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Post by Keetena on Jun 16, 2005 23:10:42 GMT -5
I do hear from some players that this is heresy and almost an ultimate sin... and since one alerted that was a dm who said I will not question his authority, but before we consider this something to be punished by law I wish make some considerations. In our middle age if you even kissed the same sex you should be probably burned in stakes after someone inspected your private parts for demonical possession, here we walk in a land where dragon winged girls walk in public, where sorcerers aren't killed for cast spells, and where a lot of humanoids are in our ways (well at least in most nations like Cormyr), so I see no reason to so harsh judgement in such marriages unless obviously is a facet of a character... but punishable by laws!? We're in a politheyst society, in greek it was common homossexualism for example, and this was in real world Earth. I do think that this is Faerun and so shall not be compared with Earth middle age, in Faerun we have real succubus, real demons and real evil to inquisitors fight, not fake witches to be burned to control population, I do think that code laws to most of the nations in Faerun shall not preview this in their articles... this is my opinion and I hope the message caught some atencion.
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Post by soulfien on Jun 16, 2005 23:43:11 GMT -5
I have to agree. In Ancient Roman Society, it was common for men to seek the company of other men on the side while married to a woman. It wasn't really considered homosexuality- it was just accepted. Women were thrown together and usually consorted with eachother in very familiar manners.
Even royal families would partake in incest simply to have royal children rather than marry a peasant.
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Post by Spooks on Jun 16, 2005 23:48:11 GMT -5
Hmm... Yah, wasnt like... Da Vinci... and Ceasar... and William Shakespeare... and a ton of other people like Homosexual on the side?
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Post by Hackmaster on Jun 16, 2005 23:53:14 GMT -5
I would have to agree with Keetena here. I do not know the Forgotten Realms laws on this but seeings how so many things seem to be tolerated within Cormyr this does not seem like an issue to the goverment. To an individual religion perhaps but I think it should only be that way if the religion has something that would make you believe you would be that way. Hopefully one never brings thier own beliefs into the game. When meeting people from all over the world from different cultures and different backgrounds, beleifs so on and so forth. We come to a world where a certain amount of tolerance is needed and given. So unless the staff make it law in Cormyr that it is an abomination then only individuals may think so and if they are lawful or neutral It is unlikely they will take the law into thier own hands. Unless they are fanatical about it.
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racestark
Proven Member
R-E-A-D-A-B-O-Okay!
Posts: 241
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Post by racestark on Jun 17, 2005 3:30:49 GMT -5
My whole arguement is passed on an Earthly view at history, religion, and culture, but here it goes.
Since Keetana said something about polytheism, there is not one polytheistic society that did not at least tolerate if not promote homosexuality. It wasn't until monotheism that it became an issue. If indivdual churches may curse it, that's fine, but in a world where a parton is worshipped and other gods are given prayers just to be appeased, it's kinda unrealistic to make a law against it, unless Cormyr is openly advocating one religion which is totally against it. But another thing to remember, homosexual relationships in those times NEVER led to any marriage. It was always some sort of bonding relationship (i.e. Spartans would often sleep with their bunkmate in the military because they could not expect one to die for someone they didn't love, students would often sleep with their teachers in ancient Greece as a sign of reverence and obedience to their philosophies) or it was a sign of cultural dominance (i.e. aged Romans would sleep with much younger boys. In fact, there was a huge scandal about Culigula sleeping with a young slave. It wasn't the fact that the Emperor had had relations with another man, but because he had allowed the slave to be the dominant one in the relationship that was so appalling to the Roman uppercrust). Putting all political issues aside, the issue of homosexuality back then is completely different compared to the issue of homosexuality now.
But that's just my two cents to give you an idea of what kinda world Cormyr MIGHT be in regards to this issue.
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Post by Keetena on Jun 17, 2005 4:38:36 GMT -5
I tried to recall one with marriage but I don't think that exhisted, cause of this I didn't mentioned marriage in our history... but still I don't think that this is a matter, since don't pleases see an Earth 2, and even in this proximity we are still in a completely different set of cultures.
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Misha Aogail
Old School
Player of: Torian Burrfoot, Misha, Whisper, and Oriana Gant
Posts: 324
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Post by Misha Aogail on Jun 17, 2005 6:52:50 GMT -5
Really, it just comes down to this:
Who are we to tell someone whom they can and cannot love?
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Post by MithrilBlade on Jun 17, 2005 8:16:55 GMT -5
I have to agree with Keetena here, we cannot really say that it is actually against law to be homosexual, actually there ARE many religions that at least have nothing against it (well even thought Graz'zt is demon I believe those who worship Sharess are also very open minded for it, as well as Sune propably).
We got to remember that if you look at books that is an issue that might arise quickly against the makers, it's very sensitive issue in real world, church have known to blackmail DnD already and well I believe they don't want to bother with issues like that. This is why you cannot find much "official" info of homosexuality, but I fail to see why it would be wrong if many other strange people can freely walk around.
As for marriage I believe any Sunite or Sharessian could have the ceremony.
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Post by Talus on Jun 17, 2005 8:45:32 GMT -5
Look up Lhiira in the Faithes and Pantheon book. Plus in the Novels i would say there has been many implied same sex relations especially among women.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Jun 17, 2005 9:14:39 GMT -5
Instead of a marriage why dont we call it a civil union ? HAHA I crack myself up. Personally I have never understood why you want to get married in a computer game, but hey, your character falls in love with another character then, even if it is outlawed, you two can still be in love, just not married. My opinion, I don't care.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Jun 17, 2005 11:03:57 GMT -5
To my knowledge no DM has said that same sex marriage, etc is against the laws of Cormyr/ the server. I agree wholeheartedly that people should be allowed to do what they want. One thing to bear in mind though is the fact that you never know who is on the other side of the conversation in a format such as NWN. While you are acting out marriages and *ahem* any activities that follow... bear in mind you could be talking to a 12 yr old boy when you thought you were talking to a 21 yr old consenting female. -Or- any other number of situations you care to imagine. Just please excercise extreme caution in regards to knowing who you are dealing with and use common sense.
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Post by Keetena on Jun 17, 2005 11:48:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarify, so if the player repeats such trheat, that in Cormyr such unions are prohibited and considered utterly heresy, I'll cordially remenber that he's saying for his own will or by the will of the character. But I must admit you remenbered a much sensitive thing - censorship - not about such marriages or involvments, today I think the time to banish homossexualism is already gone, but about everything that touchs mature audience and the risk about with who we are talking, nowadays I prefer let sex scenes in subtle ways, like 'let's just act if we are already having a sexual life without the need of roleplay the scene' - but sometimes I do roleplay even these aspects, but only if I have at least a good idea about at least the mental age of the player, so I usually talk in caracther and when in the chat room personally, some people can testimony the flood of personal messages I share in chat area before game when I'm driving my character to a possible intimate approach - ok, I'm not perfect, sometimes I erred LOL. But let's all think about this, and try avoid some offensive words or detailed violence, another important thing, I do prefer too not use things like rape, even if the server is open roleplay, cause this is a much delicate theme and I beg to my fellow players too, even the most evil ones avoid such thing - I say this cause I met three females characters who were raped IG in our server during the more or less 9 months here, and at least one player of these I know that probably isn't already 13 years old. Let's use good sense.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jun 17, 2005 12:01:20 GMT -5
The primary differance between Faerun and Earth when it comes to this issue is the Pantheon. Notice that when the Christians took over, and started pushing their views on everyone, they had only one god, who, apparently didnt want people to hump much of anything, let alone those who share a bit too much in common. Anyone who didnt agree with the view the catholics heald for their god was instantly fired up. The Greek's on the other hand, who were mono-theastic had a lot of variety in their beliefs, basically, there was a god to fit whatever personallity you wished. The same is true for Faerun. Not only was homosexuality accepted in ancient Greece, it was encouraged. A bond between two men on the battlefield was ideal. For what better reason do men fight then love? In a sense, the greatest warriors in all of history were gay. Alaxander the Great being chief. (A man who actually fought on the front lines of hundreds of battles with his men.)
Now, that is not to say that there isn't a religeon in Faerun who doesnt believe that people who want to hump weird stuff should be burned, the trouble is, what are they going to do about it? Unlike the Catholic church, the church of, oh... I dont know, the Martyr god Imyltar (I believe) which most resembles christianity, does not have the power to enforce this sort of thing, though I suppose they could have Paladin's to hunt down any gay people... but Good luck.
At anyrate, it would be fun to have some faith or another IC be homophobes who want to purge the world of gay people. HA. That would be a fun RP angle.
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Post by boogiedk on Jun 17, 2005 12:08:05 GMT -5
Many people will also do this in games just to stir a reaction , and if you that are confronted with it are against, the opportunity to throw insults like biggot and narrowminded at you . . I know cause it almost killed a guild I was playing in , in DaoC and when it was at the brink of destroying the guild she just left ´the guild and slandered the crap out of us amidst recruiting season.
Same sex marriage WILL undoubtedly be an OOC thing at one point or another as the persons RL stand towards it (religious, social background, etc etc ) will come forward . . So be carefull and considerate on both sides for and against when dealing with this , cause some people will take their RL POW with them into IC.
I have not once in the sourcematerial (PnP or otherwise) read ANY indications on same sex marriages are okay or prohibited in Cormyr so I guess DMs has "carte blanche" on this one . . .
Edit: WTF happened to my 60+ post count ?
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Jun 17, 2005 12:36:16 GMT -5
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Post by Spooks on Jun 17, 2005 13:55:50 GMT -5
Well why's it matter, I mean its not like we have any people who would be so ignorant as to bring belief's IG... such a thing would be Metagaming wouldnt it? And come one, FRC? have metagamers? HA!
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Jun 17, 2005 14:27:48 GMT -5
Well why's it matter, I mean its not like we have any people who would be so ignorant as to bring belief's IG... such a thing would be Metagaming wouldnt it? And come one, FRC? have metagamers? HA! Oh the joys of transparent sarcasm.
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Post by prophyet on Jun 17, 2005 15:10:18 GMT -5
The primary differance between Faerun and Earth when it comes to this issue is the Pantheon. Notice that when the Christians took over, and started pushing their views on everyone, they had only one god, who, apparently didnt want people to hump much of anything, let alone those who share a bit too much in common. Anyone who didnt agree with the view the catholics heald for their god was instantly fired up. The Greek's on the other hand, who were mono-theastic had a lot of variety in their beliefs, basically, there was a god to fit whatever personallity you wished. The same is true for Faerun. Not only was homosexuality accepted in ancient Greece, it was encouraged. A bond between two men on the battlefield was ideal. For what better reason do men fight then love? In a sense, the greatest warriors in all of history were gay. Alaxander the Great being chief. (A man who actually fought on the front lines of hundreds of battles with his men.) Now, that is not to say that there isn't a religeon in Faerun who doesnt believe that people who want to hump weird stuff should be burned, the trouble is, what are they going to do about it? Unlike the Catholic church, the church of, oh... I dont know, the Martyr god Imyltar (I believe) which most resembles christianity, does not have the power to enforce this sort of thing, though I suppose they could have Paladin's to hunt down any gay people... but Good luck. At anyrate, it would be fun to have some faith or another IC be homophobes who want to purge the world of gay people. HA. That would be a fun RP angle. Well, I really - and mean REALLY wanted to stay way from posting on this subject more than I ever did on any other subject. But since someone wanted to try to turn it into a real history lesson, I thought I would try to bring some perspective to it. Homosexuality has always been a play an entertainment of elite society in nearly each and every culture including Greece, Rome, Japan, and present day American and European culture. Everyone does all they can to subversively normalize the practice. With that said, no known religion in the history of the world has ever endorsed, supported or recognized homosexuality as an acceptable way of life. It isn't just Christian moral tyrrany. Governments slow get swayed to adopt it as normal due to public outcry. Homosexuality has never had any true legitimacy in any religious docterine or governmental law. I dont want to get my self in trouble for being a bigot or anything, what you want to do is your business. I just don't like seeing history being reconstructed to fit the needs of modern beliefs and arguements. But now I fear, I just brought this topic to a whole new level, and for that I truely apologize.
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Post by Mr. Baboon on Jun 17, 2005 17:26:10 GMT -5
Actually, the one contrary I can think of, is the the Buddhists - or at least, those I have spoken to - think that homosexuality is alright; you're just being punished for a previous life. It's the closest to being acceptable, but homosexuals are always being brought down by "The Man," throughout all of history. Even if it was done behind closed doors, no one ever spoke of it. As a DM previously {for a much larger server}, I had to make a ruling about Same Sex Marriages in the world of Forgotten Realms: I said yes, being the big liberal guy I am. Well, when that happened, it was opening Pandora's box. A society based on midevil europe did not allow Homosexuality, but I decided it would be a healthy thing for the server. Then, every 14-year-old boy made a Lesbian character, and before we knew it, there were more homosexual couples around than straight ones. I really suggest against it. IRL, I'm all for it; don't get me wrong. But it really isn't something that should be forced into the server, becuase it really will get out of control. You get alot of complaints and alot of open homosexual couples {all of whom turn out to be Lesbians}. It's really just... not a good idea. This is coming from someone who DM'd for TWO YEARS on a large server, and dealt with this FOR A YEAR, mind you. Just heed my advice on this.
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Post by Talus on Jun 17, 2005 17:40:12 GMT -5
Then, every 14-year-old boy made a Lesbian character, and before we knew it, there were more homosexual couples around than straight ones. Ha ha I can completely see that happening. Mostly because I am still a14 year old boy at heart. ;D
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jun 17, 2005 20:31:15 GMT -5
Im all for making hot lipstick lesbian barbarian characters.
As for the above note. In my "attempt" to "try" and bring a historical example into play, I assure you, I was not mistaken. While homosexuality is rarley considered by societies for marrage, that is because "marrage" was intended to begin a family. Families back in those days were a big deal as they produced heirs and strengthened ones holdings and power. As two men cannot have a child, it wasnt really a productive relationship, and so did not require a bunch of ceremony. Much like a kings Heirom didnt require a ceremony. he had his wife, then he has his heirom. That is not to say there have not been cultures where this behavior was accepted. Greece, though certainly the minority in world history, is a shining example. Homosexuality was not an entertainment of the rich. It was common and accepted practice amongst any man who choose to do so, and was encouraged by military commanders. You will fight harder for one you love. A simple philosohy that held true throughout the entire Greek lifespan. Rome was on and off, but also had spells of homosexual acceptence, depending upon the Ceasor of the time. The entertainment of the rich was more the practice of Pederasty, which though it was a homosexual behavior, took place in the courting of men and young boys. Rarley was sex involved however, this truly was a fancy of the rich. (Apparently still practiced today by the rich and heavily plastic surgerized.) This was also the case in feudal Japan. When it comes to Greece and Rome, keep in mind that these cultures both were monotheastic in a manner that much more closely resembles Forgotten Realms then any other point in time. We say that FR is based on medevil society, but truly, other then the technology in weapons and armor and the architectural elements, Greek or Roman society comes much closer to the mark historically. (Fuedal Europe = Catholic idiologies only!) If societies have historically not accepted homosexuality, that is because cultures often percieve those who sleep with men to be feminine (minus the above examples). In a species steeped in war, this means weakness, as in RL women are not commonly soldier material. Men, with all of their war-like tendancies view weakness with disdain. Not saying this is fair, but it is true. Here is the peridox however, since women are equal in every respect to men in Forgotten Realms, including combat potential, strength, and speed, there would be no reason for any Forgotten Realms male to percieve someone with feminine tendancies as weaker. Thus, the homophobe attitude really shouldnt even exist in Torill. As for Earth, in the past, many cultures have had a problem with gay men for a very telling reason. They were primitive and didnt know any better. Now days, science tells us that when any speicies of mammal is living in highly dense overpopulation, that spiecies takes steps to solve its own problems. More hermaphidites are born, more of the species have homosexual tendencies. This has been documented multiple times within animal populations. Really the only reason to have a problem with gay people now a days, is because god told you too. I doubt you will find to many atheists or agnostics beyond the age or reason who honoestly believe homosexuals to be the bane of exisitance.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Jun 17, 2005 20:38:56 GMT -5
Then, every 14-year-old boy made a Lesbian character, and before we knew it, there were more homosexual couples around than straight ones. Ha ha I can completely see that happening. Mostly because I am still a14 year old boy at heart. ;D Aren't we all? I mean that in the MANLIEST sense possible, but yeah. Fun stuff. ;D ** edit... lighten up, y'all... all y'all.
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Post by prophyet on Jun 18, 2005 5:24:52 GMT -5
Im all for making hot lipstick lesbian barbarian characters. As for the above note. In my "attempt" to "try" and bring a historical example into play, I assure you, I was not mistaken. While homosexuality is rarley considered by societies for marrage, that is because "marrage" was intended to begin a family. Families back in those days were a big deal as they produced heirs and strengthened ones holdings and power. As two men cannot have a child, it wasnt really a productive relationship, and so did not require a bunch of ceremony. Much like a kings Heirom didnt require a ceremony. he had his wife, then he has his heirom. That is not to say there have not been cultures where this behavior was accepted. Greece, though certainly the minority in world history, is a shining example. Homosexuality was not an entertainment of the rich. It was common and accepted practice amongst any man who choose to do so, and was encouraged by military commanders. You will fight harder for one you love. A simple philosohy that held true throughout the entire Greek lifespan. Rome was on and off, but also had spells of homosexual acceptence, depending upon the Ceasor of the time. The entertainment of the rich was more the practice of Pederasty, which though it was a homosexual behavior, took place in the courting of men and young boys. Rarley was sex involved however, this truly was a fancy of the rich. (Apparently still practiced today by the rich and heavily plastic surgerized.) This was also the case in feudal Japan. When it comes to Greece and Rome, keep in mind that these cultures both were monotheastic in a manner that much more closely resembles Forgotten Realms then any other point in time. We say that FR is based on medevil society, but truly, other then the technology in weapons and armor and the architectural elements, Greek or Roman society comes much closer to the mark historically. (Fuedal Europe = Catholic idiologies only!) If societies have historically not accepted homosexuality, that is because cultures often percieve those who sleep with men to be feminine (minus the above examples). In a species steeped in war, this means weakness, as in RL women are not commonly soldier material. Men, with all of their war-like tendancies view weakness with disdain. Not saying this is fair, but it is true. Here is the peridox however, since women are equal in every respect to men in Forgotten Realms, including combat potential, strength, and speed, there would be no reason for any Forgotten Realms male to percieve someone with feminine tendancies as weaker. Thus, the homophobe attitude really shouldnt even exist in Torill. As for Earth, in the past, many cultures have had a problem with gay men for a very telling reason. They were primitive and didnt know any better. Now days, science tells us that when any speicies of mammal is living in highly dense overpopulation, that spiecies takes steps to solve its own problems. More hermaphidites are born, more of the species have homosexual tendencies. This has been documented multiple times within animal populations. Really the only reason to have a problem with gay people now a days, is because god told you too. I doubt you will find to many atheists or agnostics beyond the age or reason who honoestly believe homosexuals to be the bane of exisitance. Well, this is most fitting for my hundredth post. A soon to be flaming off topic debate about a subject I really dont want to be talking about in the first place and which only result is to get me in trouble, but seeing how I love to talk history and sociology, why not. First, few common men wrote the documents we use as reference for our historical knowledge. Social elites who are seemingly more prone to decadence are the authors we refer for our history lessons. That is a known concern for any student of history or anthropology: trying to see what 'real' life was like from the era and not just the perceptions of some poet in a mansion. And we all heard about the fierce Greecian battalion of 500 paired lovers (1000 in all). But as to whether they truely existed or not hasn't been proven, niether was it proven that they inspired mortal fear in those unfortunate enough to have to fight them. It may sound poetic, but one of the main reasons why women are kept out of frontline combat is that male soldiers do stupid and illogical acts to protect the woman. Call it a guess, but I would think similar circumstances would arise if your male lover was fighting with you as well. And are you telling me that science has proven how and why homosexuality occurs? I have heard many different theories. Granted I may be leaning toward the population control theory that you sited, it is just a blind theory there is not hard science behind how or why homosexualty occurs, only anecdotal evidence and guess'. Althogh homosexuality has thrived through out recorded history in all cultures, it would only seem logical that it is a condition that should have bred itself out long ago, but it is as present and controversial today as it was 3000 years ago. Paradoxes abound. And I do apologize for bringing such an off topic thing to the board.
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Post by MithrilBlade on Jun 18, 2005 8:22:04 GMT -5
About that lesbian thing, I have seen this to happen before in another server I used to play.
Basically EVERY woman there (of course played by men) were lesbians who played their games upstairs of the local inn.
This is something I really wouldn't like to see in FRC, I do accept if there are some lesbian couples but when every female characters turn to this it becomes greatly unrealistic.
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Post by Keetena on Jun 18, 2005 12:16:30 GMT -5
This is funny, each one of you all likes play what pleases you, and not be questioned while you do this without break the rules, so I see no reason to blame players who wanna do lesbians, this is their will, let they roleplay it! Even if every single character in server becomes lesbian, let's play for fun and do what pleases us! That's all.
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Gusty
New Member
Posts: 58
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Post by Gusty on Jun 18, 2005 14:39:56 GMT -5
I know at least one of those rapes was initiated by the rapee (sp?)
and no I didn't do it!!!
Thorstein is alot of things but a rapist is not one of them.
note: if someone is asking you to RP rape their character. You probably don't want to do it.
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Sarah
Old School
Son'ya the pure hearted one
Posts: 398
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Post by Sarah on Jun 19, 2005 16:23:21 GMT -5
(sara)
Keetena I know this is all my doing but just make a poll
it the only really way to found out
OOC: if no one wish for Son'ya to live happy...it fine by me...but can you live with knowing that you broke poor Son'ya heart ____________________________
*smiles*
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Post by Spooks on Sept 11, 2005 7:05:11 GMT -5
somehow... I think clotho will get over the hardship of breaking son'ya's heart... and i myself will "somehow" get over the trauma. ;D I dont mind it in the server, but in all honesty. IC Clotho is a BITCH! you will have gay jokes if it becomes an open topic for debate in game. Clotho even makes fun of and Stealths around the blind girl... (so friggin funny ;D ) Just if you are going to roleplay something that sensitive, expect reactions from less than nice people. As Tori once said to me when Thrulia and her got into an arguement. "TELL: Don't take RP personally" Because it will get your feelings hurt.
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C'tair
New Member
Today is the first day of the Rest of Your life... Not Much to look forward to, is it?
Posts: 85
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Post by C'tair on Sept 11, 2005 11:16:03 GMT -5
lol spooks.....
personally i would prefer it when RL topics like this aren't introduced into the game. there's always the risk that someone gets hurt.
when someone starts to make his preferences publicly known, he should expect to get some rather nasty reactions. some people are known to be not of the restraining kind, especially when bored.
when you're running around with a wick on your head, don't be surprised if people start to dual wield torches.
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Anaxarete
New Member
This girl's trouble!
Posts: 40
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Post by Anaxarete on Sept 11, 2005 11:27:42 GMT -5
I played on a server a while ago that actually banned homosexuality -- and although I know a few on the DM team were distinctily opposed to it, the reason they did it was not because of their RL views (entirely, anyway). The lesbians were taking over. As a lesbian myself, it was.. sort of frustrating; because all of the men playing women IC had their characters hook up with other men playing women IC, it spread like an epidemic; anyone who wanted their character to ever have a relationship pretty much had to make a gay female. By the time I came along, it was a huge problem -- and I unwittingly created a new character, female and gay (as always), and lo and behold, it was banned shortly thereafter. I don't care if my characters have romance in their lives or not (from my RL experience, your sexual orientation is not connected to who you are as a person, and not even a large part of your life, until you're in a relationship with someone), but if it comes along.. (no sexual stuff, tho', that weirds me out a bit, one reason among many being it's pretty much guaranteed that any IC lesbian has a RL male player, huh? ) Ah, well. Let's just hope the lesbians never launch a full scale invasion of the server.
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