <<Also, if the item stolen is above 100GP in value, it must be returned.>> even if they are not caught ?
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Mar 4, 2005 12:52:21 GMT -5
Yes, even if they aren't caught... actually, the rule is if the item is a prized possession, it must be returned no questions asked.
So, I suppose it is up for a bit of discussion... how do you feel about the value of items stolen? Meaning, what is the acceptable value before it really should be returned? I just said 100 gp, but that was just off the top of my head. Some player input here is in order.
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Boogiedk
Old School
A mans home is his castle - But it shouldnt have to be his fortress
Posts: 252
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Post by Boogiedk on Mar 4, 2005 12:56:48 GMT -5
In my idea , it should not necesarily be returned . . . But When the rules are so , I will abide by them (I dont play a rogue so it doesnt apply to me ) Maybe make it level based ? Just a thought
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Mar 4, 2005 13:49:57 GMT -5
Sound like several issues are being discussed here.
"Thats not the point ... people can pickpocket me all they want Its when i dont catch the thief in the act and then the culprit /tp´s "Ha ha i just stole your sword/shield/gold/ whatever and there is nothing you can do because its metagaming" that pisses me off."
If someone is rubbing your nose in it and sends a tell like this take a picture and send it to the DM team. I promise you we will have a DM to Player talk with them. Here are some direct quotes from the rules that pertain to this issue.
GENERAL RULES: "The main rule here is to have fun, but not at the expense of others." "Be kind to your fellow role-players." "No ridiculousness of any sort will be tolerated here."
As far as stealing is concerned. The only time you should contact the person after you stole an item is to RETURN the item.
PLAYER VS. PLAYER: "Theft is allowed on the server but taking a player's most prized possesions will not be tolerated. Please use your head. If you wouldn't want it stolen from your own character, be considerate and give it back in some way. Either "turn it in" to the law or contact them via a Tell. Please act responsibly on this and remember there is a real person on the other end who might have worked very hard to get that item!" "There will be no griefing of players allowed on this server." "In essence, keep obtrusive behavior to a minimum and everything will work out fine."
"<<Also, if the item stolen is above 100GP in value, it must be returned.>> even if they are not caught ?"
While the 100 gold piece value was just pulled off of the top of Justicar's head for an example, the exact wording is in the above quote. Server rules have nothing to do with a character being caught. A character can be Chaotic and break every Cormyr law there is, but if the player doesn't follow the server rules he will be dealt with. Don't confuse server rules and Cormyr laws. Don't confuse acceptable character actions and unacceptable player actions.
Under no circumstances should you break the rules of the server just because someone else did. If you take a picture WE will handle it! If you break the rules too, both of you could end up banned instead of one of you. Matter of fact, if you don't take pictures and you PK the other person, he could take pictures and end up getting you banned while he gets off scott free.
For those of you that don't know how to take pictures: Press the "print screen" key on your keyboard. This is not a nwn setting but a labled key on your keyboard. This will put a picture of what is currently showing on your screen in your NWN folder. If the information you want to record isn't on your screen scroll the information up till it shows then hit "print screen". ANYTIME you think something you've done might be called into question (or someone else has done something to you that you are going to report) I strongly recommend that you take a picture.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Mar 4, 2005 13:58:22 GMT -5
Alright BoogieDK, you got WAAAAYYY too upset over the fact that I took 23 gold from your pocket. Here was the case. I thought you were a DM/NPC controlled by a DM since you were running around in a Purple Dragons uniform. I went up to you (by the way I'm Hrothgar) and started a convo. As it proceeded, my character went to pat you on the shoulder. Now my problem was, I didnt wait for your response which was "*backs up* No touchy." or something like that. However I had already picked your pocket. At which point I sent you a tell saying "I picked your pocket, sorry " . At which point you logged off immediately, I assume very pissed off. I was going to offer you the 23 gold back OOC because I didnt wait for your response and that was poor RP on my part. But obviously I couldnt because you had logged off too fast. There is a thread that I started a long time ago to cover pick pocketing issues (I didnt even know how to pick pocket in the beginning ) . These are the rules too my understanding: 1) You may only pick pocket a target once a session (this does not mean once a server reset) 2) You may only pick pocket items that are feasible to be pickpocketed (no nabbing a suit of full plate). If you do get something that is not feasible, contact the player OOC and arrange for an OOC exchange for something of equal value. 3) You may only pick pocket a character that is in the range of levels (easy to overpowering). Otherwise you may be taking advantage of someone who has no chance at spotting you. 4) As justicar put it, over 100 gold must be reported. If the player wants the amount over 100 gold back, then you must return it. 5) Pick pocketing is a PvP action. If you catch the theif, you can take any PvP action you wish to take on them. However just going and killing them, you might miss out on some excellent RP opportunities. 6) It is courteous to tell them you pick pocketed them and the item you took. This is not meant as a gloating action, but rather, if you are about to run into a certain death situation, I think you would want to know if I nabbed your last raise scroll. This issue may become a lot larger in the future, but I will make sure that all of Hroth's "employees" understand these rules OOC. Anyone caught not abiding by them will be punished IC and OOC (by hroth if not by a DM). I woud like to point out that Pick pocket can be treated like a PvP situation. Just recently, I had the idea to swipe a very special short sword from a particular person. I thought it might be fun to RP out, so I sent a tell to the player and asked them if it would be ok. They decided the weapon was to precious and they didnt want to part with it and that was the end of it. No hurt feelings, no gripes. Once again, I will add, that I am not a DM, so my word is not final. But I think I have a fairly good understanding of these rules
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Mar 4, 2005 14:02:34 GMT -5
Is this the action you are upset over? CALMLY discussing this with the player instead of logging off and posting here would have resolved the issue immediately if this is true.
Most of our players are reasonable. A calm demeanor and talking things out will most of the time fix things. If not then take pics and turn it over to us.
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Boogiedk
Old School
A mans home is his castle - But it shouldnt have to be his fortress
Posts: 252
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Post by Boogiedk on Mar 4, 2005 14:08:52 GMT -5
One of them . . . It has happened bfore that . . . And Hroth (hey Hroth ) was just the final straw sort of speak . . . . Edit1: And i didnt even notice what he stole . . . Its the fact they "rub it in" that annoys me . . . Edit2: <<Alright BoogieDK, you got WAAAAYYY too upset over the fact that I took 23 gold from your pocket>> Youd be freakin upset over 23 g too , if you had lost your armor and sword TWICE to those freakin rustmonsters
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Mar 4, 2005 14:50:21 GMT -5
I hope you didnt misconstrue me saying "I picked your pocket, sorry " as gloating, cause that was not my intention at all. If you wish, I am willing to give back your 23 gold still as I considered the issue unresolved. I know how hard it is to lose stuff the rusties (Lost 50K worth of stuff in one battle with a rusty), and it is a part of life that we all must learn, unfortunately.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Mar 4, 2005 14:53:22 GMT -5
About catching a pickpocket, I imagine this goes off the spot skill, but I have a question. Even a block headed warrior with no spot skill can keep his eye on his possessions if he is suspicious that a pick pocket is tailing him. With Manshin, if I am ever suspicious, I will open my inventory and make sure nothing is disappearing. Is this metagaming? Just because you dont see the thief in the act of stealing it doesnt mean that while you are sublty watching your coin purse, you wont notice it vanishing. While you certainly didnt see the thief take it.. if there is only one grinning halfing anywhere near you.. that is a pretty good indication right? So wether or not I make my spot check, at least I know I am being pocket picked by someone in my close vicinity.
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Post by Grozer on Mar 4, 2005 15:11:00 GMT -5
About catching a pickpocket, I imagine this goes off the spot skill, but I have a question. Even a block headed warrior with no spot skill can keep his eye on his possessions if he is suspicious that a pick pocket is tailing him. With Manshin, if I am ever suspicious, I will open my inventory and make sure nothing is disappearing. Is this metagaming? Good question, i was thinking the same thing... While you certainly didnt see the thief take it.. if there is only one grinning halfing anywhere near you.. that is a pretty good indication right? Of course.... never trust a halfing!! ;D
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Mar 4, 2005 15:39:46 GMT -5
My opion on Manshins question is this: if you have your window open and you notice something disappear, you could definitely assume you had been pick pocketed. However, you cant assume from by who. Even if you confront that person, unless they admit it, you have no way of proving they took it.... So go on and assume it was the halfling, cause while she is distracting ya, hroth will be the one actually picking your pocket ;D
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Post by manyasone on Mar 4, 2005 15:40:18 GMT -5
The funny thing is that I don't play any rogues that pick-pocket, but my opinion is that pickpocketing should have no daily limit. It is a risk you take being an adventurer. I'm sure that if I was a pick-pocketing rogue and easily made a nad of someone's gold, I'd do it to them again later because they are an easy mark.
HOWEVER! Pick-pocketing items of unrealistic size... Well, if someone nabs a couple of 5k bank notes from me, that's still in the realm of possibilty... If someone somehow manages to nad my tower shield and a halbred... Well... That's just not believable... Where are they going to hide it?
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Post by manyasone on Mar 4, 2005 15:45:08 GMT -5
Hm... Tough one... I'd say that it is mild meta-gaming because not everyone that tails a person it a pick-pocketer... Of course, if your character strongly believes that they are being followed... Then it might not be meta-gaming...
The trick I use is to avoid letting people get too close in the first place...
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Boogiedk
Old School
A mans home is his castle - But it shouldnt have to be his fortress
Posts: 252
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Post by Boogiedk on Mar 4, 2005 15:56:54 GMT -5
Ok back from dinner ( Kiss me im Danish ) I consider the issue resolved you stole gold from me and got away clean . . . the gold is yours But consider Hroth on my "to watch list" as well , cause when i got to the inn and paid for my room i noticed my purse bein lighter than usual and Hroth was the only one close enough to me that could have done it Gero has no proof , but will surely be watchfull of Hroth in the future. . . . . .
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Misha Aogail
Old School
Player of: Torian Burrfoot, Misha, Whisper, and Oriana Gant
Posts: 324
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Post by Misha Aogail on Mar 4, 2005 16:17:31 GMT -5
Being a pickpocketer and a victim of one, I can tell you that it really is no fun losing your stuff to those with sticky fingers. My only problem with being pickpocketed, though, was by a person, who now thankfully is banned, and who stole Tori's wedding ring and an ioun stone she had gotten as a wedding gift. Now, seeing as most things have to be sold to those of... darker persuasion and are generally given less value than in a regular store, I know it can be kind of hard for someone to tell if a particular item is worth 100gp or not (unless they've come across that particular type of item before, of course).
A good example of de-valuing of stolen items was a set of Gloves of Jolting (or was it lightning...). Going through a crypt, Tori was the only one with raise scrolls, so Val had to "search" through her stuff to find them. Of course anything taken in such a way is labled stolen. With Tori's appraise skill in any normal shop, those gloves fetch at least 555 gp, but having to sell them to someone who only deals in stolen goods, I believe the sell back value was only something like 75gp. BIG difference. It's because of that that sometimes it's hard to tell the actual worth of an item.
*shrugs* Of course thems my two cents worth.
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Post by DavidBluth on Mar 4, 2005 18:54:11 GMT -5
And valuble worth isn't always by gold((Natharry has a sudden heart attack)), but by usefulness. One of my low lvl guys has had longswords stolen twice now, and didn't notice till he's neck deep in dangerous beasts with no familiar to keep them in crossbow range
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Post by Ixiume on Mar 6, 2005 0:50:02 GMT -5
I think that the hole Pick poket Thing is a usefull Tool for Rping but i whould have to say that Items like a tower sheild or Greatsword shouldent be able to be pick poketed i think items under 3lbs whould be Good and fair game to pick poket Other then that maybe it chould Go Right back to your invintorey also maybe stacked items like 10 cure seriouse potions i think you should only be able to Steal one of them and the other 9 go back to the person who you stole from
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Post by Mr. Baboon on Mar 6, 2005 16:12:01 GMT -5
For other thieves: If you pick someone's pocket, you should always offer back the item - it's only polite! Even if you feel that you've "earned" it by stealing it, just sending a tell asking if someone wants an item back will usually result in them letting you keep it (or at least, in my experiences).
I mean... If you're caught, well, it's all fair game. In character, it's against the law, you will be punished, etc. If the person is insulting you OOC for having stolen an item, whether it's worthwhile or not... DM's already posted what to do.
There is no reason for someone to be acting that way!
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Post by kenny26 on Mar 7, 2005 17:53:25 GMT -5
Ok back from dinner ( Kiss me im Danish ) lmao ;D surprisingly many danes play nwn, considering our population is only 6 mill. anyhow, back on topic. pick pocketing can be kinda hard to restrict, and nwn has this funny idea that any item can be pick pocketed regardles of size and value. but with a little common sense that issue isn't all too complicated. as for checking your inventory, i don't consider that metagaming. that would work in real life too. a person who worries for his possesions will check his pockets every so often and if someone's picked his pockets and gotten away with it, he will still realise that he's missing something. but that's the full extend of that option. you can't know who's the culprit if you didn't catch them doing it. you can only guess...
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Apr 13, 2005 1:40:25 GMT -5
Im gonna revive this thread and pose a different sort of question. Does mugging apply to the same rules of pick pocketing or is it different? Here are some of my intial thoughts. Pick pocketing is a secretive act, therefore the only risk you take is having some one win their spot check. If that happens you can just take off running, and they get a chance to chase you and what not. In pick pocketing, you also assume the consequences of picking that persons pocket, IE you already accept PvP rules when doing it.
Now here are the differences i see with mugging. First off, mugging, generally the person has to wear a disguise. Even in this instance, the character may still be recognized. So there is more risk here. Two, does one have to get consent from the other party as to potential PvP might happen. What I mean by this is, if I stop a character and say, "Give me all your money or die" And their character is going to refuse, how does one resolve the PvP conflict, because they were not forewarned about the possible ambush. However, if I warn everyone that I am about to mug them, I'm sorry, but someone is gonna metagame. Third, what is an appropriate demand for a mugging? Since I am a higher level character, and I know that I can mug a lower level for all hes worth, that to me would be griefing. However, since I am a higher level, there are far fewer people for me to mug. So if I say, "Give me all your money or you die" I dont expect to get all their money, but I would think that I would get more than a pick pocket would yield since I am taking more of a risk. Especially if I am doing this to a character that is higher level. And BTW, if I do initiate a mug, and your character starts casting a spell, I will assume that you are preparing for PvP and will strike immediately. Just forewarning.
Well give me your thoughts people, agreeing and disagreeing.
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Boogiedk
Old School
A mans home is his castle - But it shouldnt have to be his fortress
Posts: 252
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Post by Boogiedk on Apr 13, 2005 2:13:10 GMT -5
Say "gimme your money or die" to me, and one of us will be travelling the fugues (prolly me though cause i suck at PvP ) no matter how many levels there are between us But mugging can be hard cause people can say "uh huh Mister , I only got 10 gold but i dont want to loose my life so here you go " and infact this person can go around carrying the GNP of Cormyr
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Post by Talus on Apr 13, 2005 2:57:34 GMT -5
Then a Bluff Check would applie I think. Also the mugger should do a Intimidate check. Just my thoughts. Good question though Quad.
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Post by thogrimur on Apr 13, 2005 4:04:10 GMT -5
I agree with you in that mugging should be more profitable than a pick pocket attempt as there is more risk of being caught, and also cuz the victim might be Ko'd during the robbery...I would think subdual damage should apply to muggings if at all possible once this system goes into effect...er..maybe it already has...I haven't tried it. I also don't need the tell in advance...for muggings or PvP or anything...maybe a tell or two after the fact for sure but I would prefer the suprise of the encounter...and if RP'd well (which I am sure it would be) you can usually get the idea that PvP or a Mugging is coming your way... Maybe we could have a thread titled "Don't Ask / Don't Tell" ;D Then those who don't need tells to initiate these types of events could sign up on the thread and you know you could target them without worrying about any potential backlash...still no grounds for repeated griefing of course...ah well, just a thought. I'd sign up!
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Sabremoe
New Member
Sabre-noob
Posts: 26
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Post by Sabremoe on Apr 13, 2005 4:30:37 GMT -5
gloves fetch at least 555 gp, but having to sell them to someone who only deals in stolen goods, I believe the sell back value was only something like 75gp That's what I was going to say until I got to this post =D so returning an item OOC doesn't resolve the problem if someone took a diamond from Sabre On another point, what if I get pickpocketed, go to the inn, and notice my purse being lighter (how much lighter would a purse be if one loses 23gp/140k?) one COULD assume the only one who got close enough, that'd be good RP =D On the other hand, there could have been some shadowdancers about *shocked* *waits for someone to frame another*
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Post by kenny26 on Apr 14, 2005 7:42:25 GMT -5
i don't mind being mugged as long as i have a chance to do my own subsequent investigation and possibly find and kill the one who mugged me.
but an easy suggestion if you don't wanna anger people by engaging in possible PbP without warning: jump out and make the threat, and THEN send a tell 'if you don´t wanna PvP, run away now'
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Cole
New Member
Posts: 41
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Post by Cole on Apr 14, 2005 12:49:47 GMT -5
My opinion is if you mug someone, you should not only be opening up yourself to PvP with that character, but to any who represent the law.. i.e. the Silver shields, the Red Militia... or for that matter, anyone who likes the muggie and wants to smash the mugger. Once a character actually commits a punishable crime like that (and is caugt or identified) the paladins and other good characters shouldnt have to settle for dirty looks any more. There is no reason players shouldnt be able to band together to protect themselves from in-game criminals. After all, a mugger of high level doesnt need to worry about the newb he is mugging, but when the newbs buddies are epic, thats a differant story. Also, when it comes to disguises, There needs to be a standard there. I am tired of having to pretend I dont know who someone is just because they have a hood on. People have many characteristics that others can identify... Walk, talk, smell, and mannerisms to name a few. Only by winning a bluff check or a perform check should someone be able to hide their appearence. Also, as there is no sense motive in NWN (that I know of) I would suggest opposing these checks with the same check. A rogue skilled at bluffing is the best candidate to sniff out a bluff. A bard who knows how to perform is going to be able to detect a performance.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Apr 14, 2005 13:43:23 GMT -5
Sure it opens yourself up to PvP, but so does pickpocketing. As for forming groups to hunt down muggers... well I'd expect it since they are breaking the law. But this is yet another reason why i think the rewards should be higher for mugging than PP. As for seeing through disguises, well that's a different topic, but here is my take. Sight is the easiest way to identify a person. The things you mentioned : walk, talk, smell, and mannerisms, even fighting style, would only be things that one would know after spending a considerable time with the mugger, unless they had a very distinct feature ie: a limp, smells like a cow, has a lisp, or scratches themselves a lot. I would say the bluff check would only come into play if your character recognizes one of these features from the mugging. Just because you see someone leaning against the wall doesnt mean you should roll a bluff check because they arent doing anything that would give your character reason to suspect them.
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