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Post by Vaxel on Feb 11, 2019 11:51:20 GMT -5
Heya, Just wanted to see what everyone else thought about this new update, and sort of continuing from this thread. So, I'm not entirely sure how long FRC (post vault wipe) actually existed for, however it's been a fair few years. During a lot of this time we've seen many characters level up, perhaps reach epics, then try out something new and fresh. Perhaps inspired by a new idea or build they can RP around. Fast forward to a year or so ago, and we have our first player who reaches the level 40 marker. And as mentioned in the linked thread above, this player is comparatively newer to the server than the other vets that have existed and played in FRC years before. Now, I can understand the thought process and decision making by reviewing this information, but at the same time, I struggle to see why one instance justifies a re-balance, or at least of this grandeur. I'm of the belief that the speed of a characters level progression is entirely dependent on the time and motivation of the individual. If a player has a part time job, works at home, is looking after kids, whatever, and happen to have a fair amount of time on their hands to play on their favorite server, then you can bet their bottom they're going to be playing, RPing, and of course dungeoneering. With that belief in mind, we can all agree that hitting the level 40 marker is -not- easy. We've all played FRC, we all know how it goes. There is a reason we only have one level 40. That player took the massive amount of time and dedication to work towards that goal. (I understand that reaching level 40 shouldn't be what to work for, and I agree, but that shouldn't get in the way of someone following the Golden Rule)
Other people however... are much more restricted on time. Either from long working hours, several commitments, and so on. And now because of this re-balance, they get affected the worst.
Personally, I felt like the server was fine how it was before the Quest Reward Re-balance, as with all the years that passed, there were few who broke past the level 30 barrier without throwing in a good few years of hard work. But hey, that's just me.
Feel free to discuss your thoughts and opinions here!
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abby
Old School
Posts: 323
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Post by abby on Feb 11, 2019 12:04:30 GMT -5
That’s a tough one. Right now NW is booming because of EE, so the high levels aren’t so bad, but that giant gulf in levels has always seemed a game breaker to me when it “wasn’t” booming because older servers usually had mostly high level PCs, and new players would find themselves alone most of the time due to the immense power-gap between levels. Honestly it’s why I stopped playing in the first place. I could never find groups reliably and spent too much time sitting around alone because either no one was within 10 levels of Abby, or they’d take too much of an xp hit to bring her.
Personally I love much much lower level caps (10ish) with only feats going up after a certain level, but I get most people would implode at the thought. But wow the ease of finding groups, the reasonable level of power between the strongest and weakest PCs, the easy with which DMs can tailor events for everyone, the vast larger array of dungeons everyone can visit... anyway...
With NW booming and a huge influx of players,the gap probably isn’t terrible and the speed people advance isn’t as big a deal.
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Post by Vaxel on Feb 11, 2019 12:17:01 GMT -5
Low levels are mostly unaffected by the update, as it seems to support progression up to pre-epics.
The biggest concern is the stunted progression after that point, what with XP rewards cut beyond half in certain scenarios.
Lets take the Hullack Ghost tower as an example. Not a simple quest to do, and also by no means a guaranteed win due to the RNG levers... The reward for all the effort and resources used to complete it used to be 800xp, however now it appears to be 150xp. That's the same amount as what is given after bonking a bunch of Ogres west of Suzail.
The update is going to encourage yet more epics to scour the lower level dungeons in the hopes of getting whatever XP they can muster, which is frowned upon by the community.
Yet an epic cannot find it being much worth trying to face off against a tower of ghosts, traps, and mages when the reward can be found in a much easier and simpler place. Not to mention that many epics cannot solo dungeons of their level alone, so when without a group, what else can they do besides twiddle their thumbs in Greatgaunt?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 12:27:07 GMT -5
I do not particularly enjoy this rebalancing of the quest XP, but on the other hand, I'm aware that it is very easy to reach epic levels. I have characters invested in DM run plots and I mostly go out on adventures when I feel like it. I think this nerf is mostly to slow down players who's only desire is to reach epic levels as fast as possible.
I am torn on this, however. I'm not sure if such a hefty nerf is a rebalance or a punishment. One of the things that confuses me about the situation is this: if epic levels are supposed to be special, why can players level on their own until lvl 40? Why not have a soft level cap at 20 and to reach epic levels, DM event XP is required? If a DM could shed some light on this, I'd appreciate it.
I think what irks me about this is the lack of discussion before the implementation of the rebalancing, then again, I do not spend most of my time on the forums.
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Post by Lady Frost on Feb 11, 2019 12:39:13 GMT -5
Yet an epic cannot find it being much worth trying to face off against a tower of ghosts, traps, and mages when the reward can be found in a much easier and simpler place. Not to mention that many epics cannot solo dungeons of their level alone, so when without a group, what else can they do besides twiddle their thumbs in Greatgaunt? I think this mindset might be one of the reasons this was implemented. I can't think of the last time I adventured with Zodkia anywhere based on how much XP I'd get. If players are farming Quest XP over and over every week they're probably not on the right server. FRC has always been silently proud of its "leveling slowly" reputation for epics - which has slowly disappeared over the past 6 or so years - and I'm not at all surprised to see a change made. I don't understand what soloing has to do with this.
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Feb 11, 2019 12:51:22 GMT -5
So this is where the regret on deleveling your character starts to settle in. Though to be fair, several people must have gotten a copy of a guide to hitting high epics on FRC not long ago. For a while I recall seeing brand new characters on the server then seeing them doing the Hullack dungeons not long after.
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Post by Vaxel on Feb 11, 2019 12:59:02 GMT -5
I don't understand what soloing has to do with this. A European player in their epics has quite the trouble finding others to adventure with, so if they wanted to make some lions or progress a little on a day they have free time to do so, they are left at an impasse during their only available time-slot if they are unable to solo. Basically, I'm saying that leveling for those players is slow enough already due to such dependencies.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 13:15:56 GMT -5
It took me 2.5 years to get to level 20. I just assumed other more veteran players knew the tricks to leveling quickly that I was not aware of. Doesn't matter to me, I don't even know why anyone would want to get to 30. Good luck finding a group to party with most days at that level.
Frankly I'm surprised that people see quest XP as such a significant part of the overall XP situation. I've gotten rewards much higher than 800 just from a single DM event. I also would have assumed that the monster kills in a 2 to 3 hour adventure would dwarf the quest XP.
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Post by MTGPackFoils on Feb 11, 2019 13:34:57 GMT -5
Honestly I think the low XP rewards on server built quests may keep people away from leaving Greatgaunt until they have a party, DM ran event, or guild. Everyone talks about RP RP RP yet I never see people hang out in Dhedluk to “RP” as often as I do Greatgaunt.
By making the XP match the difficulty of the quest it gives players incentive to actually explore other areas. Players also need to understand that D&D is a group based game, not a solo adventure game.
Once players understand they can get more mileage out of their desire to get XP by waiting in Greatgaunt for stuff to happen then they’ll stop traveling the world, and seeing all of the hard work the build staff has done.
I would not only love to be a 40th level character (only 20 now after years of play), but I would love to be one (if not the first) who has completed every NPC quest.
Some of the greatest RPGs ever made have a progressive quest system to take characters from the beginning to an ending point where the characters are free to roam on their own. Perhaps that should be looked at more than nerfing XP in an area that gets little to no foot traffic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 13:42:43 GMT -5
I've been a quiet advocate for years for seeing leveling progression re-balanced, though primarily for the pre-epics. Having seen a bunch of the changes now since the update I have to say I like most of it except for the XP nerf to dragon kills. I liked it when dragons were fat sources of XP for being such monstrous feats! Gimme the riches and experience for slaying a dragon! The dungeons I have been to seem to be balanced so that boss plus quest XP is capped around a certain number I won't disclose, and it's a pretty sizeable number still when the rest of the experience ticks you earn at the very high epics is 1. It's really only a few outlying and very old dungeons that were corrected and brought into balance with the rest of the server, IMO. I am very understanding to those who can't find parties and how much this may impact them. Before the move to EE the timezone I adventure in frequently saw as little as zero players online during late afternoons. Even after this first month of FRC:EE where the server has been seeing peaks of 50 or more players most days the timezone I adventure in still hits as low as 8, which is quite tiny for such a large level spread on the server. I think this is a good first step. I think the second is to reduce the maximum XP from non-boss mob kills. Currently it's possible to go to some dungeons in the server many perceive to be for high-teens or early epics as a low level, and if you know what you're doing you can pull out thousands of XP from these dungeons. The most I've ever seen myself was a bit over 7,000 xp from a single adventure at lvl 8. All of this ludicrous XP has always been from manageable mobs yielding 50 xp a kill. For a while I recall seeing brand new characters on the server then seeing them doing the Hullack dungeons not long after. That may be because there's a few dungeons in the Hullack you can start going to as early as lvl 12-15, earlier if you luck out with competent players and party composition, though you are right too. There are some groups of players who go from 1 to 20 in under a month.
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Post by xeneize on Feb 11, 2019 13:50:00 GMT -5
I have not experienced any of the quest xp updates yet.
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Post by Razgriz on Feb 11, 2019 14:22:16 GMT -5
That’s a tough one. Right now NW is booming because of EE, so the high levels aren’t so bad, but that giant gulf in levels has always seemed a game breaker to me when it “wasn’t” booming because older servers usually had mostly high level PCs, and new players would find themselves alone most of the time due to the immense power-gap between levels. Honestly it’s why I stopped playing in the first place. I could never find groups reliably and spent too much time sitting around alone because either no one was within 10 levels of Abby, or they’d take too much of an xp hit to bring her. Personally I love much much lower level caps (10ish) with only feats going up after a certain level, but I get most people would implode at the thought. But wow the ease of finding groups, the reasonable level of power between the strongest and weakest PCs, the easy with which DMs can tailor events for everyone, the vast larger array of dungeons everyone can visit... anyway... With NW booming and a huge influx of players,the gap probably isn’t terrible and the speed people advance isn’t as big a deal. Ugh no, no and no! hah, sorry. Part of FRC's appeal when compared to the other large NWNW-EE RP servers, is that it remains level 40, and that it takes time reaching it. It is almost impossible to do, unless one can dedicate days, weeks and months to it. However, there lies the appeal! The characters can keep growing and growing, and it is unlikely that they will ever reach the point where mechanical development ends. Additionally, level 40 also means that many concepts are playable, even if they develop very late. For me, it is not about the power, but about the freedom that a level 40 environment provides at the time of thinkering what and who I want to play. Reduce the level cap even a little, and then the number of concepts, diversity of builds and fun decreases. Right, FRC is not about levels and power, but FRC is about allowing players do as they wish as long as the rules are not broken. A level 40 environment fosters creativity, and I dare say significanttly more than level 10, 20, and 30 ones do. Anyway, I think making the climb to 30 and 40 slower will be good though, so I like the change.
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sarkill
Proven Member
Quack
Posts: 104
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Post by sarkill on Feb 11, 2019 14:30:32 GMT -5
So what if there's a level 40 character on the server? When you hit level 40, what is there left to do but RP? Is that not the goal of the server in the first place, to promote RP? These changes always seem counter-intuitive to me. If you lower the amount of xp gained from dungeons, people will be forced to run more dungeons because of it, not less.
Now, I admit, as someone who would generally be considered a power-gamer, I am annoyed to see this changed because I like to have powerful, high-level characters, i.e. I dont like xp nerfs. I'm definitely biased here. However, when 1/2, if not more, of the server is already 20+, it seems a little too late to be doing such intense damage control.
I've been playing on and off on FRC since the vault wipe, and yet I only have a lvl 24, and a lvl 18 character, after what most people would consider power-gaming: I only ever run the "good xp dungeons". Certainly it is possible to extreme power level on the server, as we do have our first lvl 40, and we saw something similar to this with an older player, Wyeth, who hit 35 or something similar in not more than 6 or so months before quitting. However, level 40 isn't reached this fast by just running the "good xp dungeons" every week. It's reached by running just about every available dungeons each week, as I noticed whenever I went to play with my old friend Wyeth. The conversation wasn't "were should we go?", it was "whats left that Wyeth hasn't done yet?".
Is it not fun to level up? Is it not fun to see your character grow more powerful? Where does this level-limiting sentiment come from? How does limiting levels promote RP? Why make it so more dungeons have to be run each week to reach the same quantity of xp? What's the problem with having a level 30 character? The power difference between 24 and 30 is surprisingly small, another 3 attack bonus, 2 feats, so what? What's the point of preventing people from reach high levels? Does it upset the power-balance in any way? Who cares if another level 30 pops up. If anything it gives the already existing epic characters someone to have some real conflict with, instead of lvl 30 assassin vs lvl 9 paladin, and vice versa. Why does it matter if we have a wide range of character levels?
There are people who like to play one character for a long time and get to high levels, and there are players like Tal, who loves to try out new and interesting rp ideas, and thus make many new, low level characters. And there is no shortage of both types of players brought in by the Great EE Renaissance. I simply don't see the reason to prevent players from being high levels, as it really has no disruptive effects on the RP of the server: after all, there are so many epic level clerics that Cormyr could be the center of just about every faith in Faerun, and so many epic wizards and sorcerers that every surrounding country should be afraid that Cormyr could conquer the world at any moment. What's one more?
Either way, I would just like to say that I appreciate the fact that changes are coming at a more reasonable pace to the server. I greatly appreciate the hard work that has been put in so far to prevent the server from stagnating like it had began to do before the Great EE Renaissance, and I hope that the controversy behind this decision won't push us back into an age were the server is scared to change. I love to see the server keeping fresh, and especially appreciate the small ways the server has developed as a result of DM-Player interaction, like with the addition of the GG Volunteer lookout tower north of Greatgaunt, and the removal of the bandits that used spawn there. I absolutely love how it makes our Cormyr feel like a real, breathing world. Thanks for all your hard work, I look forward to seeing the discussion on this topic.
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Post by Dobian on Feb 11, 2019 14:33:53 GMT -5
I think the solution isn't to adjust xp rewards, but to come up with higher level dungeons that an epic can solo. An epic isn't going to go into a dungeon all by themselves if they know it's certain death.
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abby
Old School
Posts: 323
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Post by abby on Feb 11, 2019 14:36:01 GMT -5
I played on an e8 server and saw no less creativity or fun. But it was nice when even a few low level PC’s or the town guards could bring down a seasoned and experienced veteran. You didn’t need angry Gods to put the fear into people as even a high number of weak creatures was a threat. I expect a level 40 could be dropped into a stadium filled with goblins and kill them all with ease. The power levels are just crazy.
That said: I’m not here to change anything, level 40 is fine and I know a lot of people like that kind of thing. NWN has survived a long time so it must work!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2019 15:11:02 GMT -5
Another thing to possibly consider is the idea of encouraging people to perma-retire their high level characters. I've seen this used elsewhere as a way to keep the supply of low level characters fresh. The encouragement came in the form of giving such players a little perk on their next character, for instance getting access to a sub-race or class that would be off limits otherwise. I've even seen the "chance" (die roll) of such a perk used as incentive. The final decision about retirement would have to be made before the die roll.
I've seen posts from DMs stating that balance can be difficult to maintain when characters get above level 25. So maybe that could be where the encouragement begins. Retirement of a character over level 30 could generate even a slightly better perk, or higher chance of perk, etc.
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Eldok
Proven Member
Atonement is the way
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Post by Eldok on Feb 11, 2019 15:29:12 GMT -5
It took me 5 years to get Aein at where he currently is now, which I think is alright. I would have preffered things to remain as they were, but perhaps the change is for the best.
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Post by Vaertai on Feb 11, 2019 15:54:42 GMT -5
I'm just going to leave a nice little LOL here.
It took me about 10 years off and on to get where I am now. This thought that everyone is on the grind is ludicrous as it's a small percentage of players at best constantly out getting xp where they can. So yea I kinda see this as a punishment to the many for the actons of the few but who am I to say whats right and wrong.
Also yea, anything that would drag high level people out of the lowly farm village would be great.
Kthxbai :^]
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Eldok
Proven Member
Atonement is the way
Posts: 216
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Post by Eldok on Feb 11, 2019 15:56:08 GMT -5
I'm just going to leave a nice little LOL here. It took me about 10 years off and on to get where I am now. This thought that everyone is on the grind is ludicrous as it's a small percentage of players at best constantly out getting xp where they can. So yea I kinda see this as a punishment to the many for the actons of the few but who am I to say whats right and wrong. Also yea, anything that would drag high level people out of the lowly farm village would be great. Kthxbai :^] Very well said
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Andros
Old School
I only know that I know nothing
Posts: 437
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Post by Andros on Feb 11, 2019 16:33:15 GMT -5
I applaud this change, I still remember a time when you could tell someone there was a soft level cap at 24 without them laughing in your face.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Feb 11, 2019 16:44:56 GMT -5
I for one disagree with this move and feel the community is being punished as a whole over others abuses.
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Andros
Old School
I only know that I know nothing
Posts: 437
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Post by Andros on Feb 11, 2019 17:28:43 GMT -5
Low levels are mostly unaffected by the update, as it seems to support progression up to pre-epics. The biggest concern is the stunted progression after that point, what with XP rewards cut beyond half in certain scenarios. Lets take the Hullack Ghost tower as an example. Not a simple quest to do, and also by no means a guaranteed win due to the RNG levers... The reward for all the effort and resources used to complete it used to be 800xp, however now it appears to be 150xp. That's the same amount as what is given after bonking a bunch of Ogres west of Suzail. The update is going to encourage yet more epics to scour the lower level dungeons in the hopes of getting whatever XP they can muster, which is frowned upon by the community. Yet an epic cannot find it being much worth trying to face off against a tower of ghosts, traps, and mages when the reward can be found in a much easier and simpler place. Not to mention that many epics cannot solo dungeons of their level alone, so when without a group, what else can they do besides twiddle their thumbs in Greatgaunt? By "an epic" you mean you, some of us play for fun. In my case I enjoy the challenge of that dungeon and I would do it even if it gave no xp, my thinking is "That's a fun way to spend two hours of my free time"
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Feb 11, 2019 17:31:29 GMT -5
There is also a fun way to spend 2 hours and show gains. And if lvls didn't matter why not auto lvl everyone to 40.
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abby
Old School
Posts: 323
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Post by abby on Feb 11, 2019 17:41:43 GMT -5
There is also a fun way to spend 2 hours and show gains. And if lvls didn't matter why not auto lvl everyone to 40. I prefer low levels. Combat is more random and fast.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Feb 11, 2019 17:53:49 GMT -5
The point I'm trying to get across is. Why are we as a community being punished because few abused the old system. I honestly see this as a punishment to us all and I fail to see how this will improve anything.
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Post by Asgardian Grey Hawk on Feb 11, 2019 17:54:34 GMT -5
What are the next steps taking out quests?
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Post by bloodalchemist on Feb 11, 2019 18:09:57 GMT -5
I for one disagree with this move and feel the community is being punished as a whole over others abuses. Reminds me of the lock installed after the deepspawn because of a player ninja looting it, punishing all the player base >.>
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Post by sacoroth on Feb 11, 2019 18:45:08 GMT -5
Can you add an option simply related to not liking the alignment changes incurred?
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Post by MTGPackFoils on Feb 11, 2019 19:35:58 GMT -5
Here’s another thought to help keep XP from getting out of hand without nerfing rewards for everyone.
Let’s say you complete a scripted quest. One that is outside of Greatgaunt. You get a token that for 7 days prevents you from getting a quest reward for a quest you may have completed with another group.
Yes I know we have the one week visit rule, but this may be an option and allow XP to be rewarded appropriately for the quest.
Also if we’re going to do this nerfing of XP can we at least get doors and chests to be bashable?
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abby
Old School
Posts: 323
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Post by abby on Feb 11, 2019 20:08:37 GMT -5
I don’t think it’s a punishment. Probably just an attempt to tailor the pacing closer to what the staff would prefer to see no big. You can make up for it with dm xp anyway.
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