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Druids
May 26, 2019 12:50:19 GMT -5
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Post by mandene on May 26, 2019 12:50:19 GMT -5
A strange thing is that some of the rules got softened with time. For example, I read in an old DnD source, that priest of middle ages took a vow to never draw blood - DnD implemented it by giving priests/clerics bludgeoning weapons instead of cutting/slicing/piercing. However what has survived is just that - there is no rule against a cleric taking the martial feat. And nobody remembers why the bludgeoning weapons instead, for example, simple weapons.
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Druids
May 27, 2019 10:33:15 GMT -5
Post by Animayhem on May 27, 2019 10:33:15 GMT -5
I do not mind the armor restriction but come on... Druids aside from Elves can not use a long or short bow? Hello? Bows and arrows are made from wood and the tips can be made from flint which I believe is found n the surface or in shallow digging. Feathers can be taken from molting birds. I mean slings bullets are metal? Darts are metal?
I read where is possible (can not remember where) the druid class script can be tweaked so they can take the martial feat as a druid. Not sure if just bows can be added.
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Druids
May 27, 2019 11:42:58 GMT -5
Post by FlyingMidget on May 27, 2019 11:42:58 GMT -5
The armour restrictions are as much about encasing a druid in worked metal as they are about the faith & traditions of the druid (druid is a very heavy faith & tradition based class) as well as the oaths each druid takes. Mielikki's spiritual oaths are more lenient, allowing her druids to wear armour that her rangers would normally wear that the average druid would be unable to (things like metal medium armours & shields), likewise many of her druids multi-class as rangers so it helps them in their usual jobs. A PnP druid (that isn't a follower of Mielikki) can actually wear metal armours, they just give up all spellcasting and supernatural class features (including wildshapes, elemental shapes, etc, etc) for a 24 hour period from the time they take it off. But we don't have a system in place for that to restrict such features for a RL day so just stick to wearing normal druid equipment unless you get a DM's ok to do so at the time.
Animayhem, the weapons that druids get are traditional weapons wielded by druids, if they want to train in something else (including a bow), there is always multi-classing to do so, Mielikki druids often multi-class with rangers and there's nothing stopping a druid becoming a "fighter" to show that they have spent the time training in less traditional weapons, taking a level in druid is in part training with their traditional weapons not weapons that they cannot normally use. It's not a script that enforces such and while I know how to make the changes to allow druids to wear such I wouldn't want that and I'm doubtful that the DM team would change such a restriction on a heavily tradition based class. As for why arcanes magic isn't considered part of the natural order makes sense if you consider in Faerun, arcane stems from the weave, separate from the forces of nature. They can intermingle, but are from two separate sources, nature stemming from life and arcane stemming from the weave. I only quick skimmed the recent messages in this topic, so I might be missing a bit of context on some of the arguments I've not had the free time for it in a while, but I wanted to take a moment to point out that not just Arcane Magic is from the Weave. Divine Magic that is granted by gods is also using the Weave as it's conduit, in a way one could think of the blessings bestowed upon divine casters (druids, clerics, etc), as having the knowledge of how to perform such magic given to them as they speak the associated prayer to further their patron's faith. Druids themselves are divine casters, their magic is given to them by their patron deity, it's why druids require a patron god that supports druids, it isn't magic acquired from the ideal of nature as it can be in other D&D settings.
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Post by uriziel on May 27, 2019 12:44:53 GMT -5
As for why arcanes magic isn't considered part of the natural order makes sense if you consider in Faerun, arcane stems from the weave, separate from the forces of nature. They can intermingle, but are from two separate sources, nature stemming from life and arcane stemming from the weave. I only quick skimmed the recent messages in this topic, so I might be missing a bit of context on some of the arguments I've not had the free time for it in a while, but I wanted to take a moment to point out that not just Arcane Magic is from the Weave. Divine Magic that is granted by gods is also using the Weave as it's conduit, in a way one could think of the blessings bestowed upon divine casters (druids, clerics, etc), as having the knowledge of how to perform such magic given to them as they speak the associated prayer to further their patron's faith. Druids themselves are divine casters, their magic is given to them by their patron deity, it's why druids require a patron god that supports druids, it isn't magic acquired from the ideal of nature as it can be in other D&D settings. I said druidic magic stems from life because it does, sort of. It comes from nature deities who only exist because life does. The reason Arcane magic would be seen as unnatural is because unlike divine magic, it only stems from the weave through manipulation of it (with exception to divine casters with magic domain), without a deific source. It's sort of the same thing with wizards. Why can't they wear armor? Oh they perform delicate gestures. Logic! ...except no, it's not, or at least the logic ends prematurely. If these gestures include playing Twister and doing complex interpretive poledancing, fine, I can see it. But exactly what platemail have you been wearing that restricts hand gestures? It's really only gauntlets that do that. And gauntlets have been separated from platemail in our game. Thus, logic: The only reason wizards can't wear armor is, we don't want them too. It's a game issue, not a 'realism' issue. Fantasyism? Ehh, 'nother topic. I could point out that in the very first D&D rules, Elves used magic just like a wizard, but could wear any armor...it's not about the magic. In fact we've come full circle at this point, to where it's okay again. One simple feat and bam, magic in armor, off you go Mister Gish. So for my money, no, druids should not be okay with oil spills, and should not be digging mines. They should not wear metal armor, though carapace and wood analogues are fine. And they really should only have cold-beaten metal items made of native metals, which are those found on the surface, as nuggets. This is not because of the intrinsic properties metal, but because I associate the process of mining and smelting and forging with Industry, which is anathema to Nature imagery. It's all about the imagery to me, and nothing else. Problems should be solved by using magical rapport with plants, animals, and weather, not by technology. "Nature" is like art...you just know it when you see it. If you've been in full plate, you should know that gauntlets and gloves can and often are seperate devices. Clamshells go over gloves pretty commonly and I've had gauntlets that would be uncomfortable and pinchy without leather gloves underneath. Also, while full plate isn't as restrictive as D&D states (Nor as heavy but that's with most D&D weights), they did get it right because armor doesn't mean you -can't- cast spells, merely you've got a chance to make a mistake. Even full plates only 45% which is pretty generous because if you're wearing most gauntlets I've seen and try to do anything like finely detailed finger or wrist movements with them on, it's gonna be a mess. Also, like I said before, I understand that some people may not like it, but there are deities where they would prohibit the use of metal armor, like Sylvanus. There are also deities who aren't as primal who wouldn't care. It'd all come down to whether or not your deity is alright with the whole metal armor deal. Last also, druids aren't all fluffy caretakers of trees. Many are eco terrorists and other kinds where they seek to cause havoc per their deities instructions (Talona, Umberlee, Talos, Set, Malar). Some are gonna root for oil spills, blowing stuff up, spreading disease and all sorts of messed up stuff.
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Druids
May 27, 2019 12:52:47 GMT -5
Post by Animayhem on May 27, 2019 12:52:47 GMT -5
The armour restrictions are as much about encasing a druid in worked metal as they are about the faith & traditions of the druid (druid is a very heavy faith & tradition based class) as well as the oaths each druid takes. Mielikki's spiritual oaths are more lenient, allowing her druids to wear armour that her rangers would normally wear that the average druid would be unable to (things like metal medium armours & shields), likewise many of her druids multi-class as rangers so it helps them in their usual jobs. A PnP druid (that isn't a follower of Mielikki) can actually wear metal armours, they just give up all spellcasting and supernatural class features (including wildshapes, elemental shapes, etc, etc) for a 24 hour period from the time they take it off. But we don't have a system in place for that to restrict such features for a RL day so just stick to wearing normal druid equipment unless you get a DM's ok to do so at the time.
Animayhem, the weapons that druids get are traditional weapons wielded by druids, if they want to train in something else (including a bow), there is always multi-classing to do so, Mielikki druids often multi-class with rangers and there's nothing stopping a druid becoming a "fighter" to show that they have spent the time training in less traditional weapons, taking a level in druid is in part training with their traditional weapons not weapons that they cannot normally use. It's not a script that enforces such and while I know how to make the changes to allow druids to wear such I wouldn't want that and I'm doubtful that the DM team would change such a restriction on a heavily tradition based class. As for why arcanes magic isn't considered part of the natural order makes sense if you consider in Faerun, arcane stems from the weave, separate from the forces of nature. They can intermingle, but are from two separate sources, nature stemming from life and arcane stemming from the weave. I only quick skimmed the recent messages in this topic, so I might be missing a bit of context on some of the arguments I've not had the free time for it in a while, but I wanted to take a moment to point out that not just Arcane Magic is from the Weave. Divine Magic that is granted by gods is also using the Weave as it's conduit, in a way one could think of the blessings bestowed upon divine casters (druids, clerics, etc), as having the knowledge of how to perform such magic given to them as they speak the associated prayer to further their patron's faith. Druids themselves are divine casters, their magic is given to them by their patron deity, it's why druids require a patron god that supports druids, it isn't magic acquired from the ideal of nature as it can be in other D&D settings. Playing Devil's Advocate here. I think the point myself and others may be making is why should Elves who are druids can use weapons outside the "druid limits" They are not penalized for their race but other races are. They should be subjected to the limits of druid weapons as well. They are restricted to armor of druids. It gives the impression that if you are not an Elf or Half elf you are less as a druid. Pure humans need to take a class mechanically speaking to gain martial feat, I think fighter 1? Granted if so and only one level they can not get epic druid to level 22.
I believe (not a scripter myself) the 2da script set can allow a modification of weapon proficiency. Not sure how difficult it would be and if so I realize not a priority.
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Post by FlyingMidget on May 27, 2019 13:04:46 GMT -5
Playing Devil's Advocate here. I think the point myself and others may be making is why should Elves who are druids can use weapons outside the "druid limits" They are not penalized for their race but other races are. They should be subjected to the limits of druid weapons as well. They are restricted to armor of druids. It gives the impression that if you are not an Elf or Half elf you are less as a druid. Pure humans need to take a class mechanically speaking to gain martial feat, I think fighter 1? Granted if so and only one level they can not get epic druid to level 22.
I believe (not a scripter myself) the 2da script set can allow a modification of weapon proficiency. Not sure how difficult it would be and if so I realize not a priority.
Why should a human druid have +1 skill point per level, a bonus feat and not have a negative constitution score like elves do? Humans druids are not being penalized by not having elven racial weapon proficiency, they simply have different racial perks. Elves still need to multi-class if they want to use a exotic or martial weapon beyond their limited racial proficiency. Humans, Halflings, Gnomes, Dwarves and Half-Orc druids are not any less druids because they only can only use their traditional druid weapons without multi-classing, their races have different perks and lore is all.
They aren't restricted weapons like armour is restricted, they are just the only weapons a druid can learn on a druid level up and a druid character can pursue learning a different weapon if it makes sense for their character to do so through multi-classing.
PS, Half-Elves don't get elven weapon proficiency.
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Post by malclave on May 27, 2019 13:14:40 GMT -5
I think the point myself and others may be making is why should Elves who are druids can use weapons outside the "druid limits" They are not penalized for their race but other races are. They should be subjected to the limits of druid weapons as well. They are restricted to armor of druids. It gives the impression that if you are not an Elf or Half elf you are less as a druid. Pure humans need to take a class mechanically speaking to gain martial feat, I think fighter 1? Granted if so and only one level they can not get epic druid to level 22. Any other class would do, as long as it's taken at a level which gives a feat. I do agree, though, that there doesn't seem to be a good reason to prevent a druid from taking a weapon proficiency feat (any of them, not just martial).
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Druids
May 27, 2019 13:36:35 GMT -5
Post by Animayhem on May 27, 2019 13:36:35 GMT -5
Playing Devil's Advocate here. I think the point myself and others may be making is why should Elves who are druids can use weapons outside the "druid limits" They are not penalized for their race but other races are. They should be subjected to the limits of druid weapons as well. They are restricted to armor of druids. It gives the impression that if you are not an Elf or Half elf you are less as a druid. Pure humans need to take a class mechanically speaking to gain martial feat, I think fighter 1? Granted if so and only one level they can not get epic druid to level 22.
I believe (not a scripter myself) the 2da script set can allow a modification of weapon proficiency. Not sure how difficult it would be and if so I realize not a priority.
Why should a human druid have +1 skill point per level, a bonus feat and not have a negative constitution score like elves do? Humans druids are not being penalized by not having elven racial weapon proficiency, they simply have different racial perks. Elves still need to multi-class if they want to use a exotic or martial weapon beyond their limited racial proficiency. Humans, Halflings, Gnomes, Dwarves and Half-Orc druids are not any less druids because they only can only use their traditional druid weapons without multi-classing, their races have different perks and lore is all.
They aren't restricted weapons like armour is restricted, they are just the only weapons a druid can learn on a druid level up and a druid character can pursue learning a different weapon if it makes sense for their character to do so through multi-classing.
PS, Half-Elves don't get elven weapon proficiency.
Ok thanks for clarification. That means all other races are penalized if they wish to use a longbow or short bow and be a druid. Which in my opinion not realistic but the way things are currently.
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Druids
May 27, 2019 13:39:20 GMT -5
Post by brionikos on May 27, 2019 13:39:20 GMT -5
New here, 1st post - Fist of all, here is the 3.5e ruling from WoC on Druids and non-Druidic weapon usage: archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731aarchive.wizards.com/dnd/files/MainFAQv06272003.zipPg. 14: In 3.5, it appears that druids lose their abilities only when using metal armor or shields, but not when wielding nondruid weapons (as was previously true). Is this the case? For instance, could a barbarian/druid wield a greataxe without losing his abilities?
Beginning with version 3.5 of the D&D rules, druids have no restriction regarding which weapons they can wield. A druid could wield a greatsword, halberd, or repeating crossbow without any ill effect (other than the normal penalty for nonproficiency). This is a specific change from previous versions of the game.
Druids can use any weapon they are proficient in without penalty, pretty clear. As to the why only elf druids can use bows and swords, that same question could be asked of elf wizards, sorcerers, clerics, etc... druid (and others) are not prohibited from using weapons outside of their allowed list, itis only that they are not proficient in use of weapons outside of their lists. The real issue is a NWN limitation, not a DnD limitation - In a table session, any class can pick up any weapon and use it, they just suffer a -4 usage, in NWN it is impossible to do so. Another NWN limitation is not allowing Druids to take Martial Weapon Prof. as a feat. If that could be somehow scripted as an allowable feat, all of this would be moot, and would then certainly be "fair" for all non-Elf druids (and other classes). And in NWN Martial Weapon Feat is a much bigger deal than at the table top, wherein you select the feat and then select ONE weapon. To adress druid weapon proficiency directly, the list isn't supposed to be prohibitive (again, an NWN limitation), but just what the druidic orders have focused on... elves get elf weapon proficency because of their background, they have spent decades honing those skills prior to picking a class, and prior to becoming an adventurer. Humans don't focus for decades, but they get a bonus feat and bonus SP, meaning Humans can (if the NWN weapon feat script were adjusted) use that bonus feat for Martial weapons and then know more weapons than an elf. In the end, DnD is all flavor, not logic.
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Druids
May 27, 2019 15:07:29 GMT -5
Post by Animayhem on May 27, 2019 15:07:29 GMT -5
Longbows and Short Bows are not race specific. Any race can learn and use them and use them well. The one thing that stops many players playing non-Elven druids is that they have to take another class to get the use and then go back to druid. To me not being able to use such is an rp immersion breaker. You play an elf you can become epic druid at 21. You play a non-elf epic druid at 22.
It is what it is unless the builder's here wish to modify that script to remove the penalty. To my knowledge, as far as continual interactions I have only seen one pure human druid.
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