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Post by malclave on Feb 16, 2019 1:33:38 GMT -5
As far as the import of physical attractiveness to Charisma is concerned, I'd just point out that a Chort, or pig-faced demon, has a higher Charisma than a Solar. They remind people of bacon, and who doesn't love bacon?
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perspicacity
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Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing. -Dali
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Post by perspicacity on Feb 16, 2019 1:46:12 GMT -5
Hawt!
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Post by stryker on Feb 16, 2019 10:43:04 GMT -5
As I found, every personage is combo of characters features and personal player features In fact, charisma is internal player strenght, leadership, persuade, people management. Personage with high internal charisma is key of team building. Mechanical (game charisma) has effects only to NPC. But internal player charisma has effects to another players. So, character with low game, but high internal charisma suffer with NPC, but win in all other cases. Some would consider it bad form to let your real life mental stats override your character's in terms of "rping your character out".
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abby
Old School
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Post by abby on Feb 16, 2019 11:02:28 GMT -5
Also people shouldn’t ignore your non-engine scores. I can’t ignore “knockdown” so you shouldn’t be able to ignore “persuade” when reasonably and well role-played.
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Nicoen
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Post by Nicoen on Feb 16, 2019 11:05:18 GMT -5
Persuade and Intimidate were never designed to be used on other players. They are for dealing with NPC's and that's it.
You are welcome to roll it when trying to do either against a PC, but it is up to them if they will take it into considerations or not.
The skills were designed to be against a set DC by the DM, not as an opposed check between players.
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Post by Vaertai on Feb 16, 2019 12:39:42 GMT -5
Persuade and Intimidate were never designed to be used on other players. They are for dealing with NPC's and that's it. You are welcome to roll it when trying to do either against a PC, but it is up to them if they will take it into considerations or not. The skills were designed to be against a set DC by the DM, not as an opposed check between players. This. In all my years I had -never- had a player respond to a pursuade or intimidate roll in any fashion but ignoring it. I cant count how many times I have had Az raise his voice (doeant happen often so thats scary enough he is id think), roll a 40+ intimidate, and just get met with scoffs and being told to keep it down or something. So I gave up using them with out a dm present.
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Post by tingly on Feb 16, 2019 14:02:11 GMT -5
I'm not opposed to respecting the points people have put into social skills, in theory. That's an investment that ought to mean something. However, I've seen people abruptly roll persuade a few times where there was one or both of these problems;
-Their objective in rolling the skill was unclear. How can I portray a successful skill roll when I don't know what that means in context?
-Subject to opinion, but them rolling the skill doesn't match their roleplay. If a stranger comes out tersely barking demands, and then shows that they are mechanically supposed to be persuasive, I'm not sure how to read that. Did they make some kind of face that makes me want to help them? If I can't seem to reconcile those things, I react to the roleplay by default because I know what I'm dealing with.
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abby
Old School
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Post by abby on Feb 16, 2019 14:36:39 GMT -5
If you role play your persuade or other social skills appropriately, there is no excuse for ignoring them. Period. This idea that they are for NPCs only is ridiculous. We don't ignore bluff on disguises. And it's extremely inconsiderate to ignore intimidate and persuade. This is something the server has addressed lots of times in the past. As has been rehashed a million times, use of these skills MUST be accompanied by good role playing. You can't just toss the rolls out there and expect results. I find its a great idea to send people a tell with Abby, saying, "Abby is trained at persuasion and she's trying to use her body-language and tone to help persuade you, can I make a check to influence?" I have never once had a PC say no. Ultimately it's up to the player to decide how "persuadable" within reason that they are to an idea, and obviously you shouldn't be persuaded into ridiculous things that you would never do, however these skill points I invested are 100% as valid as your tumble, spot, hide & MS, and all the rest. I can't ignore your knock downs and hide rolls, and you shouldn't ignore my social skills. As role players on a role playing server, we have to acknowledge that our character sheets and the scores on them represent our CHARACTERs ability to call bluffs, resist persuasion as well as spot sneaks and tumble out of the way of AoOs. If you can say "My character has indominable will (w/ 8 wis) and can never be influenced by your charismatic master speech-craft," I should be able to say "My PC has the eyes of an eagle and the ears of a fox (w/ 0 ranks) and I easily spot you hiding there in the shadows." The key to using social skills smoothly is to be respectful of who you're using them on and ask permission. No one likes to be forced with something they may not understand it their responsibility to RP.
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Post by Southpaw on Feb 16, 2019 14:51:21 GMT -5
If you role play your persuade or other social skills appropriately, there is no excuse for ignoring them. Period. This idea that they are for NPCs only is ridiculous. We don't ignore bluff on disguises. And it's extremely inconsiderate to ignore intimidate and persuade. This is something the server has addressed lots of times in the past. As has been rehashed a million times, use of these skills MUST be accompanied by good role playing. You can't just toss the rolls out there and expect results. I find its a great idea to send people a tell with Abby, saying, "Abby is trained at persuasion and she's trying to use her body-language and tone to help persuade you, can I make a check to influence?" I have never once had a PC say no. Ultimately it's up to the player to decide how "persuadable" within reason that they are to an idea, and obviously you shouldn't be persuaded into ridiculous things that you would never do, however these skill points I invested are 100% as valid as your tumble, spot, hide & MS, and all the rest. I can't ignore your knock downs and hide rolls, and you shouldn't ignore my social skills. As role players on a role playing server, we have to acknowledge that our character sheets and the scores on them represent our CHARACTERs ability to call bluffs, resist persuasion as well as spot sneaks and tumble out of the way of AoOs. If you can say "My character has indominable will (w/ 8 wis) and can never be influenced by your charismatic master speech-craft," I should be able to say "My PC has the eyes of an eagle and the ears of a fox (w/ 0 ranks) and I easily spot you hiding there in the shadows." The key to using social skills smoothly is to be respectful of who you're using them on and ask permission. No one likes to be forced with something they may not understand it their responsibility to RP. The difference is that social skills affect decision making, which is a matter of role play, while going flat on your back from a knockdown or spotting a hiding character isn't a decision. Social skills aren't meant for use against PC's, while knockdown, hide, and attack rolls are. Even DM's don't drop an intimidate or persuade check on you from an NPC and then try to dictate your decision making. If it's not good enough for a DM to do that, then it's not good enough for a player, either.
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Post by malclave on Feb 16, 2019 15:16:38 GMT -5
Furthermore, the non-social skills have DCs to be met, and defined effects. Social skills are a lot more vague.
The rolls (and stat/ skill points used to get to those rolls) should be respected, but they just can't be treated with the same precision as more combat-oriented aspects in the engine.
Example... I once had a character RP getting into my face and making an intimidate roll. I had no idea what the goal was. How would you set the DC for the skill use?
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 16, 2019 16:06:38 GMT -5
The d&d social DC table is entirely based upon the current opinon of the character and the opinon you want to elicite for that moment. However it is entirely described from a PC cs NPC perspective within the game rules. This is a part d&d has never been really good at as social strictures cannot be hard numbered.
I agree however that if you make a character with the intents to be: threatening, persuasive or a liar. Incest the points into the actions to at back up your role play from the only mechanical vestige it exist. (And poorly exists i must note refer again to the above)
As southpaw brought up. If you simply fully pure numbers of another's actions your story path becomes dictated to. Rather than presented with an option.
Now sure. No one wants to be intimidated (no clue why there. Power dream likely) or persuaded to leace behind their core tenants of a character. So like most things i advocate "use it as a reason to try" not "a reason I must succeed"
You are still role playing if you're acting out the skills of your character and dice checks are forever best handled by the DM to interpret.
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abby
Old School
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Post by abby on Feb 16, 2019 16:40:54 GMT -5
Hold on, if you fail a will save vs am intimidate check, you’re considered shaken and intimidated and your reaction should be to, at the least, become neutral. Of course no one likes to be intimidated... no one likes to be knocked down or miss an attack either, but just like you have a discipline skill and ab, you also have a will save. If you dump-stated wisdom, why do you think you can RP fearlessness? When a mummy scares the crap out of you, you don’t have a “choice” about panicking, so why do you get one when someone beat your will save with their CHARISMA based intimidate check? I emphasize charisma because people fail to understand what intimidate is. It’s more like a threat-oriented bluff than just “getting in your face and rolling intimidate”.
When an amazing speaker convinced you to buy his hair tonic, your character doesn’t KNOW that this choice was made for him by the slick social skills of the salesman, he persuaded you into agreeing with him. It’s considerate to other players to at least give some gravity to these skills. You will never be asked to do unreasonable things and If you are, feel free to ignore, but for the sake of being consistent to he numbers on your sheet you should try to respect them.
We already do this for disguise an bluff and we USED to respect these scores the last time I was active here. Not sure what changed.
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Post by mandene on Feb 16, 2019 17:07:11 GMT -5
Hold on, if you fail a will save vs am intimidate check, you’re considered shaken and intimidated and your reaction should be to, at the least, become neutral. Of course no one likes to be intimidated... no one likes to be knocked down or miss an attack either, but just like you have a discipline skill and ab, you also have a will save. If you dump-stated wisdom, why do you think you can RP fearlessness? When a mummy scares the crap out of you, you don’t have a “choice” about panicking, so why do you get one when someone beat your will save with their CHARISMA based intimidate check? I emphasize charisma because people fail to understand what intimidate is. It’s more like a threat-oriented bluff than just “getting in your face and rolling intimidate”. When an amazing speaker convinced you to buy his hair tonic, your character doesn’t KNOW that this choice was made for him by the slick social skills of the salesman, he persuaded you into agreeing with him. It’s considerate to other players to at least give some gravity to these skills. You will never be asked to do unreasonable things and If you are, feel free to ignore, but for the sake of being consistent to he numbers on your sheet you should try to respect them. We already do this for disguise an bluff and we USED to respect these scores the last time I was active here. Not sure what changed. My best example of this not being as easy as you make it out to be had happened to a character of mine on another server. A guy she never met just walked to her, asked her to sleep with him and rolled a stupid high Pesuade. My character had at that time been married for a couple of weeks. I resolved it by telling him that at this time, based on the situation at hand and my character's alignment the modifiers to my roll would be so much up the whazoo that he had no chance in hell. Basically, the character that isn't reacting to you could have situational-based super high modifiers to his/her roll. That's why you can't force someone to just roll against you or even acknowledge your roll. Maybe they just faced a troll the size of a barn - your puny intimidation would mean nothing, no matter what.
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Post by Southpaw on Feb 16, 2019 17:17:36 GMT -5
Hold on, if you fail a will save vs am intimidate check, you’re considered shaken and intimidated and your reaction should be to, at the least, become neutral. Of course no one likes to be intimidated... no one likes to be knocked down or miss an attack either, but just like you have a discipline skill and ab, you also have a will save. If you dump-stated wisdom, why do you think you can RP fearlessness? When a mummy scares the crap out of you, you don’t have a “choice” about panicking, so why do you get one when someone beat your will save with their CHARISMA based intimidate check? I emphasize charisma because people fail to understand what intimidate is. It’s more like a threat-oriented bluff than just “getting in your face and rolling intimidate”. When an amazing speaker convinced you to buy his hair tonic, your character doesn’t KNOW that this choice was made for him by the slick social skills of the salesman, he persuaded you into agreeing with him. It’s considerate to other players to at least give some gravity to these skills. You will never be asked to do unreasonable things and If you are, feel free to ignore, but for the sake of being consistent to he numbers on your sheet you should try to respect them. We already do this for disguise an bluff and we USED to respect these scores the last time I was active here. Not sure what changed. Mummy fear is a magical compulsion. It's not an intimidate skill. Persuade also is not magical domination. Choice is not removed. As for the game mechanical state of shaken, that still doesn't mean you do what the intimidating person wants. You might stammer and stutter, but still say, "S-s-s-tt-t-t-ick it in y-y-y-your ear!" The stammering and stuttering might be a respect of the roll, but you can't use social rolls to actually force someone to do what you want them to. Even against NPC's, you're not magically compelling them.
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perspicacity
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Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing. -Dali
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Post by perspicacity on Feb 16, 2019 17:36:42 GMT -5
Furthermore, the non-social skills have DCs to be met, and defined effects. Social skills are a lot more vague. The rolls (and stat/ skill points used to get to those rolls) should be respected, but they just can't be treated with the same precision as more combat-oriented aspects in the engine. Example... I once had a character RP getting into my face and making an intimidate roll. I had no idea what the goal was. How would you set the DC for the skill use? Intimidate (CHA) Use this skill to get a bully to back down, to frighten an opponent, or to make a prisoner give you the information you want. Intimidation includes verbal threats and body language. Check: You can change another's behavior with a successful check. Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target's modified level check (1d20 + Character Level or Hit Dice + target's Wisdom bonus [if any] + target's modifiers on saves versus fear) If you beat the target's check result you may treat the target as friendly but only for the purpose of actions while it remains intimidated. (That is the target retains its normal attitude, but will advise, offer limited help or advocate on your behalf while intimidated. DnD PHB 3.5 Now, this is only the mechanics for the check, its also subject to set and setting modifiers applicable to Diplomacy checks. (Think common sense.) Like intimidating a person surrounded by allies or right in front of a guard, etc, are going to have negative modifiers on the DC. The roleplay of the intimidation should play a role as well. One futher note, -after- the effects of the intimidate (duration while in presence and d6 x 10 minutes after) expire, the target shifts one class in the negative direction. i.e to unfriendly or if already unfriendly, to hostile.
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Nicoen
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Post by Nicoen on Feb 16, 2019 17:39:40 GMT -5
Yes there is an excuse for ignoring Persuade and Intimidate rolls used versus other players.
First of all from a game design perspective it's super unbalanced. You claim the roll is supposed to be Intimidate vs Will save and already there the balance is skewed. It is A LOT easier to get your skills high compared to your saves, so a roll like this should NEVER be Skill vs Saves. That is the reason not a SINGLE skill in NWN is contesting anything but OTHER skills(Pickpocket vs Spot, Taunt vs Concentration etc.) You can't compare this to Knockdown as that is Ab vs Skill(meaning the defender actually has the advantage)
Secondly if you want to persuade one of my characters it's entirely reliant on the context. I'm not gonna let your numbers decide anything unless you present a compelling argument, read the situation and use that or find me in a situation where my character is at a disadvantage already etc. Regarding intimidation it is entirely up to the situation, and again it's gonna be about 100% about context and your actions/words rather than some number you roll. If you hit the right spot for my characters I will gladly let you both persuade and intimidate them, and I will also take your skillpoints invested into them into consideration for things such as duration of the effect. But it will never just be a roll of the dice that determines it.
Giving Persuade and Intimidate the power to dictate other PC's minds and beliefs is probably one of the worst things I can imagine happening on FRC. There's a reason most of the popular Pen And Paper roleplaying systems(Dnd, Pathfinder, Call of Cthulhu etc.) has no game mechanics for direct control and influence of another PC's ideals, beliefs, thoughts and intentions outside obviously magical or supernatural effects that are limited in resources and obviously hostile(Dominate Person for example). The day another player can control my character's actions in a situation through a single non-resource draining roll of the dice is the day it stops being a ROLEPLAYING game for me.
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Post by Southpaw on Feb 16, 2019 17:59:29 GMT -5
It is not the spirit of the game to dictate RP to other player characters. If this were used as social PVP, a player whose character was stronger socially could dictate every party decision to their partymates all campaign long, and the DM would end up either putting a stop to it or having people stop playing. Skill description being as it is, it is unspoken it's not for PVP.
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perspicacity
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Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing. -Dali
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Post by perspicacity on Feb 16, 2019 18:21:33 GMT -5
I disagree that its not for PvP but would suggest that it should be participatory and roleplay > rollplay. As far as a PC using the skill to long-term dictate behaviours to partymates, intimidation has an explicit diminishing returns aspect.
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Post by malclave on Feb 16, 2019 18:51:34 GMT -5
Well, Shaken is just -2 on various roles; that aspect of the skill is meant for combat use. It's also not a Will save, but a modified level check.
For noncombat use, to influence someone's actions, it has the added benefit of changing the target to unfriendly once the intimidate wears off. So more PvP down the road, most likely.
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Post by Warlord on Feb 16, 2019 18:55:28 GMT -5
As far as the import of physical attractiveness to Charisma is concerned, I'd just point out that a Chort, or pig-faced demon, has a higher Charisma than a Solar. It's a setting where the depraved and the debased may find beauty in the eye of the literal beholder. What may seem silly and unattractive to our modern day standards, just simply won't apply to this fantasy setting. Things that attract need not also copulate, as a side note. The Chort having higher charisma than the solar really isn't surprising. A dwarf, hin, and human may breed with a dragon, afterall. Of course, insofar the dragon finds the mate worthy. How is a scale, an elemental fundamentum, or any other such draconic properties ever attractive? Well .. some denizens of Faerun, seem to think so. Someone very evil might breed with your adorable Chort there depending on their own agenda and personal plans, nasty kinks, and general WIS/INT to help with decision making. Weird to us, perhaps is normalcy to the denizens of Faerun.
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perspicacity
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Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing. -Dali
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Post by perspicacity on Feb 16, 2019 19:05:06 GMT -5
As far as the import of physical attractiveness to Charisma is concerned, I'd just point out that a Chort, or pig-faced demon, has a higher Charisma than a Solar. It's a setting where the depraved and the debased may find beauty in the eye of the literal beholder. What may seem silly and unattractive to our modern day standards, just simply won't apply to this fantasy setting. Things that attract need not also copulate, as a side note. The Chort having higher charisma than the solar really isn't surprising. A dwarf, hin, and human may breed with a dragon, afterall. Of course, insofar the dragon finds the mate worthy. How is a scale, an elemental fundamentum, or any other such draconic properties ever attractive? Well .. some denizens of Faerun, seem to think so. Someone very evil might breed with your adorable Chort there depending on their own agenda and personal plans, nasty kinks, and general WIS/INT to help with decision making. Weird to us, perhaps is normalcy to the denizens of Faerun. In other words, subjective. That was my point.
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Post by Warlord on Feb 16, 2019 19:07:27 GMT -5
It's a setting where the depraved and the debased may find beauty in the eye of the literal beholder. What may seem silly and unattractive to our modern day standards, just simply won't apply to this fantasy setting. Things that attract need not also copulate, as a side note. The Chort having higher charisma than the solar really isn't surprising. A dwarf, hin, and human may breed with a dragon, afterall. Of course, insofar the dragon finds the mate worthy. How is a scale, an elemental fundamentum, or any other such draconic properties ever attractive? Well .. some denizens of Faerun, seem to think so. Someone very evil might breed with your adorable Chort there depending on their own agenda and personal plans, nasty kinks, and general WIS/INT to help with decision making. Weird to us, perhaps is normalcy to the denizens of Faerun. In other words, subjective. That was my point. Of course, and it will be, but a positive charisma /will/ be needed to be less stinky, ugly piggie-chortie! Hmm, maybe Tal's pc of 6 should dress as one.
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abby
Old School
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Post by abby on Feb 16, 2019 19:16:45 GMT -5
Right, no one's saying these skill are supposed to drive your RP, they are there to give your character realistic reactions to the character they are dealing with. They tell you that there is body language, social ques and expressions that we cannot see in 2 dimensional text. They don't replace the need to roleplay, and as to the examples above like the: "walks up and says come sleep with me, rolls big persuade" they cannot be used to make you do ridiculous crap that your character couldn't really be persuaded into. That said, you might consider being persuaded into infidelity over a long series of roleplay events and the persuade skill could certainly help you influence your decision. I've certainly used it as a factor in people trying to talk Abby into things. Most often, if I'm on the fence about something, I'll request a persuade check from the player to make up my mind. Its respectful to the sacrifices they made to achieve their skills.
Someone beat me to it and posted the intimidate skill above. This tells you that resisting intimidate is a wisdom based character level check, so you're not going to run away with it on skills. Your defense against intimidate is d20 + your hit dice + wisdom mod + fear based modifiers you may have. That will be tough to beat, even for a like-level. Modifiers can adjust this, such as having your homies there to back you up or being in a safe place, etc. Those modifiers you can come up with friendly tells to the other player. But if the intimidate is successful you should back down and act shaken. Unless you're a Paladin or have some magical protection, you are NOT immune to fear. You'd be exploiting to pretend otherwise. But it also depends heavily on the context. If someone you have personally seen in battle and KNOW to a weak compared to you tries to intimidate you by talking up his martial ability and how he's going to kill you with his sword, OBVIOUSLY he can't intimidate you in this way, no matter what he rolls, because you know for a fact he's bluffing and can't back up his thread. However if you don't know and you fail your wisdom based level check, you're shaken. It doesn't mean you can't come stab them later, or find out he's full of crap and take your vengeance, in fact you should probably be hostile after you recover from the initial intimidation.
People saying its not in the spirit to dictate others RP, well its not in the spirit of the game to ignore people's skills and assign immunities to their skills that you don't have either. We are tying in a text format and lack the ability to display these social skills in a meaningful way. If you've ever been persuaded or convinced of something by a TRULY master of speech-craft, you'd know what I mean. Some people have amazing skill at getting people to think and do what they want. Reading flat text can't encompass this, however when you see them roll a high persuade skill with all the accompanying and responsible role playing that should go along with it, you really should honor that sacrifice and picture in your head that you're talking to someone with some actual skills at guiding your opinion on reasonable matters.
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abby
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Post by abby on Feb 16, 2019 19:32:49 GMT -5
Obviously the "physical attractiveness" aspect of Charisma isn't always going to translate across species. Those pig demons aren't going to be considered of above average beauty to humans, even if they tend to be attractive to each other, but they can still certainly embody the other aspects of Charisma to others. As demons, maybe they are incredible at tempting mortals with silky lies and promises of power, lust, wealth etc.
For me its no concern if you play ugly with high Charisma, its only a problem if you play hawt with a super low charisma. Basically you can sink the comeliness side of it all you want in favor of having a larger-than-life personal magnetism, but it doesn't really go the other way. I can suspend my disbelief for about a 2 point differential.
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perspicacity
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Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing. -Dali
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Post by perspicacity on Feb 16, 2019 19:33:10 GMT -5
Right, no one's saying these skill are supposed to drive your RP, they are there to give your character realistic reactions to the character they are dealing with. They tell you that there is body language, social ques and expressions that we cannot see in 2 dimensional text. They don't replace the need to roleplay, and as to the examples above like the: "walks up and says come sleep with me, rolls big persuade" they cannot be used to make you do ridiculous crap that your character couldn't really be persuaded into. That said, you might consider being persuaded into infidelity over a long series of roleplay events and the persuade skill could certainly help you influence your decision. I've certainly used it as a factor in people trying to talk Abby into things. Most often, if I'm on the fence about something, I'll request a persuade check from the player to make up my mind. Its respectful to the sacrifices they made to achieve their skills. Someone beat me to it and posted the intimidate skill above. This tells you that resisting intimidate is a wisdom based character level check, so you're not going to run away with it on skills. Your defense against intimidate is d20 + your hit dice + wisdom mod + fear based modifiers you may have. That will be tough to beat, even for a like-level. Modifiers can adjust this, such as having your homies there to back you up or being in a safe place, etc. Those modifiers you can come up with friendly tells to the other player. But if the intimidate is successful you should back down and act shaken. Unless you're a Paladin or have some magical protection, you are NOT immune to fear. You'd be exploiting to pretend otherwise. But it also depends heavily on the context. If someone you have personally seen in battle and KNOW to a weak compared to you tries to intimidate you by talking up his martial ability and how he's going to kill you with his sword, OBVIOUSLY he can't intimidate you in this way, no matter what he rolls, because you know for a fact he's bluffing and can't back up his thread. However if you don't know and you fail your wisdom based level check, you're shaken. It doesn't mean you can't come stab them later, or find out he's full of crap and take your vengeance, in fact you should probably be hostile after you recover from the initial intimidation. People saying its not in the spirit to dictate others RP, well its not in the spirit of the game to ignore people's skills and assign immunities to their skills that you don't have either. We are tying in a text format and lack the ability to display these social skills in a meaningful way. If you've ever been persuaded or convinced of something by a TRULY master of speech-craft, you'd know what I mean. Some people have amazing skill at getting people to think and do what they want. Reading flat text can't encompass this, however when you see them roll a high persuade skill with all the accompanying and responsible role playing that should go along with it, you really should honor that sacrifice and picture in your head that you're talking to someone with some actual skills at guiding your opinion on reasonable matters. I agree with this and will say, in my experience, emoting the intim/persuade/bluff, then sending a tell explaining intent, suggesting possible modifiers and inviting feedback -before- the roll goes a long way toward getting positive RP.
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 16, 2019 21:07:12 GMT -5
I will note again. That the intimidate skill runs off the guidelines for diplomacy. Its where you get the misc modifiers.
Both assume use against an NPC not a player character. As the game assumes a table drawn group of players where argument indeed is resolved by the full emotive capacity of your personage.
I concur however that due to the text based nature. Is someone has a high skill. You SHOULD HONOR THE IDEAL. That doesn't mean go blindly. As Abby repeats the skill roll should be the FINAL act done to help relay the capacity of the argument. You're still in your rights to find a reason the argument doesn't sway. But indeed no one should pretend they are fearless or utterly unwavering short of zealotry and full moral opposition. I.E you can't persuade a paladin to comit heresy without a REAL good rasin to offer.
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Post by Southpaw on Feb 16, 2019 21:16:30 GMT -5
Right, no one's saying these skill are supposed to drive your RP, they are there to give your character realistic reactions to the character they are dealing with. They tell you that there is body language, social ques and expressions that we cannot see in 2 dimensional text. They don't replace the need to roleplay, and as to the examples above like the: "walks up and says come sleep with me, rolls big persuade" they cannot be used to make you do ridiculous crap that your character couldn't really be persuaded into. That said, you might consider being persuaded into infidelity over a long series of roleplay events and the persuade skill could certainly help you influence your decision. I've certainly used it as a factor in people trying to talk Abby into things. Most often, if I'm on the fence about something, I'll request a persuade check from the player to make up my mind. Its respectful to the sacrifices they made to achieve their skills. Someone beat me to it and posted the intimidate skill above. This tells you that resisting intimidate is a wisdom based character level check, so you're not going to run away with it on skills. Your defense against intimidate is d20 + your hit dice + wisdom mod + fear based modifiers you may have. That will be tough to beat, even for a like-level. Modifiers can adjust this, such as having your homies there to back you up or being in a safe place, etc. Those modifiers you can come up with friendly tells to the other player. But if the intimidate is successful you should back down and act shaken. Unless you're a Paladin or have some magical protection, you are NOT immune to fear. You'd be exploiting to pretend otherwise. But it also depends heavily on the context. If someone you have personally seen in battle and KNOW to a weak compared to you tries to intimidate you by talking up his martial ability and how he's going to kill you with his sword, OBVIOUSLY he can't intimidate you in this way, no matter what he rolls, because you know for a fact he's bluffing and can't back up his thread. However if you don't know and you fail your wisdom based level check, you're shaken. It doesn't mean you can't come stab them later, or find out he's full of crap and take your vengeance, in fact you should probably be hostile after you recover from the initial intimidation. People saying its not in the spirit to dictate others RP, well its not in the spirit of the game to ignore people's skills and assign immunities to their skills that you don't have either. We are tying in a text format and lack the ability to display these social skills in a meaningful way. If you've ever been persuaded or convinced of something by a TRULY master of speech-craft, you'd know what I mean. Some people have amazing skill at getting people to think and do what they want. Reading flat text can't encompass this, however when you see them roll a high persuade skill with all the accompanying and responsible role playing that should go along with it, you really should honor that sacrifice and picture in your head that you're talking to someone with some actual skills at guiding your opinion on reasonable matters. Some of the things you are saying sound to me like you're missing the message a little bit, and it might be because I'm not making myself clear. To me, it's about role playing your stats, basically. If a player effectively role plays their persuasion or intimidation or what ever, then in all likelihood, I'll probably actually feel the effects and go along without a die roll. If they botch the role play, then no die roll is going to save the performance. I feel that role playing the other character is the other player's job, and it's not my job to imagine what their character is doing for them, high die roll or not. So for me, it's not a matter of ignoring social skill levels. It's the fact that if the other player plays their stats effectively, the roll probably won't be needed, and if they don't, the check won't save them. The check is only needed if I'm on the fence, in which case I will ask for a roll, and I'll probably let them pass with either a good roll OR just having a good modifier out of respect for the skill level. I'm not here to shut down everyone else's role play, I just want to see a person role play what their character is supposed to be doing.
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Post by DOT on Feb 16, 2019 22:19:38 GMT -5
Hi folks looking for incite to how people rp or have rp'd their low charisma characters both the physical and personality aspects. Thank you much. Hey all, thanks for all the input. I got what I needed out of it. Cheers!
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abby
Old School
Posts: 323
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Post by abby on Feb 17, 2019 1:26:18 GMT -5
Right, no one's saying these skill are supposed to drive your RP, they are there to give your character realistic reactions to the character they are dealing with. They tell you that there is body language, social ques and expressions that we cannot see in 2 dimensional text. They don't replace the need to roleplay, and as to the examples above like the: "walks up and says come sleep with me, rolls big persuade" they cannot be used to make you do ridiculous crap that your character couldn't really be persuaded into. That said, you might consider being persuaded into infidelity over a long series of roleplay events and the persuade skill could certainly help you influence your decision. I've certainly used it as a factor in people trying to talk Abby into things. Most often, if I'm on the fence about something, I'll request a persuade check from the player to make up my mind. Its respectful to the sacrifices they made to achieve their skills. Someone beat me to it and posted the intimidate skill above. This tells you that resisting intimidate is a wisdom based character level check, so you're not going to run away with it on skills. Your defense against intimidate is d20 + your hit dice + wisdom mod + fear based modifiers you may have. That will be tough to beat, even for a like-level. Modifiers can adjust this, such as having your homies there to back you up or being in a safe place, etc. Those modifiers you can come up with friendly tells to the other player. But if the intimidate is successful you should back down and act shaken. Unless you're a Paladin or have some magical protection, you are NOT immune to fear. You'd be exploiting to pretend otherwise. But it also depends heavily on the context. If someone you have personally seen in battle and KNOW to a weak compared to you tries to intimidate you by talking up his martial ability and how he's going to kill you with his sword, OBVIOUSLY he can't intimidate you in this way, no matter what he rolls, because you know for a fact he's bluffing and can't back up his thread. However if you don't know and you fail your wisdom based level check, you're shaken. It doesn't mean you can't come stab them later, or find out he's full of crap and take your vengeance, in fact you should probably be hostile after you recover from the initial intimidation. People saying its not in the spirit to dictate others RP, well its not in the spirit of the game to ignore people's skills and assign immunities to their skills that you don't have either. We are tying in a text format and lack the ability to display these social skills in a meaningful way. If you've ever been persuaded or convinced of something by a TRULY master of speech-craft, you'd know what I mean. Some people have amazing skill at getting people to think and do what they want. Reading flat text can't encompass this, however when you see them roll a high persuade skill with all the accompanying and responsible role playing that should go along with it, you really should honor that sacrifice and picture in your head that you're talking to someone with some actual skills at guiding your opinion on reasonable matters. Some of the things you are saying sound to me like you're missing the message a little bit, and it might be because I'm not making myself clear. To me, it's about role playing your stats, basically. If a player effectively role plays their persuasion or intimidation or what ever, then in all likelihood, I'll probably actually feel the effects and go along without a die roll. If they botch the role play, then no die roll is going to save the performance. I feel that role playing the other character is the other player's job, and it's not my job to imagine what their character is doing for them, high die roll or not. So for me, it's not a matter of ignoring social skill levels. It's the fact that if the other player plays their stats effectively, the roll probably won't be needed, and if they don't, the check won't save them. The check is only needed if I'm on the fence, in which case I will ask for a roll, and I'll probably let them pass with either a good roll OR just having a good modifier out of respect for the skill level. I'm not here to shut down everyone else's role play, I just want to see a person role play what their character is supposed to be doing. But I, as a player, may not have the linguistic skills of my trained diplomat character, and even if I did, all of those little details that make a speaker great are lost in two-dimensional typing. By rolling the skill, you know full well you're talking to a trained diplomat and should take that into consideration, adding weight to the roleplaying as a result. Conversely, some people are great writers and intelligent, but dump-stat Charisma and took 0 ranks in Persuade, therefore asking for persuade gives you a big clue when they are overplaying their PC's eloquence and you should feel free to keep it real by saying there was something about their delivery that irked you. You should be role playing your skills. 0 charisma and skill means you don't start RPing to be some master linguist/card shark/minstrel, ect. Scores keep us real and down to earth. Keep us from being immune to fear and pain and impossible trick, etc. I personally rarely use them, and do mostly use them for NPCs. Though there are times when they are relevant. I recommend never spamming them. I especially encourage others to use their skills on me when I'm on the fence about something and I want to let the dice decide for me. I will let the player I'm talking to decide the matter with a skill check. I think I know where this resistance to the idea letting others use their hard-gotten skills from. There are a lot of people who really butcher these skills and sour the well for the rest of us. For example, a person might walk up and throw out some bogus argument you know for a FACT is *bovine manure*, then drop a random wisdom roll to show everyone he's super wise, and therefore must be right, as if the character having a high wis some how means the player can't draw incorrect conclusions. Or name any hundred examples of people using these skills irresponsibly. But you're not going to find that with good role players who have experience using these skills responsibly. I can't stress enough, people who have invested in this stuff have often sacrificed combat and/or utility skills and feats for them. When you say you're not going to take their skills into consideration, you're essentially taking big parts of their character and telling them its invalid. That's not considerate or fair to them.
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Post by hellscream123 on Feb 17, 2019 1:39:22 GMT -5
As always its permanently contextual and someone has the rights to call the set up of a skills application wrong for the circumstances in question. But we've all already agreed.
A. Not to ignore abilities or overplay ones you don't have. B.that context creates the best uses and that all things should be done with fairness and fun in mind. And C. We are all attracted ro pig faced demons more than angelic solars.
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