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Post by shanara on Sept 14, 2006 7:48:42 GMT -5
I've been playing clerics for years. I've always seen my clerics as healers so I'm like Snubletraad and play them according to that idea.
I've always been dissappointed with the higher level spells given a cleric in that I cannot justify a Dawnbringer ever using the create, control or any of the other spells with regards to the undead except to smite them. ;D I've had others argue the point, but that's the way I feel about it.
I've always buffed any party memebers before myself and concentrate on trying to heal them though it's not always easy when there's so much going on at once.
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Post by sangrow on Sept 14, 2006 7:50:55 GMT -5
Im new to FRC så I dont know how things work here but I took the topic as a general discussion. The unbalanced class cleric have bugged me for years.
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Post by Dachshund on Sept 14, 2006 7:55:47 GMT -5
Im new to FRC så I dont know how things work here but I took the topic as a general discussion. The unbalanced class cleric have bugged me for years. Check the first thread under General Discussion. Here you will see several modifications to spells that affect clerics here on FRC. And I agree with Shanara that there aren't many spells suitable for good aligned clerics at the higher levels. I wouldn't know how hard it is to actually add spells to FRC, but I suppose the builders have better uses for their time.
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Post by sangrow on Sept 14, 2006 9:10:08 GMT -5
if people RP clerics and by that themselves put bounderies according to their religion then there arent no problem really...Perhaps I will be pleasantly surprised her at FRC. ;D
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Sept 14, 2006 9:25:38 GMT -5
Time Stop is broke but not always in my favor. One time it almost instantly stopped working lasted like 2 rounds. Another time only effected some of the people on the screen and then another time it lasted like 4 mins haha It's luck of the draw when cast but generally it does seem to last like 30 seconds or so. I looked through the TS script, and it isn't broken (at least not by us). It should last for 1d4+1 rounds, bearing in mind that 1 round is 6 seconds real time. So it is very likely that Time stop could last 30 seconds (5 rounds X 6 seconds). Can't explain why it would last 4 mins though . . . Funny cause scrolls of Time Stop read: Duration : 9 sec
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Post by Pookey on Sept 14, 2006 11:51:41 GMT -5
Ah, that must have been terrible to sit, wait, then die through.... gosh. Ha! Anyway, maybe it just seemed like forever but was only 30 seconds. Sure seemed like it was longer.
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Post by moulinous on Sept 14, 2006 13:43:36 GMT -5
What's totally ironic is that the only people who have ever given him any real amount of respect are Kam, Shivata, and the Banites- all evil people Waitaminute! Kam's evil!? But his prices are so low, low, low! This why you should only buy from a certain dwarf. ;D
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Post by Grozer on Sept 14, 2006 16:07:45 GMT -5
Ive played NWN since it was released and i can honestly say I have only played one cleric to level 5-6 and then stopped because it had challenge ZERO. In the pen and paper game the cleirc has to answer to his or her god in the computer game noone. A cleric cant totally abuse his given powers to buff himself and act tank in any situation without consequence. Divine powers are in my opinion a religious gift given to be used in the best posibile way to honor the god from it has been given. I can hardly see how it would honor a majority of gods to buff up and run around looking for possible carnage. The speaker that said something about the cleric have to choose what spells to pick to have healing must have some other experience than me because I have never ever seen any NWN cleric that has devoted him/her self to the healing and buffing of others. They totally buff up and use their spells for attack if they got any left. I say give the devoted to the divine an holy symbol which makes it possible for them to cast divine spells. If the DMs see these character abuse their power in the characters own interest instead of their gods then take it away and let the character prove themselves worthy of the gods favor! This does not apply to Arcane user since the whole point with the arcane is to abuse it in the users best interest. Well, I've played a cleric quite a while now, reached epic levels but I know for a fact my character is quite vulnerable and I have been challenged constantly. I dont think you can compare playing classes in single player vs. multi player. I'll just assume you have never played a cleric of Bane.... and well, running around buffing up and using Bane's power to create carnage and fear is EXACTLY what is expected. In fact, in Bane's dogma it states that his clerics despise using healing spells as a waste of Bane's power. In fact cleric's of Bane are generally the commander's of forces and direct tactics unlike some other deity's clerics which may serve a more support role. Additionally its important to note that FRC is a RP server and if a cleric is running around NOT properly RP'ing their God's influence or dogma, I can say they WILL feel repercussions.
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Post by Hackmaster on Sept 14, 2006 17:10:43 GMT -5
I know from personal experience around several clerics that party with Phelzaron that they do try to play according to their gods wishes. That does not mean they all do. I have seen the other end of the spectrum as well where they just buff the crap out of themselves and hold no healing at all for the party. Clerics though are not always healers. I know of one player on here that plays strictly a healer and does not fight unless it's undead or in self defense but seems loath to do that preferring only to heal others wounds. I have never seen her cast anything other then a healing spell.
A war god would likely not grant many healing spells unless it was some sort of battle priest I suppose. One that enters the dangers of battles to heal the wounded that is supporting a cause in the name of the priest's god. I do think that most newbs who start a cleric are usually doing it wrong but they learn in time as they observe others playing clerics and correct themselves as they go by trial and error IF they are committed to RP their characters properly.
As for time stop not working I think it does work for the most part other then sometimes not everyone is frozen and I cannot remember where the 4 minute freeze happened. I think Anuir you were there though and so was Aelrik....I think but it was while we were play testing something off FRC that you had made and I hosted so we could work out the kinks. It may not have been 4 mins but it was damn close cause I remember everyone grumbling at me HAHA
There is a glitch not FRC's fault as far as I know though that occasionally some players are not frozen with everyone else. If that happens though they should stand still anyways cause thats a glitch and YOU are NOT immune HAHA also Time stop wearing off within two rounds is normal just a bad roll on the 1D4+1 I suppose. I think it should be a little more manipulated with the power of the wizard though like 1D4+1 and +1 round for every 2 or 3 levels after level 17 or something like that. Not that that can be done easily but wizards grow in power so should their spells I say.
As for the Create Greater Undead thats interesting I was not sure what you could summon but those summons sound much better then Create Undead I mean that spanks that spell and rightly so. Don't help the wizard though. Nor the evil cleric who has not got that far yet. The create undead spell is truly weak and like I say I believe the skeletal chieftain could spank the most powerful version of the Create Undead spell while they are both fully buffed cause I can add like two more offensive buffs to the chieftain that I cannot add to any of the undead summoned by the Create Undead spell. I cannot remember off the top of my head but I am also pretty sure the Undead from the Create Undead spell have much lower attack, armor class, and Hit points then the Planar Ally and Planar Ally is one spell level lower then Create Undead so other then for RP reasons a player has little incentive to summon undead when a lower spell slot is a ton better and does not waste that critical high level spell slot. If raising the undead up to par with it's 7th level slot seems unbalancing then perhaps it's planar Ally that needs to be toned down? Although I think as it is surviving on FRC as a wizard is tough enough and dumbing down our spells would not help us in the slightest but make things worse.
I have been playing this for a long time and I have watched those that started out as 1st levels while I was around 12th actually pass me in half the time. I have not always played like crazy but I have put some serious time on here. A 10 hour day in the realm of delusion...*coughs* was far from unusual for me. I just can't keep up at my level cause I have no way to adventure on my own like 90% of the other classes do. So when they have alone time they are able to fill it with excursions out into the wilderness to earn a few XP while there friends are offline. My last level change was 3 months ago to 19th and I have seen just over 1000 XP in that time. Thankfully 90% of that was from DM's for RP bonus. otherwise I would have more around 200 XP right now. Yeah...thats how bad it is at my level as a wizard. I could go out and fight a bunch of 1 XP creatures I suppose and maybe I would have 2000 or even 3000 XP by now but earning 1 XP a creature is not fun and I might as well fight kobolds then to travel into the mountains to fight 1 XP hill giants that might actually kill me. When a warrior says oops I bit off more then I could chew they usually just run away to regroup or go somewhere else. When a wizard makes that mistake it is fatal.
Thats why I believe the summons spells being balanced and making sense is very important to us. I am not ashamed to call them exactly what they are and thats a meat shield, though I do and I am sure most other wizards and clerics do RP with their summons. I RP with my Archon all the time. All of Phelzaron's friends have even nick named him Archy and I interact with people around him by throwing my voice. Sometimes DM's even possess Archy knowing that him and I are friends.
I cannot develop a report with Greater Planar Ally cause he is here and gone again faster then the combat lasts and just long enough to hurt everyone in the party as I said before and then stand there casting defensive spells. As for the other summons unless I extend them they are gone within minutes even for Phelzaron. I imagine for a low level they just plain suck. I myself would not use summons spells again until 17th level because all the summons were so short and a waste of a spell slot. Even now the only one that comes even close to Planar Ally is Summon Creature IX!!! Hello? Three spell levels higher and I cannot make it last past like 10 minutes and is weaker still then a 6th level spell that lasts for over 3 hours. Something is rotten in Denmark and I am pretty sure its Vinduil!
Now I don't blame FRC staff for this. They didn't do it however if you can see that this is a problem and you think it is fixable without too much trouble I am sure wizards, druids, and clerics everywhere will say a big fat HUGE THANK YOU! Phelzaron will even personally offer up the blood of Glewien Sellows in thanks! I will even dispose of the rotten thing in Denmark!
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Post by moulinous on Sept 14, 2006 19:13:27 GMT -5
okay, i was not going to say anything but well, i am going to weigh in on this i guess. i think playing a cleric is hard. Specially if you play it properly. and if you think it is easy playing a dwarf who does follow his gods dogma very carefully and would love to become a divine champion of his god, well...try it sometime. Does your pc always follow his or her gods dogma? Ask yourself if he does really. I mean, if you are a follower of war and good then yes some heal spells are a good idea...but a follower of war and chaos? Or storms and crap like that. Would a follower of Talos ever have some heal spells or a priest of Mask? I read a story of a paladin that had become evil and since his new god did not grant heal spells and he was fooling his old cronies with magic items and such. maybe if you do take certain dogmas...certain spells should not be available. kinda like being a halfling and certain weapons are not allowed. as for the magic stuff, crud, you get to 19th level, yes you deserve to get some power...but remember, a battle axe hurts at any level.
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Post by Dachshund on Sept 15, 2006 0:00:21 GMT -5
Phelzaron will even personally offer up the blood of Glewien Sellows in thanks! I will even dispose of the rotten thing in Denmark! You do know we'll find you, don't you? And when we do...!
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Post by scramasax on Sept 15, 2006 2:30:09 GMT -5
For the past few months since I joined, I thought the forums were rather quiet given the playerbase. It's quite pleasant to see such the forums livened up like this. I've always felt that all classes behave differently and can roundly trouce each other given the right situation. I strongly believe that not a single class has been shafted. Imho, no class should necessarily even be able to COUNTER another class in the opposing class' optimal situation. Smart play is optimising and changing the situation to suit your PC. Fighters/barbs can defeat any class up close. Wizards/sorcs from range can defeat any other class. Clerics that are prepared can defeat any other class. Druids with the right intel can morph/cast to defeat any other class in a number of ways. Rogues/Rangers in stealth with space and time can trap any foe to death in NWN. Monks begin weak, but advance very powerfully. Bards, being more versatile than any other class, are near ideal-support PCs when played single-classed, or enjoy unique advantages if multiclassed (SD/AAs, WM/RDDs, loads more). Sure, some tweaking may be a good thing. For example, I'd hazard that clerics enjoy more situations than any other class within which they can secure victory, but no class is infallible. It's all about finding that weakness. Continuing the same example, clerics have poor reflex saves - which ensuing results can be quite hilarious. (I recall the baddest PC on another server, a HO ftr/clr, running around during a quest and confident in his ability to shrug off or heal damage... until he got zapped by some deadly traps placed by a DM) Bottomline, what I'd hope for is for the NWN status quo. The less tampering with the rules, the better. Every time a class change is made, three of four other classes are affected in unexpected ways. Imho, it's much better to change the PW than change the game. For example, if rogues are unpopular and clerics are too popular, put more traps in dungeons. vice-versa. If spellchuckers are too powerful compared to melee-types (which is common in RP PWs), make more magic items available in quests and stores. vice versa. If too many PCs rely on buffing to win their battles, increase the number of foes that cast dispels. Want more ideas? I got plenty... One of the few situations I'd consider tweaking is where Bioware departs from WOTC rules. I dare say that no PW has had the benefit of more professional playtesting and balancing than the folks at WOTC. Not Bioware, and certainly not FRC. Some departures may be good (like Set Trap ), some may be bad (skewed spell durations and effects). I'd also pay attention to 3.5 changes as they were probably made for good reasons. Things like relating to strengthening or weakening classes, spell tweaks, stacking rules, and so on. Up rangers! FRC has tampered little with the game mechanics, which is part of the reason I like this place quite a bit. Keep up the good work, I say. Even if that means keeping the status quo!
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Post by Hackmaster on Sept 15, 2006 23:29:37 GMT -5
Oh now come on Snubletraad! It's not like it would be the first time I have not used her blood before! You know we all do the dark ritual thingy as needed. Stop pretending to be all noble and stuff. While your at it will you people in Denmark please go by some body spray or something that don't smell like sulfur!?! If I had a buck every time someone smelled something rotten in Denmark then I would have a whole buck! ;D You have some good points scramasax. However there is one tiny flaw in what you say that I think I should change with your permission and that is the words. Ok, no, I am Total cereal now I will stop. You DO make some good points but you must also remember that FRC is badass BECAUSE of change. Not for stagnation. It has had years of FRC staff tooling it and tweaking it to make it how you currently know it. Many of the awesome things you experience and see would never had happened if not for player and staff feedback and a willing staff dedicated to making it as good as they can. There is only one motive here for staff and players alike and thats to have as much fun as possible while keeping it as fair and balanced as possible. Not one dime is made by anyone so unlike when developers go....Ohhhh the market really wants pink elephants in the D&D game they would do it making gamers everywhere hate them for it. FRC guys and gals get our love and continued loyalty for trying their damnedest to make it an enjoyable experience and that is all they get so if something sucks or is broke you can bet they are not going to drive that square peg in a round hole no matter what. I understand your uneasy feeling about messing with anything. Makes perfect sense to me and sounds like you have been burned and disappointed just like me with developers. My point though in all this is they are not offered a fat bonus for catering to certain target groups they have one group and thats the FRC community and staff....end of special interest groups list. So never fear man they will not ruin a good thing and if they think an idea is crazy, not doable, or whatever trust me when I say they have no problems with coming right out and saying so. Especially to me....cause I hate them with their little noses and sharp pointy teeth! ;D As a side note there is no such thing as a MMORPG just call it what they are MMOPLLFBCCSICOYG (Massively Multi-player Online Power Leveling Look For Best Class Combo So I Can Own You Game) Why do you think all of us misfits are here? HEHE Bioware did a couple things major league right that I can never take away from them and thats they fully opened the toolset and went small town RPG and I love them for that. We all got our thats not D&D gripes and they made a shortcut there gripes but we have to give them respect they deserve for making a top notch game that we play 5 years after release. That is badass for a non MMO! If you people have not guessed yet my feelings of shaftatude comes from MMORPG's haha ;D
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Post by Hackmaster on Sept 15, 2006 23:33:22 GMT -5
One more thing...cause I never give enough credit to the FRC staff so here it goes. Thanks FRC staff for being total TOOLS and fixing all the problems that appear in our beloved Cormyr!!! ;D Phelzaron will probably die a thousand deaths for that bit....
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