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Post by mandene on Jul 28, 2019 12:14:42 GMT -5
So... I noticed that the sizes we have been playing around with aren't consequent in comparison to what other players choose for their sizes.
I played around with numbers and have ended up with this little table. I used Player's Handbook 3.5 Ed for races sizes. I made one change to it - changed elf male size to be 3% over the medium size (according to the book elven females and males are same length, but their not same length in NWN).
I chose the DnD book and not Forgotten Realms, because the elven models are short, which fits with the DnD standard.
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Post by mandene on Jul 28, 2019 12:32:36 GMT -5
Race, gender
| Very short
| Rather Short
| Below Average
| Average Height | Above Average
| Rather Tall | Very Tall
| Human, male
| 5'2"
| 5'4"
| 5'6"
| 5'9"
| 5'11"
| 6'1"
| 6'3"
| Human, female
| 4'10"
| 5'0"
| 5'2"
| 5'4"
| 5'5"
| 5'7"
| 5'9"
| Dwarf, male
| 3'9"
| 3'11"
| 4'0"
| 4'2"
| 4'3"
| 4'5"
| 4'6"
| Dwarf, female
| 3'7"
| 3'9"
| 3'10"
| 4'0"
| 4'1"
| 4'2"
| 4'4"
| Elf, male
| 4'8"
| 4'10"
| 4'11"
| 5'1"
| 5'3"
| 5'5"
| 5'7"
| Elf, female
| 4'6"
| 4'8"
| 4'10"
| 5'0"
| 5'1"
| 5'3"
| 5'5"
| Gnome, male
| 3'1"
| 3'2"
| 3'3"
| 3'5"
| 3'6"
| 3'7"
| 3'8"
| Gnome, female
| 2'11"
| 3'0"
| 3'1"
| 3'3"
| 3'5"
| 3'5"
| 3'6"
| Half-orc, male
| 5'4"
| 5'6"
| 5'8"
| 5'11"
| 6'1"
| 6'3"
| 6'5"
| Half-orc, female
| 5'0"
| 5'2"
| 5'4"
| 5'6"
| 5'7"
| 5'9"
| 5'11"
| Halfling, male
| 2'9"
| 2'10"
| 2'11"
| 3'1"
| 3'2"
| 3'3"
| 3'4"
| Halfling, female
| 2'7"
| 2'8"
| 2'9"
| 2'11"
| 3'0"
| 3'1"
| 3'2"
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Alright.... discuss and scream  |
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Post by DM Hawk on Jul 28, 2019 12:40:11 GMT -5
I'm a half-orc. I never knew...but somehow...I've always known...
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Post by edmaster44 on Jul 28, 2019 13:06:12 GMT -5
Do note, that book isn't FR Focused, Elves are Much taller in the Forgotten Realms, Near Human Height in many instances, so it isn't odd to see a Very tall Sun Elf.
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Post by mandene on Jul 28, 2019 13:14:01 GMT -5
Do note, that book isn't FR Focused, Elves are Much taller in the Forgotten Realms, Near Human Height in many instances, so it isn't odd to see a Very tall Sun Elf.
I'll probably add a Forgotten Realms size table for comparison...
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Post by Munroe on Jul 28, 2019 15:40:54 GMT -5
Race, gender
| Very short
| Rather Short
| Below Average
| Average Height | Above Average
| Rather Tall | Very Tall
| Human, male
| 5'2"
| 5'4"
| 5'6"
| 5'9"
| 5'11"
| 6'1"
| 6'3"
| Human, female
| 4'10"
| 5'0"
| 5'2"
| 5'4"
| 5'5"
| 5'7"
| 5'9"
| Dwarf, male
| 3'9"
| 3'11"
| 4'0"
| 4'2"
| 4'3"
| 4'5"
| 4'6"
| Dwarf, female
| 3'7"
| 3'9"
| 3'10"
| 4'0"
| 4'1"
| 4'2"
| 4'4"
| Elf, male
| 4'8"
| 4'10"
| 4'11"
| 5'1"
| 5'3"
| 5'5"
| 5'7"
| Elf, female
| 4'6"
| 4'8"
| 4'10"
| 5'0"
| 5'1"
| 5'3"
| 5'5"
| Gnome, male
| 3'1"
| 3'2"
| 3'3"
| 3'5"
| 3'6"
| 3'7"
| 3'8"
| Gnome, female
| 2'11"
| 3'0"
| 3'1"
| 3'3"
| 3'5"
| 3'5"
| 3'6"
| Half-orc, male
| 5'4"
| 5'6"
| 5'8"
| 5'11"
| 6'1"
| 6'3"
| 6'5"
| Half-orc, female
| 5'0"
| 5'2"
| 5'4"
| 5'6"
| 5'7"
| 5'9"
| 5'11"
| Halfling, male
| 2'9"
| 2'10"
| 2'11"
| 3'1"
| 3'2"
| 3'3"
| 3'4"
| Halfling, female
| 2'7"
| 2'8"
| 2'9"
| 2'11"
| 3'0"
| 3'1"
| 3'2"
|
Alright.... discuss and scream I came up with different results for a human female using the height tables from Player's Guide to Faerun, but I was also adjusting for ethnicity. Even just looking at human female on your table, versus the ranges in PHB 3.5e, your ranges don't make sense to me. According to the PHB 3.5e, the height for a human female is 4'5" +2d10 inches. That does mean 5'4" average height, but the minimum height for a human female is 4'7" and maximum height is 6'1". Your values are way closer together than that. The extreme ends of the options should better match the extreme ends of the ranges. These changes are not one inch, at least not in the human scales. That's both by the book, and by eye-balling it. |
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Post by mandene on Jul 28, 2019 16:02:26 GMT -5
Race, gender
| Very short
| Rather Short
| Below Average
| Average Height | Above Average
| Rather Tall | Very Tall
| Human, male
| 5'2"
| 5'4"
| 5'6"
| 5'9"
| 5'11"
| 6'1"
| 6'3"
| Human, female
| 4'10"
| 5'0"
| 5'2"
| 5'4"
| 5'5"
| 5'7"
| 5'9"
| Dwarf, male
| 3'9"
| 3'11"
| 4'0"
| 4'2"
| 4'3"
| 4'5"
| 4'6"
| Dwarf, female
| 3'7"
| 3'9"
| 3'10"
| 4'0"
| 4'1"
| 4'2"
| 4'4"
| Elf, male
| 4'8"
| 4'10"
| 4'11"
| 5'1"
| 5'3"
| 5'5"
| 5'7"
| Elf, female
| 4'6"
| 4'8"
| 4'10"
| 5'0"
| 5'1"
| 5'3"
| 5'5"
| Gnome, male
| 3'1"
| 3'2"
| 3'3"
| 3'5"
| 3'6"
| 3'7"
| 3'8"
| Gnome, female
| 2'11"
| 3'0"
| 3'1"
| 3'3"
| 3'5"
| 3'5"
| 3'6"
| Half-orc, male
| 5'4"
| 5'6"
| 5'8"
| 5'11"
| 6'1"
| 6'3"
| 6'5"
| Half-orc, female
| 5'0"
| 5'2"
| 5'4"
| 5'6"
| 5'7"
| 5'9"
| 5'11"
| Halfling, male
| 2'9"
| 2'10"
| 2'11"
| 3'1"
| 3'2"
| 3'3"
| 3'4"
| Halfling, female
| 2'7"
| 2'8"
| 2'9"
| 2'11"
| 3'0"
| 3'1"
| 3'2"
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Alright.... discuss and scream I came up with different results for a human female using the height tables from Player's Guide to Faerun, but I was also adjusting for ethnicity. Even just looking at human female on your table, versus the ranges in PHB 3.5e, your ranges don't make sense to me. According to the PHB 3.5e, the height for a human female is 4'5" +2d10 inches. That does mean 5'4" average height, but the minimum height for a human female is 4'7" and maximum height is 6'1". Your values are way closer together than that. The extreme ends of the options should better match the extreme ends of the ranges. These changes are not one inch, at least not in the human scales. That's both by the book, and by eye-balling it.
While the averages are calculated using the books, the maxes and mins aren't. They are calculated based on the 3% differences that have been implemented per step. So, taking your human female as example:
5'4" for a human female becomes 64". the smallest human female according to our resizing of -9% becomes 64 * 0.91 = 58.24 58.24 inches (rounded) becomes 4'10"
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Post by mandene on Jul 28, 2019 17:21:37 GMT -5
Here are Forgotten realms character averages for comparison.
Humans, average heights
Ethnicity
| Male | resize male to
| Female
| resize female to
| Calitshite
| 5'8"
| Average
| 5'3"
| Average
| Chondathan
| 5'10"
| Average
| 5'5"
| Above
| Chultan
| 5'11"
| Above
| 5'6"
| Above
| Damaran
| 5'9"
| Average
| 5'4"
| Average
| Durpari
| 5'8"
| Average
| 5'3"
| Average
| Ffolk
| 5'9"
| Average
| 5'4"
| Average
| Gur
| 5'7"
| Average
| 5'2"
| Below
| Halruuan
| 5'9"
| Average
| 5'4"
| Average
| Illuskan
| 5'11"
| Above
| 5'6"
| Above
| Lantanna
| 5'9"
| Average
| 5'4"
| Average
| Maztican (Naxalan)
| 5'10"
| Average
| 5'5"
| Above
| Mulan
| 5'10"
| Average
| 5'5"
| Above
| Nar
| 5'7"
| Average
| 5'2"
| Below
| Netherese
| 5'9"
| Average
| 5'4"
| Average
| Rashemi
| 5'7"
| Average
| 5'2"
| Below
| Raumviran
| 5'7"
| Average
| 5'2"
| Below
| Shaaran
| 5'9"
| Average
| 5'4"
| Average
| Shou
| 5'9"
| Average
| 5'4"
| Average
| Sossrim
| 5'10"
| Average
| 5'5"
| Above
| Tashalan
| 5'9"
| Average
| 5'4"
| Average
| Tethyrian
| 5'9"
| Average
| 5'4"
| Average
| Tuigan
| 5'9"
| Average
| 5'4"
| Average
| Turami
| 5'10"
| Average
| 5'5"
| Above
| Ulutiu
| 5'7"
| Average
| 5'2"
| Below
| Vaasan
| 5'9"
| Average
| 5'4"
| Average
| Zakharan
| 5'8"
| Average
| 5'3"
| Average
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Other Races: | Race | Male
| Resize male to
| female | Resize female to
| Gold dwarf
| 4'2"
| Average
| 4'0"
| Average
| Shield dwarf
| 4'7"
| Very tall
| 4'5"
| Very tall
| Mool Elf
| 5'9"
| Very tall
| 5'4"
| Rather tall
| Sun Elf
| 5'9"
| Very tall
| 5'4"
| Rather tall
| Wild Elf
| 5'9"
| Very tall
| 5'4"
| Rather tall
| Wood Elf
| 5'9"
| Very tall
| 5'4"
| Rather tall
| Rock Gnome
| 3'5"
| Average
| 3'3"
| Average
| Half-elf
| 5'9"
| Average
| 5'4"
| Average
| Half-Orc
| 5'11"
| Average
| 5'6"
| Average
| Lgithfoot Halfling
| 3'1"
| Average
| 2'11"
| Average
| Strongheart Halfling
| 3'1"
| Average
| 2'11"
| Average
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Post by Munroe on Jul 28, 2019 19:58:51 GMT -5
I came up with different results for a human female using the height tables from Player's Guide to Faerun, but I was also adjusting for ethnicity. Even just looking at human female on your table, versus the ranges in PHB 3.5e, your ranges don't make sense to me. According to the PHB 3.5e, the height for a human female is 4'5" +2d10 inches. That does mean 5'4" average height, but the minimum height for a human female is 4'7" and maximum height is 6'1". Your values are way closer together than that. The extreme ends of the options should better match the extreme ends of the ranges. These changes are not one inch, at least not in the human scales. That's both by the book, and by eye-balling it. While the averages are calculated using the books, the maxes and mins aren't. They are calculated based on the 3% differences that have been implemented per step. So, taking your human female as example:
5'4" for a human female becomes 64". the smallest human female according to our resizing of -9% becomes 64 * 0.91 = 58.24 58.24 inches (rounded) becomes 4'10"
Characters are built with the ranges though, not the percentages of the height chooser. The percentages shouldn't be taken that literally. Characters exist to the full range of their standard heights, so the extremes of the available heights should be assigned to the extremes of the available ranges, not limited by the percentages difference from the average height. |
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Post by mandene on Jul 29, 2019 0:34:04 GMT -5
While the averages are calculated using the books, the maxes and mins aren't. They are calculated based on the 3% differences that have been implemented per step. So, taking your human female as example:
5'4" for a human female becomes 64". the smallest human female according to our resizing of -9% becomes 64 * 0.91 = 58.24 58.24 inches (rounded) becomes 4'10"
Characters are built with the ranges though, not the percentages of the height chooser. The percentages shouldn't be taken that literally. Characters exist to the full range of their standard heights, so the extremes of the available heights should be assigned to the extremes of the available ranges, not limited by the percentages difference from the average height. That might have been your (the DMs) goal to begin with, and I agreed upon it until Saturday. I ran into a character that was supposed to be a foot taller than mine, but since his was a human resized upwards and my elf was resized downwards, mine looked like a halfling next to his. It looked rediculous. In my next step I'm going to play around with the toolset to see at what point the human becomes the size of other races. |
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Post by FlyingMidget on Jul 29, 2019 1:24:58 GMT -5
Fact of the matter is, what you see IG is only an avatar, a very loose representation of ones character appearance unless one wishes to believe every character has one of very few heads, very few hair styles, very limited armour/weapon appearances, heights as far as I'm aware were added with a basic adjustment to fill players desire to add a little extra customization to their characters to make them stand out just that little bit more against others of their own race, rather then just having same old head / armour pieces for customization options. If a player has a specific height in mind for their character it's always best to add it to their characters description so everyone is able to know how tall they should be.
Perhaps the taller options for humans should be disabled, perhaps elves should have an extra height category to be added at some point in the future, maybe halflings/gnomes should loose the shortest & tallest options. Regardless what is decided by the DM team, we have always used setting specific heights for races and the new adjustments allowable aren't that different then what things used to be, Tasar as a 6'1" elf using the default model was far shorter in appearance then a human that was suppose to be 5'5" back when all we had were the default racial models for sizes.
No system using such will be perfect, there are issues with certain percentages, more so when they're higher.
I do wanna say as an off-topic fun sorta thing, it's a cool bit of work you put into doing such up Mandene, but not so much if you want to try and have them considered as what is actually IC.
FM.
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Post by Dobian on Jul 29, 2019 8:40:11 GMT -5
I think it would be great if the builders focused their attention next on the characters themselves, including giving us adjustable character heights. It works great where I've seen it implemented.
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Post by Animayhem on Jul 29, 2019 9:49:56 GMT -5
I have no problem and I am glad the height adjuster is in place. My elf A'zu'ra is average height, Naralith is above average a tall sun elf and I have Marister as tall.
In regards to the human male there is not much to choose between tall and very tall. Still a nice addition.
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Post by mandene on Jul 29, 2019 9:50:03 GMT -5
I think it would be great if the builders focused their attention next on the characters themselves, including giving us adjustable character heights. It works great where I've seen it implemented. *makes a double take on the text* |
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Post by hellscream123 on Jul 29, 2019 10:04:43 GMT -5
I think it would be great if the builders focused their attention next on the characters themselves, including giving us adjustable character heights. It works great where I've seen it implemented. Dobian my friend. That's the feature that's been put in and discussed. On the note of it however i will drop 2 cents saying a broader range will always be lovely for folk who have specific heights in mind. However if the resources per model are too hefty a crunch than the current options are still great. |
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Post by uriziel on Jul 29, 2019 11:40:21 GMT -5
I've seen servers do a per inch conversion instead, up or down, with maxes set. But that may be too much. Super glad we have what we do here, it's very cool to be able to actually visually be tall in game, or short.
One day, I'll have to run a very short str based halfling, because that'd be hysterical.
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Post by mandene on Jul 29, 2019 11:59:11 GMT -5
I started with a goal in mind to be able to see what the numbers could represent. But after having done some of the work, I foresee this analysis leading to me leaving these suggestions:
- Server automatically making a resize of PC models to average representation of their (general) race/gender.
- Setting that new size as "average" for the race.
- Allowing characters to resize in the steps that exist now - but using better step representation (not necessarily more steps, but possibly different than just 3% per step) based on min/max of the races.
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Post by jensmann on Jul 29, 2019 15:26:38 GMT -5
i hate the idea of having to adhere to fixed racial heights table, what if someone wants to play a character with giant ancenstry for example, they need to be bigger than what such a table would allow.
This is still a fantasy rpg, leave people some breathing room please.
i am not a fan of the resizer, but the way it is handled currently is the BEST possible solution.
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Post by Dobian on Jul 29, 2019 19:28:45 GMT -5
I think it would be great if the builders focused their attention next on the characters themselves, including giving us adjustable character heights. It works great where I've seen it implemented. *makes a double take on the text* Well, ahem, I saw the table and thought you all were just talking abstractly about character sizes. So we can really do that now. Sounds good to me. So now I will shift my suggestion to... more clothes options! |
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