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Post by Lady Frost on Mar 3, 2009 20:13:46 GMT -5
I looked and couldn't find a thread, but I'm sure there is one. Would someone bump or link a "How to deal with PvP death thread". If there isn't one then I guess we can start one here. Either way, here is what I have to say.
I'm curious other people thoughts about how someone should act after they've been a victim of a PvP death.
My thoughts are, if you are killed in a place you'd likely not be found you should log out (at least for a while, if not days). And if you don't, at least give it some time before you decide to play detective.
An example: Having been to orc mines in the Hullack recently I'll use that place. Say you are killed in there and left to rot. It makes no sense IC to release and immediately hunt for clues. Your body would likely not be found for a long time, if ever. Now, I'm not saying perma die, but commonsense needs to be taken into account. You shouldn't be hunting for clues before the killer can even come up with a disguise or gotten back to town.
To end it...
This isn't an attack on anyone, merely a reminder to others in their quest to RP as best they can.
P.S. Keeping a lid on evil deeds done is hard enough. Don't make it harder buy talking OOC to other players about events of a death/murder. It can get confusing sometimes as to what was learned IC and OOC.
P.P.S. Please use the Gnomish Log Rotator...
-Zoe
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Post by Charon's Claw on Mar 3, 2009 20:44:52 GMT -5
*puts stamp of approval on post*
I feel myself ((not a DM ruling)) that this is a good thing to go by. Even in a normal PvM death I log out for a day. In a PvP death well, it is very cheesy to respawn then look for clues with the trail is fresh.
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Post by ancientempathy on Mar 3, 2009 20:45:52 GMT -5
LOL, especially when the murderer hasnt even come up with a disguise yet *facepalm*
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Post by Lokarn on Mar 3, 2009 21:00:30 GMT -5
I was under the understanding that in a PvP death you lost more than the standard 30 mins of real life time memory loss..... I feel like an hour was correct? I really should know this.....
Also.... if you died..... and respawned..... HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU WERE MURDERED!!?? It could have been anything... and YOU DON'T remember.... I do know that at the least you lose 30 mins of REAL life time now, unless you have a very high ac/hp total.... there is no way you would remember how you died.... as most fights take about 1sec-2 mins....
Sorry... I have a dog in this one.
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Post by EDM Neo on Mar 3, 2009 21:26:04 GMT -5
Unless I'm mistaken, after a PvP death, there's a mandatory 30 minutes memory loss (although if individual players agree to a longer one, I doubt anyone'd object). After a non-PvP death, all memory loss is optional. Although on that note, I'm in agreement that it's pretty silly to not give people any time at all, and to immediately start looking for clues, etc. Not really that it's directly related, but the past two times my evil character attacked someone (evil character was disguised), they purposefully let them escape to tell others about it, and no one came searching or looking for clues at all.  Just luck of the draw, I guess. |
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Post by ConcreteSequential on Mar 3, 2009 21:46:41 GMT -5
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Post by feowynne on Mar 4, 2009 0:25:16 GMT -5
Not talking about it OOC is an excellent point though.
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Post by Munroe on Mar 4, 2009 1:58:00 GMT -5
Unless I'm mistaken, after a PvP death, there's a mandatory 30 minutes memory loss (although if individual players agree to a longer one, I doubt anyone'd object). After a non-PvP death, all memory loss is optional. Neoseanster is correct. In a PvP death, there is a 30 minute mandatory memory loss. In a PvE death, all memory loss is optional. (It used to be 30 minutes either way but that was changed.) If you are Raised IC you don't remember. If you are Raised OOC you don't remember. If you Respawn, you don't remember. If you die in PvP, YOU DON'T REMEMBER the 30 minutes prior to your character's death. The ONLY time you would remember is if a DM rules it never happened, in which case there is nothing to remember because the PvP never happened. Any time you take off of the server after a death is optional. I know on a respawn I usually will get to the healing house and then log-out not due to any sense of IC reason but because dying is frustrating and I don't want to play for a while. This is also true of OOC Raises. If I receive one (I received one once), I am likely to go to town and log out. I don't like OOC Raises though. They take all the sting out of death. I don't like to give them and I don't like to receive them, and I'm glad they aren't mandatory. |
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Post by ancientempathy on Mar 4, 2009 4:50:57 GMT -5
Well said Munroe
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Post by Munroe on Mar 4, 2009 5:31:10 GMT -5
Also forgot to mention, and this is sometimes forgotten, that no death is perma-death--no matter what the murderer does to the body--unless the player of the character desires to kill off their character. If something extreme is done to the body, the two players might want to work something out OOC to their mutual satisfaction, but a player cannot force another player to take a vacation from their character.
If the character is burnt, dismembered, beheaded and consumed by hogs, that character CAN still come back immediately if that's the will of the player. They can't remember the PvP death, 30 minutes before the death, or anything that happened after the death though. Call it what you will, somehow, some way, they got a Resurrection/True Resurrection, if you will. Maybe a god took pity on them, who knows. Characters do have a chance of receiving a divinely granted resurrection anyway when they die (based on the piety system), so consider it an extension of that if you must.
Again, if anyone wants to stay dead longer, maybe to help further a plot or something, that's their option.
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Post by Lady Frost on Mar 4, 2009 5:33:54 GMT -5
Well, in the situation that spawned this thread there were clues left as to what may have happened. Information being found out is ok.
My concern was only to get people to think of the amount of time they either: 1. stay logged off of that character or, 2. at least didn't try to immediately figure it out.
I know people like to play their characters and maybe you don't want an alt but I think some consideration of the body not being found should be taken into account even if it isn't a set rule of the server.
And to finish, I again want to say that this thread isn't meant to point fingers at people. Its just to remind people of things that can be overlooked in becoming a master RP'er.
-Zoe
(all communication about the mentioned situation is being handled in PM's and tells. Try to keep it out of the thread please. Thank You in advance)
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Post by EDM Neo on Mar 4, 2009 7:50:17 GMT -5
Unless I'm mistaken, after a PvP death, there's a mandatory 30 minutes memory loss (although if individual players agree to a longer one, I doubt anyone'd object). After a non-PvP death, all memory loss is optional. Neoseanster is correct. In a PvP death, there is a 30 minute mandatory memory loss. In a PvE death, all memory loss is optional. (It used to be 30 minutes either way but that was changed.) If you are Raised IC you don't remember. If you are Raised OOC you don't remember. If you Respawn, you don't remember. If you die in PvP, YOU DON'T REMEMBER the 30 minutes prior to your character's death. The ONLY time you would remember is if a DM rules it never happened, in which case there is nothing to remember because the PvP never happened. Just to be sure I'm not mistaken on this, also... another exception to the rule is if you die in PvP and are ressurected mid-combat, before the fight really ends? With the 30 minute rule only applying if you're ressurected after the fight's clear conclusion. |
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Post by feowynne on Mar 4, 2009 10:28:04 GMT -5
My concern was only to get people to think of the amount of time they either: 1. stay logged off of that character or, 2. at least didn't try to immediately figure it out. I think a good idea would be to send a PM to the character as an indication that you would not take them coming back quikcly in real-life time very positively. This is a place of nerds and if you have a good logic, we are compelled to accept it as nerds. That being said, the guidelines for PvP death could be altered OR the DM witnessing the PvP could rule that the person would have to stay dead longer for RP reasons. |
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Post by Grozer on Mar 4, 2009 13:54:48 GMT -5
My concern was only to get people to think of the amount of time they either: 1. stay logged off of that character or, 2. at least didn't try to immediately figure it out. I think a good idea would be to send a PM to the character as an indication that you would not take them coming back quikcly in real-life time very positively. This is a place of nerds and if you have a good logic, we are compelled to accept it as nerds. That being said, the guidelines for PvP death could be altered OR the DM witnessing the PvP could rule that the person would have to stay dead longer for RP reasons. Per DM Munroe the only DM change would be if the DM decided the the event never occurred. I do not believe a DM should do anything further than support the rule or nullify the PvP... why because is creates confusion. PvP is already a difficult situation to properly play out as indicated by the numerous threads and discussions. Keeping it simple (which I think the rule attempts to do) avoids misunderstandings, problems and hard feelings as well as any perception of favoritism. |
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Post by Lady Frost on Mar 4, 2009 14:47:20 GMT -5
I don't think we need more rules or changes either. I just wanted a place for players to say how they prefer to deal with PvP death or how they prefer others to deal with PvP death. Even how they may deal with death in general. It lets people that have been murdered tens of times in the past (and their murderers) share information with the people that are to be murdered tens of times in the future.  -Zoe P.S. I send appologies to all that have actually been murdered tens of times.  |
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Post by Munroe on Mar 4, 2009 20:28:24 GMT -5
Neoseanster is correct. In a PvP death, there is a 30 minute mandatory memory loss. In a PvE death, all memory loss is optional. (It used to be 30 minutes either way but that was changed.) If you are Raised IC you don't remember. If you are Raised OOC you don't remember. If you Respawn, you don't remember. If you die in PvP, YOU DON'T REMEMBER the 30 minutes prior to your character's death. The ONLY time you would remember is if a DM rules it never happened, in which case there is nothing to remember because the PvP never happened. Just to be sure I'm not mistaken on this, also... another exception to the rule is if you die in PvP and are ressurected mid-combat, before the fight really ends? With the 30 minute rule only applying if you're ressurected after the fight's clear conclusion. Yes, if you're immediately Raised by an ally while the PvP is still ongoing (such as in a war between rival sides), you may know who killed you. This is really just a time-saver so someone doesn't have to type "so-and-so just killed you" while they're in the middle of battle. This IS an exception, but it is also fairly straight-forward. |
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Post by guest on Mar 4, 2009 21:53:50 GMT -5
I think a good idea would be to send a PM to the character as an indication that you would not take them coming back quikcly in real-life time very positively. This is a place of nerds and if you have a good logic, we are compelled to accept it as nerds. That being said, the guidelines for PvP death could be altered OR the DM witnessing the PvP could rule that the person would have to stay dead longer for RP reasons. Per DM Munroe the only DM change would be if the DM decided the the event never occurred. I do not believe a DM should do anything further than support the rule or nullify the PvP... why because is creates confusion. PvP is already a difficult situation to properly play out as indicated by the numerous threads and discussions. Keeping it simple (which I think the rule attempts to do) avoids misunderstandings, problems and hard feelings as well as any perception of favoritism. |
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Mar 4, 2009 21:57:10 GMT -5
Subdual tools make all battles result in the other person waking up, not taking XP loss, and not really having any mechanical cost to getting your ass whupped.
Personally, I believe that OOC raises are bull, and that a subdual tool is the equivalent of a hard-coded OOC raise.
When I kill someone, I want that player to have long lasting repercussions for the battle that took place, and when I get killed, I want to have the same thing happen to me.
Faerun's not a pretty place. Respawn happens.
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Post by TermaForever on Mar 4, 2009 22:13:01 GMT -5
Subdual tools make all battles result in the other person waking up, not taking XP loss, and not really having any mechanical cost to getting your ass whupped. Personally, I believe that OOC raises are bull, and that a subdual tool is the equivalent of a hard-coded OOC raise. They are nice though for sparing matches with theoretically non-lethal weapons (the ones with the no damage property) that still always result in death or early battle termination because the strength bonus alone will do you in before its all over. For life and death situations though you are correct, subdual doesn't work. |
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Post by ancientempathy on Mar 4, 2009 22:23:20 GMT -5
Mmm...Rumor has it that there is a place on FRC that'll flip a subdual switch on PC's who are wanting to spar
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Post by ashaffer on Mar 4, 2009 22:34:25 GMT -5
When I kill someone, I want that player to have long lasting repercussions for the battle that took place, and when I get killed, I want to have the same thing happen to me. Faerun's not a pretty place. Respawn happens. *makes a mental note to kill Glandash's PC a few dozen times, and make him respawn*
;D ;D
I don't know about anyone else, but in my 3+ years on FRC I can count the PvPs I've been involved in on one hand... And that's for all of my PCs. It seems to me that some people get too PvP happy. If I go after someone then there has to be a -really- good reason for it.
Plus, if you are killed in a PVP you should err on the side of caution about who killed you, and not look for loopholes. It may take you longer to find out who killed you, but then no one can claim you metagamed anything. |
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Post by Charon's Claw on Mar 4, 2009 23:02:45 GMT -5
Keep in mind that you won't always find out who killed you. Sometimes you have to admit and have your character believe that it was not a murder that got you there in the first place. Some characters take great care in doing this so no repercussions happen to them. People do get away with it. |
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Post by Grozer on Mar 4, 2009 23:32:55 GMT -5
Keep in mind that you won't always find out who killed you. Sometimes you have to admit and have your character believe that it was not a murder that got you there in the first place. Some characters take great care in doing this so no repercussions happen to them. People do get away with it. You beat me to it... the bottom line is due to the 30 min rule all your PC would know is he/she died. For all they know they could have been trampled by a horse. Strange that everyone starts "looking" for a killer after dying... to me that premise alone is a problem. |
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Post by Munroe on Mar 5, 2009 0:28:32 GMT -5
There are a few instances were non-lethal damage/subdual damage would be useful (fist fights, kidnappings, subduing an attacker, etc), but for PvP where characters are trying to kill each other, I don't think subdual is appropriate. (Unless only one is trying to kill the other, and both sides aren't required to use subdual.)
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mourndarkv
Proven Member
If love is the brightest light, what doth it's shadows cast?
Posts: 157
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Post by mourndarkv on Mar 5, 2009 7:48:46 GMT -5
It seems to me that some people get too PvP happy. If I go after someone then there has to be a -really- good reason for it.
I hear ya there. Just the other day Gabe was standing in Isin town, having a moral debate when a one player overheard a very small portion of it, and immediately gathered two others and challenged Gabe. Lol. The conversation had absolutely nothing to do with any of the three, so to me.. they where just looking for A PvP fight. I was a little annoyed, they have action and PvP servers for that sort of thing.
Gabe's been in two Pvp fights in his 2 years of existence, and in both cases he was actually attacked first. Only once was it a good reason.
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Post by brian333 on Mar 5, 2009 12:21:14 GMT -5
The question here is, "How does PvP advance the story?"
If you're doing it for the sake of having PvP, then the RP before, during, and afterwards is pretty much irrelevant.
If you're doing it to advance the story or to develop your character, then the RP should flow from that.
For example, if your character is a bigot who hates followers of a particular sect who suddenly wakes in the healer's hall, the player might feel justified in seeking out members of that sect to accuse of his murder, no matter if he was actually slain by a fire beetle or something.
If, on the other hand, your character is an adventurer who has respawned dozens of times from monster related deaths, but this time you've been killed in PvP, why should your character assume anything but that he's gone into the wrong dungeon again?
Instead of figuring out how your PvP affects RP, try to think how your RP affects PvP. In the examples above, the driving force behind the decision to go for revenge has more to do with the previous play and characterization of your character, and nothing at all to do with the fact of the PvP death.
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dakari
Proven Member
Posts: 119
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Post by dakari on Apr 11, 2009 23:49:04 GMT -5
Well dare say most are over looking the best part of player killing the great roleplaying. Had some of the best roleplay after killing one fella ....perhaps not mention his name but he is well known long time player and dare say his plan went south on him and well give him credit did decide to tangle with three of us had the surprise. unfortunately his tactics were not quite all there bad roll actually. nevertheless never enjoyed the roleplay so much and dare say hope that would get the same treatment , even after in tells rather say both sides were impressed with each other. Nice to change the mundane things what makes the killings different there rare around here. Not matter of just some random act least not seen much of it myself. rather fit the story line and some great banter back and forth and all was praised. So if you do get involved try not to look at it as defeat or why me or punishment , dare say rather flattering especially if its done right . Try to bring some flare to it and own it been like maybe a handful times i can count and nothing gets more exciting cause it does not happen every day in FRC. Best take a break after say half hour recover and think why it happened, where this leading and hope to think people try to realize at least most times not personal its to further a plot of some sort. just my experiences anyways .....excluding them dwarves killed early on in frc that was just well territorial thing learned alot since then ..sorry to them folks got buried on dragonmere island with no headstone. Apologize now i was young and foolish at the time perhasp the island was big enough for a little band of dwarves at the time.
Dakari
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Post by Lady Frost on Nov 23, 2009 18:35:30 GMT -5
*Bump*
Along with another point I would like to add:
If you die in PvP. Wait!
There seems to be a need to respawn right away. Many people would like to RP with their new corpse. And! Perhaps it could lead to a raise. I really do hate OOC raises and usually won't give them. But, for example, Zoe killed a PC a long time ago near the kobolds. She was going to walk to town and casually mention seeing a rather fresh body that the kobolds seemed to be taking a liking to so that someone could maybe raise them. Unfortunately, they hit respawn right away.
Be patient, the RP could be interesting.
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Post by iangallowglas on Nov 23, 2009 19:13:00 GMT -5
I've had characters die in PvP situations and have always waited around, and have been raised each time that happens. Sometimes it was a lot of fun, sometimes not so much, but in these situations the RP continued and my character was raised.
However, if a player asked me to wait around (for more than a few minutes) so they could RP stuff with my characters corpse, and then left my character to respawn, I'd be disinclined to give them their fun in any future instances. That seems very one sided on the fun meter to me, and this game is hopefullly about us all having fun.
But I do think you should wait around and see how things develop. Most players in my experiences find a creative way to bring you back so fun can be had for all parties involved.
P.S. Not sure if this matters, and to be upfront , I really don't like PvP.
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Post by Lokarn on Nov 23, 2009 20:50:15 GMT -5
I usually ask the DM to raise anyone who I have killed, unless they were a mark of Onisha's. Sometimes players wait, sometimes they respawn in .5 seconds after death.
Generally, when someone RPs with your corpse it's more to include you into the why than anything like using the bathroom in one's mouth, or desecrating the corpse.... as a few have done....
I really can't understand why anyone doesn't like PvP, not to pick on you Seamus. I just don't understand the difference.
PvM = Player VS Monster/AI. Player fights computer generated AI that can't match what the NPC should really be capable of, IE dragons.
PvDM DM controls a monster and tries to kill your character. Sometimes in order to give you a chance, in some cases I have heard about. This is PVP in every aspect. What's wrong with it?
PvP. You are pitted against another character in the world who can and does sometimes represent an incredible challenge for your character. This is no different than fighting any other NPC, except they may use their abilities to the best possible outcome for them. I prefer this type of combat personally, it's difficult, and if people can remain sane, fun.
I have one major point however. PvP combat should be done as often as possible with characters who are near your own abilities. Killing a lvl 6 with a lvl 25 should only be done if they strike first, or absolutely push and don't take an out that you should be allowing for. Even then, cursing, level draining, holding, harm [the spell] them and let them know you can hurt them.
I don't like easy combat. It's why I never place more than one trap on the same space, too easy. Err... didn't. Oni's dead nowadays.
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Just luck of the draw, I guess.
