Weapon Masters and their weapons

[Manshin]

This thread is somethig I thought of latley that I believe has merit. Currently it is a non-issue, as I "believe" Manshin is the ONLY Weapon Master on FRC. But, for those of you striving for it, keep this in mind:

Some CEP weapons are based on existing weapons, the most readily available example is the "Nodachi" which is based off of the greatsword. Manshin is a weaponmaster in the use of the Nodachi, however in RP terms, that doesnt make him a master of the greatsword, as the two types of weapons are COMPLETELY differant. Trouble is, if I wanted to pick up a greatsword and use it, with the way the CEP is set up, I could, and I would be able to use it just as well as my Nodachi.

Players who take a prestigue class, especially a powerful one like weapon-master, have an RP duty to play their class realistically. If you master a Greatsword, stick to it, dont use a Nodachi or vice versa... even if it means passing up a more powerful weapon! It is that kind of IC devotion to your weapon of choice that makes a weapon master "believable" to others, and not just a power build. This applies to all differant weapons that have CEP base weapons.

[mourndarkv]

Great post Manshin.

[Keetena]

Yep yep - I hope one day see Manshin teaching someone the ways of a weapon master... hmmm... weapon master... sweet... with some effort imagine Keetena epic weapon master of Sune with the deadly whirlslaping attack of her silken sash whip? lol ;p

Seriously

Manshin is absolutely right, and not only to weaponmasters, a character roleplay based constructed is very interesting and specially delicious to see... power build is ugly and boring - don't I told any of you Keetena was made to be a shadowdancer? (she even has an explanation to this in her bio) and when I reached all the pre requiriments I thought better and saw her ways weren't compatible with the shadowdancers so I decided leave this behind and do what she really worked to be IG - a bard! Later I started other ways in the character, she became to be a priest *she has no cleric levels but not all priests have this, not all priests do miracles, and dms were informed in the occasion, and saw no problem in this since I ever roleplayed like a cleric of Sune* and later after ask the dms permission she was blessed with the title of Heartwarder of Sune - she has all the requirements of the book, but this was only a roleplay decision, cause she gained no powers and nothing more - what I gained with this? LOTS of utterly fun.
By the way Keet is the only character who uses whip as weapon, specially designed, not strong at all, cause a whip wasn't made to be a deadly weapon, but one I like a lot and see too as a recognition of my dedication to do a character not made to be a killer machine.

Manshin has Korfuji, a blade with history that had passed the hands of many samurai before Man, all the roleplay about his doubts about his own valor, and his dedication to the weaponmastering of his blade was amanzingly detailed and really interesting - I do still remenber the scenes of he talking about with Keet, good ones

and yes, I talk a lot... and more about myself... sorry for polute your threat Man X)

LOOK THE FIRST POST OF MAN - IS MORE IMPORTANT X)

[Manshin]

*bump* There is a new crop of Weapon Master's coming up... rapidly, and so I think this is valid once again. I also want to put in that a weapon master is not a fighter. At all. A Weapon Master is much more closley attuned to a monk than a fighter. Like a monk, a WM tries to achieve perfection of his art with his choosen weapon. Mastering the "Ki" neccessary to attune his mind and body to his art is not something that can be achieved by a slovenly fighter who has achieved great prowess by beating the crap out of people in bars. A weapon master's ability comes from training every part of his being, like a monk. Self awareness, an intelligent approach to combat, patience, and strict self dicipline. These are things which should define a WM. Those of you taking Weapon Master should keep this in mind. The class should never be taken lightly or just because of the cool benifits. If your characte is a roudy fighter who never gave a second thought to "Ki" and just loves to fight, you should seriously reconsider taking WM. New characters should be striving toward the weapon master class from early on, focusing on the specialized skills and mind-set that a future WM must have. I personally RPed every prerequisite feat as part of mastering the nodachi, and I think that should just be something that, as players on a Roleplaying Server, we should do. Because this class is potentially very powerful, its your responsibilty to put the time and RP into it that makes it believable. This really applies to any class you take.

Manshin

[moulinous]

Completly agree and Manshin plays him well, even if he is a grasshoppin eatin monk who does cart wheels in battle like sum overgrown girlie....

[marklar]

manshin i couldn't agree more!

same goes for the AA it's like the weapon master in my mind but with a bow!

[Keetena]

I really like to read Manshin words about weapon masters - in PnP I once had a player to do a weapon master and his master was in fact a monk in most aspects except in the base class monk itself.

And no, arcane archers aren't like Weapon masters - the use of bows, longswords and rapiers is something cutural in the elven race, the AA are some degrees above the majority elven people in tne use of a bow - to this they almost stop the study of the art (magic) except when in the use of a bow - so they will really prefer to use the bow they expended most of their time training to be so good, but this doesn't means they will stop use their other weapons - in my view the most important thing when considering the AA is the elf or half-elf link with the elven culture - cause the PC is essencially elven.

Anyway this is about Weapon Masters - we better keep the essence of the tread to not let the main aspect go away -

[Nim_White]

My picture of the weapon master is epitomised by Kyuzo, the character in Kurosawa's Seven Samurai. He is 'more interested in his art' than in fighting bandits to protect poor villagers, until he is driven into killing another samurai, then he changes his mind.
He has a 'solo' scene in the film where he goes off to a quiet glade and just practises his 'quick draw' technique with the katana. I recommend him as a role model .....

[eraldur]

The monk, the red avenger, the drunken master and the master samurai all harness Ki energy as part of their martial disciplines; they are not, however, the only such persons to do so. Some pursue the study of ki by mastering a single melee weapon. To unite this weapon of choice with the body, to make them one, to use the weapon as naturally and without thought as nay other limb, is the goal of weapon master.

Monks who follow this path may choose unarmed attacks or kama, nunchak, siangham or other three-section staff as their weapon of choice. In order to gain any of the special abilities of the weapon master, you must use your weapon of choice. Once chosen, the weapon of choice cannot be later changed.

This does not mean that, if your weapon of choice is the longsword, you can only use the longsword you owned when you first became a weapon master. The only material requirement for the class is a masterwork version of your weapon. It means you can use any masterwork longword and gain the benefits of the weapon master. If you use any other weapon, you can use none of the special abilities of the prestige class.


Sources: Sword and fist, p.38, 39.

--------

The Weaponmaster forges a spiritual link in every facet of his training with his weapon. Through his experiences, the blade becomes as much a part of him as any other part of his body. He will even forge his own weapon at times, but that isn't necessary.

A weaponmaster in my opinion would not be learned in battle tactics, but in the use of his blade to the fullest possible degree. A weaponmaster not only hones his skills with a blade, but hones his body in order to best use his weapon of choice. He is a master of balance and timing, being able to position himself so there is very little flaw or opportunity in his style.

He has even gained the ability to channel his bodily energy through spiritual and physical focus, being able to execute maneuvers and strikes with lightning fast precision otherwise thought impossible. The mind has also been trained, and the weaponmaster can anticipate flaws in his opponent's style to the point where it is almost reflexive in combat (Ki critical).

[Talus]

How would you do a more western style weapon master though? Where the culture has no knowledge of Ki, nor strong traditions of monks.? Everything here seems to be directed at your Kara-tur style of weapon master.

What about the Cormyrian Weapon Master? He would not have the knowledge of Ki I would think, does this mean all weapon masters need to have that cultural background or training from one that does?

[eraldur]

talus said:

How would you do a more western style weapon master though? Where the culture has no knowledge of Ki, nor strong traditions of monks.? Everything here seems to be directed at your Kara-tur style of weapon master.

What about the Cormyrian Weapon Master? He would not have the knowledge of Ki I would think, does this mean all weapon masters need to have that cultural background or training from one that does?

What compasses into being the "Ki" is simply that energy that comes from that link the WM has with his Weapon, the being at one with it, the being so inseparable from it, to being able to channel raw energy from perfect flow of his limb and weapon; being precise "Ki critical".

While the Kara-turian WM might be more at one with his spirituality, and knowledgeable of the concept of "ki", the "Western" Weapon master wouldn't necessarily be aware of it, although he would achieve it if that strong link is there.

Weapon Mastery could be seen as a modern "martial art" - it might have been born in the East however, the teachings might have spread across the lands through time, the techniques adapted by Weapon Masters having brought them to their homelands to something slightly different, but there's something that never changes, and it is the "Ki, the "Spirituality" - the means by which the Weapon Master will achieve that "Ki" (Rituals, methods of training which will differ varying character's cultural anchor points) are the ones that will be different, it depends of your character and as long as he Roleplays that mystique part of being at "one with the weapon" - mind and body.

---

Here's the Kara-Turian description of the Weapon Master (Kensei):

For weapon masters (kensei), the perfection of ki is found in the mastery of a single melee weapon. Weapon masters seek to unite this weapon of choice with the body, to make them one, and to use the weapon as naturally and without thought as any other limb. Weapon masters are most often fighters or samurai, since the sheer number of feats required to qualify deters many other characters . Weapon masters are not trained in the samurai schools of Rokugan, but individual fighters or samurai, under the tutelage of a more experienced master, may adopt the weapon master prestige class.

Source: Oriental adventures

[Nim_White]

Dm Hemlock makes a good point. It seems to me that in western mediaeval culture the emphasis for a dedicated warrior tended to be on the use a knight made of his weapons, rather than the weapon itself. Consider Sir Nigel, in Conan Doyle's two novels, who at one point in a siege is nearly blinded by a woman defender who he believes it would be unworthy to attack, but who throws a bag of lime into his face.

In fact I can think of no tradition in western culture which made a fetish of a weapon, or even a style of fighting, other than, perhaps, the longbow. Having said which, Faerun is not mediaeval western europe, so there is no reason why such a tradition should not somehow have been established there.

On a parallel line (and I am not trying to hi-jack the thread, honest!) I have been able to find very little about bards in such FR source material as I have been able to research. So I have made up a bit of background for my own bard character which I hope does not contradict what little information there is, and maybe this is what needs be done for weaponmasters? Perhaps someone could create such a background for consideration and approval by the DMs, for promulgation so that there would be a common background for WMs roleplay?

[SlothfulCat]

I always treated my weaponsmasters as simply that, masters of their chosen weapon. When using it they are so at home the movement is effortless, thoughtless. Almost instinctual. Like riding a bike gets to be.

You start off with your weapon training wheels...

then most people stop where they can ride the bike without falling over... (warrior)

some take it a little further so they can ride without hands, maybe pop a wheelie, (Fighter)

then you have BMXers... your Weaponmasters. Its not that they have some supernatural power, its talent, training, more training, commitment, and skill.

Or at least thats how I look at a Westernish Weaponmaster, its a matter of skill, already knowing where your opponent is going to go (Say experience points?), and how to counter and turn their attack into your advantage. I see an Easternish Weaponmaster of more turning it into a spiritual "zone" in a fight.

Suppose my best onetoone comparison for a Western Weaponmaster would be the "blademaster" portrayal in the wheel of time - minus the void and the flame speel.

[TermaForever]

avieupator said:

Suppose my best onetoone comparison for a Western Weaponmaster would be the "blademaster" portrayal in the wheel of time - minus the void and the flame speel.

Don't know if I would agree on that front...somehow the blademasters in WOT struck me as a bit Easternish...I mean you can only see someone perform "Crane giving Fish the Finger" so many times before you think they are hitting the sake hard.

Still I kind of agree with the rest of what you said. Its like anything else: you practice enough you are going to attain a level of mastery unrivaled except by someone who has been practicing more. Granted it doesn't hurt to have someone show you the ropes, but it isn't necessary either.

[moulinous]

talus said:

How would you do a more western style weapon master though? Where the culture has no knowledge of Ki, nor strong traditions of monks.? Everything here seems to be directed at your Kara-tur style of weapon master.

What about the Cormyrian Weapon Master? He would not have the knowledge of Ki I would think, does this mean all weapon masters need to have that cultural background or training from one that does?

Conan was a weaopn master if you watch the movies, superb with the sword, knights of solminia in my book would be close as they train with their swords handed down for generations like Sturm Brightblade. I think a western weaponmaster would train much the same way except he would not call ki or what not, he would refer to it as his luck or such. Like the old gunslingers or the Rifleman. The old west gunslingers are actully a good example of westren ideals of weapon masters. Maybe even a knife thrower in PnP would be a good one, or a barbariab battle axe weilder or wulfgar's reverence for his warhammer....Drizzit and his scimitars...Artemis and his longsword....

[Munroe]

Monks kind of get shafted on this class in NWN.

According to Sword and Fist (page 39):

Weapon Master The monk, the red avenger, the drunken master, and the master samurai all harness ki energy as part of their martial disciplines; they are not, however, the only such persons to do so. Some pursue the study of ki by mastering a single melee weapon. To unite this weapon of choice with the body, to make them one, to use the weapon as naturally and without thought as any other limb, is the goal of the weapon master. Monks who follow this path may choose unarmed attacks or the kama, nunchaku, siangham (see the Player's Handbook, Chapter 7) or the three-section staff (see Chapter 5 of this book) as their weapon of choice. In order to gain any of the special abilities of the weapon master class, you must use your weapon of choice. Once chosen, the weapon of choice cannot be later changed. This does not mean that, if your weapon of choice is the longsword, you can only use the longsword you owned when you first became a weapon master. The only material requirement for the class is a masterwork version of your weapon. It means you can use any masterwork longsword and gain the benefits of the weapon master. If you use any other weapon, you can use none of the special abilities of the prestige class. Requirements To qualify to become a weapon master, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria: Base Attack Bonus: +5 Intimidate: 4 ranks Proficiency: With your weapon of choice. Weapon: Masterwork weapon (unless unarmed). Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Expertise, Weapon Focus, Whirlwind Attack, DEX 13+. Class Skills [Omitted] Class Features [Descriptions, which were purely mechanical, are omitted.] Ki Damage Increased Multiplier Superior Weapon Focus Superior Combat Reflexes Ki Critical Ki Whirlwind Multiclass note: Monk characters can freely multiclass with this class. In other words, you can give your monk PC a weapon master level, then return to the monk class for your next level, take a weapon master level after that, and so on.

My omissions are in straight brackets. []

Originally posted in a more recent thread but should be added here as well:
Note that monk multiclassing on FRC is by monastic order so the free multiclassing note is not actually applicable.

[TermaForever]

I always thought a monk/weapon master would be cool. But neverwinter has a good way of ruining perfectly good classes...but I suppose that is the sacrifice of limited memory on a computer.

[Manshin]

Well, I disagree with the examples provided for western weapon masters for the most part. To me, these are fighters with weapon focus, weapon specialization and improved Crit. As close as you can get to being a weapon master, without all the "ki" and spiritual connection stuff. There is a reason why the weapon master class originated and was taken from the oriental adventuers campain.

However, I do think their are some good examples... and dont get me wrong, conan is close because of his love for the sword of atlantis... but lets face it, i dont think he had the intelligence score for WM. (movie... not the book, I havent read the books) Definatly a "great cleaver" not a "whirlwind attacker."

The best examples I could think of would be Enugo Mantoia from the princess bride... now there was a weapon master. He had his fathers beloved sword, he trained with it constantly, he forged a bond with it, and it was an extension of his arm. (though he was still beatin by the cursed fighter/rogue! Just like in NWN, curse crippling strike!)

The Knights Templar. This one is seriously arguable, but these guys were the closest thing to kung-fu in Europe. They were monastic order dedicated to martial perfection.

As for the three steps of getting better at fighting, warrior, fighter, weapon master... I disagree. Here is why. A weapon master is a weapon master from level one. The training, the mentality, the monk-like approach are what allows him to become a weapon master. The differance is akin to a master at painting houses, and a master at painting portraits. The training starts early, but are two completely seperate paths.

Shinman Musashi, arguably the greatest sword fighter and duelest to ever have lived believed "ki" was really something closer to a zone where you dont need to focus, you dont need to try. Your body and your mind are seperate entities, each acting independantly of the other. Your body acts and moves of its own accord in a state known as "no-thought" in the book of five rings, leaving the mind free and calm for strategy and planning. This is called "Void Mastery." To me, that is a weapon master's Ki ability. The ability to enter a zone where your moves are as close to perfect as you are going to get because you dont have conflict of body and spirit interfeiring with true skill.

Whereas a fighter with weapon spec, focus, and improved crit might gain strength from anger, or emotion, allowing him to pound through his enemies defenses, to a weapon master, these things are a hinderance. Every time emotion clouds him, his mind and body are thrown out of balance and no longer work independatly. He looses the "Void dicipline," or the "Ki. "

Also, according to the text, a weapon master is required to have a masterwork sword, but can interchange his weapons of the same type freely. This is kind of like the girl who wanted to wear the "minium 13 peices of flare" *mopey face* The WM who dedicates to a single weapon and knows every contour of it's grip, ever flaw in its blade, the exact balance, everything. This is they guy with 47 pieces of flair. Do you waaana just do the minimum? People can get a burger anywhere... they come to chochkeys for the attitude, and the atmosphere... whoa!! Sorry, carried away!

Laurk

[Nim_White]

It's some time since I read any of the Conan books, but I'm pretty sure he would not class as a weaponmaster. He uses any large damage dealing weapon he happens to have handy. The emphasis is always on strength and speed, not supreme skill with any particular weapon.

[moulinous]

no, you can master your weapon but make sure to play it properly and make it a deep dedication to that weapon...food for thought....maybe make a weapon master from here on out hafta be the favored weapon of their deity? just a question before you all jump on me....

[Laurk]

Lets try not to loose the flavor of this thread to a flame war. This thread is simply about pointing out that there are differances between a fighter and a weapon master. RP those differances to the best of your ability.

[Munroe]

moulinous said:

no, you can master your weapon but make sure to play it properly and make it a deep dedication to that weapon...food for thought....maybe make a weapon master from here on out hafta be the favored weapon of their deity? just a question before you all jump on me....

Why would a weapon master specialize in the favoured weapon of their deity? Weapon masters aren't a divine class.

Technically a requirement of Divine Champion is that their weapon focus for qualifying for the class is supposed to be in the favoured weapon of their deity. NWN's Champion of Torm (the main difference being that Divine Champion is only a 5 level class) does not impose this restriction, likely because Bioware basically sidelined deities completely in their official implementation. We haven't required that CoT have weapon focus in their deity's favoured weapon. If we did, all those divine champions of Tempus would need to have Weapon Focus [Battleaxe] where so many of them like the longsword, the greatsword, the bastardsword...

[moulinous]

That way it would justify a western weaponmaster is all...personally, i think all those CoT should have to weapon focus in their deitys fav weapon....seems only natural. Figured divine energy or spirtual energy would be the way a western weapon master would explain ki is all....

[Nevajas]

*Digs around in his pocket, finds two cents.*

Just because your culture has no knowledge of “ki” doesn’t mean you aren’t using it, especially in the Forgotten Realms setting. Why would gods like Illmater, Shar and Sune have monastic orders dedicated to their names if the Faerun was purely a “western” influence continent? If all of Faerun’s influences were strictly of the European nature, there wouldn’t be an Amn or Mulhorand.

Because of that, I’ve always felt that the names of abilities (and even spells) were just the most common ones, but not the only ones. Stunning fist could easily be called “blinding strike” in the Sun Soul order and “freezing touch” to the Long Death and still be the same thing as far as the rules go. Not every weapon master is going to call his most devastating attack “ki strike,” or even call himself a weapon master for that matter. The flavored text of the abilities isn’t what’s important, in my opinion.

And if you’re looking for “western” weapon masters, consider figures whose weapons are nearly as famous at they are. From old lore you have Roland and Durandal, the past few decades have had Prince Valient and the Singing Sword, and most recent we’ve had Roy Greenhilt and his family’s sword. (Go, Order of the Stick! )

[grehmalkin]

mezereon said:

Dm Hemlock makes a good point. It seems to me that in western mediaeval culture the emphasis for a dedicated warrior tended to be on the use a knight made of his weapons, rather than the weapon itself...

In fact I can think of no tradition in western culture which made a fetish of a weapon, or even a style of fighting, other than, perhaps, the longbow.

Just my small knowledge on the matter...

There are many works of the 'western Martial arts' by masters of the Mediaeval period dealing with specific swords not the longbow...... 'Liechtenauer, Egenolff, Talhoffer, Agrippa, Marozzo, Carranza, George Silver, Joseph Swetnam (I have actually had opportunity to study with a maestro of Swetnam it is ballet with rapier and dagger .. and no such thing as parry...) Cappo Ferro and Joachim Meyer.. to name the most prominent...

Mediaeval European sword skills were a true martial art... modern fencing with foil, epee, sabre is removed very far from it's martial origins. In the renaissance "Art of Defence"... A "swordman" was a student of the craft ( a particular weapon) called a scholar... Schools of defense from the period did not survive the introduction of gunpowder... however, their were many schools with 'masters'.
As a 'Western Martial Art' Mediaeval swordmanship greatly differs from its Asian counterpart and cannot be approached from the same perspective... Western Medieval combat was not untutored or defunct of mastery... it is not artless or sans technique... the masters from the period... have works that are still being deciphered by Maestro's in Europe and America...

And of course there are many ideas and principles common universally to all forms of combat... but there are conceptual and technical differences between western and eastern... For game mechanics we may say they 'are the same'... but surely a dwarven WM and say and Elven WM have a different approach to Mastery... unless trained by the same WM... Also most Maestro's of a weapon are not so skilled to teach another in weapon mastery of a different weapon...

Most people know every thing they do about Mediaeval swordmanship from movies and slapstick renfairs.. and *sighs* ....

Please check out a book called Renaissance Swordmanship and Medieval Swordmanship by John Clements


*Takes long drink and passes out after so much typing*

[The Supreme Watcher]

I'm a level 4 weapon master now, and I believe I've taken a different approach to the Weapon Master mentality than many other characters, in that I did not use a purely Kara-Turan approach to the attunement to a weapon.

Garum Glandash is a Weapon Master. He is the consumate soldier, albeit a lone one. As a child his brother and he fled their home to live on the streets of Waterdeep with nothing but Garum's sword to scrape out their living.

Training with his sword, Garum became actually quite good with it, and that can be seen in him today. But over time, his sword became less a tool and more a part of him: he does not ever let it out of his reach, he sleeps with it next to his bed, and practices with it whenever he can. Also, whenever there is free-time given, he will lovingly polish it, almost as if it was a high-maintenance lover.

When he came to Cormyr, Garum was surprised at how good other swordsmen were in comparison to him - especially a half-orc named Vrulo Myskada. Garum's natural aversion to half-orcs, coupled with Vrulo's exponentially greater skill of arms, drove Garum to research, train, study, modify, quicken, and become more accurate while wielding his sword - a process marked by hard training against enemies that many would call him an idiot for fighting: he has a penchant for fighting orc warriors who are much better than he is, for continuing even a fight that seems losing, and for coming out of the carnage, if not unscathed, then at least living.

Pushing himself to the limit to perfect his craft - swordsmanship - Garum took up a mantle that befits a man of the blade, that being Mercenary. He wields his sword for his living, and knows that it is the only thing separating him from a grisly death at the hands of who knows what monster or bandit. That said, he has allowed his sword to become the closest thing to him, and even his friends realize that Garum and his sword are one being.

Through endless practice, tireless devotion, and infinite hardship, Garum has become an otherworldly swordsman - few others can manage the feats of swordsmanship that he can. This has made him a more fearsome opponent (resulting in an increase in his Intimidate skill), a more personally secure man, and in the end, a more dependable friend and ally.

The search for the perfect technique, however, continues on in Garum's restless mind: he will not stop training, practicing, and adventuring, reading, observing, and questioning, until he has become a flawless swordsman - a whirling dervish of broadsword and skill.







That's just a short piece to describe how my Weapon Master is connected to his weapon - it is not a matter of discipline or monastic training, it is not the fruit of hours spent meditating holding his sword and the smoke-and-mirrors of monastic life. Until recently, Garum's swordsmanship might not have been the product of reading and researching and conversing, but it is now. Until then, (until he was level 9), it was as if he were a basketball player - he didn't get better by philosophizing on the subject, he practiced and played the game.

Now he's sort of become a Michael Jordan of battle, a Shakespeare of swordsmanship, a Hellen Keller of killing things.... no, wait that's a bad example.