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Post by Lady Frost on Apr 18, 2018 22:20:19 GMT -5
Hey! I'm doing a casual poll on what your top few favorite or unfavorite dungeons are. No limit, feel free to name off a couple or a bunch. If you'd mention why you like or don't like it that'd help too. Please don't worry about hurting feelings. We can take it, and it lets us know what we can do better.
A few things I'm curious about:
Do you tend to prefer newer or older dungeons?
Do you prefer detailed (as in traps, hidden doors, puzzles, skill rolls), do you prefer more mindless where you can get in and just battle monsters and chat without all the secondary side stuff, or is there some combination of the two?
Do you prefer open world (like the Steelfields) or do you like classic dungeons/caves/ruins/etc)
Do you like freedom to choose your own path (Lower Mistwood) or do you like a set direction?
Do you prefer to feel like a dungeon was fully completed, or do you like to have a reason to return?
Feel free to answer as much or as little. Thanks!
LF
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 22:30:57 GMT -5
FAVORITE: Arabel Orcs- actually feel like your assaulting a well defended fortress. Great mobs. Good quest.
Least Favorite: Bramble Mino Maze- lots of running around getting lost. At first it's fun but the dungeon is so huge with it strung out so much you actually start oocly begging for the end. Also a side note the traps the move you around do not work anymore. Which makes it 1% more palatable. End boss danger is significantly higher than rest of the maze. Now just went through there and had something fun happen and don't want this to reflect on that. Dm flavor is great! But that dungeon I had forgotten how painful it is. Best have multihours to wander. And if u log in middle your trapped until server resets unless u wanna spend multi hours getting out. Place respawns everything each map u go to. Which while good for xp gets a bit much when u have to back track for the third time and kill the same things over and over. All being said they did a great job making a maze. Enough one time a year is enough for me personally
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 0:31:36 GMT -5
Favorites -Not- built or changed by me in any way:
- Fire Giants: Epic, and looks great. Good risk vs reward ratio.
- The Green Dragon: Remote, but very well designed and I love the atmosphere of the areas before the dragon.
- Certain Gem Mine: It is like being in Jules Verne's famous nobel.
- The "Dragon Nest": Dragons everywhere and the cave looks very interesting.
- Tresaure Island: Very immersive, and different. It is always great to find buried gold here.
- White Dragon: Simple and easy, but a fun showdown.
- Shadow Spire: Very challenging, fun and keeps you alert all the time.
- drow Tower: Varied encounters and nice visuals. This represents what a dungeon should be like, imo.
- Icingdwell: Even if it only has like 3 placeables and is probably outdated, I still like it.
- Espar Mines: Every player with a character that smiths likes these mines.
- Mushroom Cave: The last of Us and it looks so different.
Favorite among those that I tweaked and/or built:
It starts with "S"
The Ones I do not like:
Orogs: Just Overpowered orcs on steroids and that is about it. They should be in the Underdark, actually.
The Fire Beetle Hive: Not sure why, but I always avoid it.
The Baramblewood Maze: Mostly because it takes too much time, imo.
GG Crypts: Probably because I have cleared them way too many times by now.
Ogre Bandits: The loot is still awful here.
Ogre Cave: I know it is just low level quest, but I usually just attempt it once with every character.
The Crypts Long Forgotten? (VR): Bad loot, the traps reset, everything is locked and it is rather empty.
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Post by Spirit of a Phoenix on Apr 19, 2018 1:39:56 GMT -5
Going to try and be relatively vague out of respect for whatever new players we may have on the servers, but my favorite dungeon is probably Zorastyl's Keep. The dungeon has a whole lot of flavor and an interesting backstory. I'm probably a little biased because I have a love of horror themes, personally. Out of all sourcebooks, the Monster Manual is probably my favorite, next to Faith's and pantheons. I know we're playing on Cormyr, but I'm pretty bored with orcs and generic undead. It was cool seeing a slightly more unusual array of monsters in this dungeon. I especially enjoyed that the dungeon had a prequel dungeon attached to it. Off the top of my head, I feel like this is the servers most detailed dungeon, and I'm always disappointed when a character out levels it and I'm unable to return. I also like the rest-ability option of this dungeon, because I can leisurely make my way through it while RPing the environment with those I'm with.
The Dhedluk Ladies of the Forest is probably a close second. For almost similar reasons. I've hoped for a sequel to the events of that dungeon since it was hinted in the dungeon's story. This dungeon has provided some pleasant discussion of the mysterious women and their relationship with the nearby villagers, and perhaps the controversy behind it. It's nice having a dungeon that adds to RP rather than provides mindless crawling in my opinion.
I miss the Island on the Redmist that was removed years ago. Mostly for the slightly varied roster of monsters. If the area was ever reinserted with a slightly more horror-themed twist. Maybe the ruins reworked to be a rescue quest for a shipwrecked crew, I'd be ecstatic. Maybe with the harpies as a more prominent focus on the Island's backstory, I'd be won over, but I loved this dungeon the way it was back in the day too. Losing this dungeon was a huge loss for Mid-Level groups. I enjoyed walking through this area when I started out. Coming upon skeletal pirates crews, or having a colossal crab that crawled out of the sea, to the abrupt harpy encounters. It was a great map.
For least favorite dungeons, nothing really *pops* to mind, but generally, I have a dislike of dungeons like most of the orc dungeons. There just isn't a lot of flavor to many of them, especially the dungeons near Suzail. I enjoyed the low-level gnoll cave because of the characteristic descriptions and unsavory set up because it breathed a bit of life to the setting. I kind of wish that dungeon was a bit more graphic, the world is an ugly place. But I also understand that some people may not enjoy an overly graphic set up, but having something extreme for characters to react to and make an impression on them is nice character development. Sometimes the brutality is a bit too subtle, having it stare charaters in the face and force a reaction will go along way towards encouraging a proper reaction. Some of the orcs-based dungeons and various crypts could use a gnoll cave style touch up to make them feel a little less generic.
More than just the dungeon itself, I feel that the monsters make the dungeon. More than just greater dungeon detail, I'd like to see more monster encouncters come to life with pop up dialogue (if that's possible), or just pop up text to give an idea of the senses while approuching the monster, hearing them before you see them, maybe prompt dialogue that requires a successful roll to have an idea of what might come up.
Allips are not uncommon on the server. There's some interesting information in the monster manual about them. "An Allip is unable to cause physical harm , although it doesn't know that. It keeps flailing away at enemies, yet it inflicts no wounds". Perhaps describe the allip muttering and whining unintelligibly regarding what lead them to commit suicide, since that seems to be a trait of theirs. Pretty much, descriptions that create a stronger presence for the monster rather than just a something you see and need to slash down. Maybe have flavor text near a gelatinous cube encounter and describe what is going on in it's nearly transparent bodies.
I'd reather see few monsters over mobs of monsters, if it provides an oppertunity to better experience the creature and it's presence within the environment it's found, even if the monster is empowered and strengthened in order to give it durability to match the challenge of what a mob would have to offer.
Last thought is in regards to xp distribution. I'm not suggesting that any xp be increased or decreased, but some dungeons get hammered to the ground because their reward is better than others despite the value of the challenge. It might be nice to see a bit more consistancy regarding dungeon rewards, even for those dungeons that are not attached to a quest, but still provide a challenge.
These are just some thoughts, i'm not exactly sure how easily/possible it is to excute some of these ideas would be. I just posted whatever came to mind.
Hope that helps and that's the kind of feedback you hoping looking for.
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Post by gathera on Apr 19, 2018 4:00:49 GMT -5
With out a doubt the champion of the hated places for me is the Minotaur Maze. It is just annoying. You wander endlessly trying to find the end. I actually did complete it once just to have done it. Rather like having ones teeth pulled. The wild magic which was broke when I explored it has thankfully been fixed. Yes I submitted the number of attempts to failure ratio which was substantially larger than what was the design. The disappearing maps are fine for awhile but the place is simple immense. It quickly looses any charm. There are hmm four creature types through out. If there was a theme to the place I never got the memo. Shudder may I never step foot in that place again.
Now that the bad is out of the way and there simply isn't anything in the maze's league, now to what places I enjoyed.
The starter crypt in GG. I have done this countless times with nearly every starter class. To defeat the end creature is always a hallmark of success. Haven't always won but that is part of the charm. It is huge and to be completely fair since I have completed it for a zillion times I simply don't always go everywhere within. Yes I am bad. Just do the parts I enjoy. The deeper you go the better it gets. It has a large variety of opponents which I enjoy. What would be nice for actually both the starter dungeons is to extend the theme elements that are found there to other places. Atmosphere is important. Part of the gnolls charm and the place where you fight alien *chuckling* Oh that wretch fiend. One day I do plan to explore other aspects of the choices available to the players present in that place.
Do you tend to prefer newer or older dungeons?
Both but for me places that can be finished quickly and can be reached quickly. I have time constraints but that Is just me
Do you prefer detailed (as in traps, hidden doors, puzzles, skill rolls), do you prefer more mindless where you can get in and just battle monsters and chat without all the secondary side stuff, or is there some combination of the two?
It would be nice if the traps puzzles and secret places could change places time to time. Else once done they are just meh.
Do you prefer open world (like the Steelfields) or do you like classic dungeons/caves/ruins/etc)
I quite enjoy wandering in the Steelfields.
Do you like freedom to choose your own path (Lower Mistwood) or do you like a set direction?
The Mistwoods tends to be pick a direction and keep on going place for me lol. I know I wont have time to complete it so I go until I have to log, then wait for the reset lol.
Do you prefer to feel like a dungeon was fully completed, or do you like to have a reason to return?
I have given this a lot of thought lately. It would be nice to change the dialog and or quest results to reflect something that can be ongoing. Definitely hard to come up with the plot but after a time it really does get hard to justify oh the Wizard is stuck on his demi-plane again... What I would prefer is that it is set as an endless battle. The Wizards of the realm are involved in a continuing battle against the forces of evil. An agent was dispatched but we believe that he has either perished or worse been captured. With him is the means to seal the breach to that demi-plane. You might adventure's are charged to see if he is alive or dead and more importantly complete his mission. Never refer to the wizard by name. You could still recover the item needed and defeat the opponents but by making it open ended it is something easier to believe in doing again. The crown thanks you for your aid might adventurers in our ongoing war against the beyond. That sort of thing. It is however significantly harder to set ongoing dungeons plot wise. Just a thought
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Post by nemusator on Apr 19, 2018 8:28:23 GMT -5
Favorites: -Jasminxtor's tower. I like how quest itself opens, and how you have to do stuff to open the portal, and assemble... (don't want to spoil). Interesting NPC's dialogue and fun battles. - Boobrie recipe and Barley quest. Both quite short, but I love dialogue quests and particularly how these two are written. - Dungeons of Morgoth... Eggs... Smash eggs... Nice... On the serious note, I like how tricky the main enemy is, overall assembly and nice touch on NPC's in dungeon. I also like when you have a choice in dungeon to do or not to do something... And eggs... - Rivior's tower. Always a challenge, everything has a description, hope I will manage to complete it once... Everything has been done with so much love and devotion that I really can't say... Meh... I dislike that or that... But> Things that could be more interesting in my opinion: - Last map in Hullack before Oghderlin. Fight one spider Queen and her minions... Fight another one. And another one. And another one. And another one. And... Another one! Maybe simply insert one different group in the middle. - Personally I don't enjoy long empty walks in dungeons. F.e. after first bunch of pirates in pirate's cave, there is a long empty walk before you reach next enemy. There are dungeons alike, and would be cool if there was something on the way. There may be much better examples of this however. Not saying it has to be pimped with content, but some flora or interesting placeable or alike could make the adventure more enjoyable  - Also there are places like Black dragon's cave, which I like doing only cause of the dragon itself to be honest. Constantly fighting the same enemies can be tiring sometimes. - In some dungeons you have to walk back to the starting point, which in open areas isn't much of an issue, you can simply ride out, in closed ones I would prefer an exit door, teleport or anything. -Dungeons I love but not doing them anymore: -Frost giants. One of prettiest places with always challenging enemies. Unfortunately from Shallybrook and back, 150xp overall, as well as loot which doesn't compensate me for supplies used to complete. I remember there was a white dragon once there, I liked that touch. I avoid doing the dungeon, but from time to time it just draws me, so I do it for fun only. There are few more, but I don't do them simply because of lack in unlock/search skill, though am planning to try nevertheless. To sum up, I like that such variety exists. Every dungeon has something to offer, every area is interesting in it's own way... It is good that player can decide:"Right, now I'm going to explore Mistwoood or Steelfields... Or am going to fight Zhentarim... Or solve puzzles here and there..." Most fabulous landscapes and design I seen in NWN so far. |
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Post by FlyingMidget on Apr 19, 2018 8:51:01 GMT -5
The Maze is actually one of my favourite dungeons though I try to avoid going there often when playing a character in it's level range so it keeps it's unique flavour and freshness to me, that's how much I actually like it. It has a couple of hidden spots most people probably still haven't found and it's not that difficult a place to navigate after the first visit in my opinion.
I like dungeons with less enemies and more time for walking between encounters, I love overland maps like this in particular, not everything has to or should be chocoblock full of stuff. I love when there are puzzles, actual puzzles (rather then spam traps all over the place) though to be solved and random traps set.
I dislike any dungeon that has epic traps that are set to resetting and are spammed all over the floors, I loath dungeons where the only way to the loot is to set off an epic trap because they're set to resetting and undisablable.
I also dislike dungeons that make no sense, example being a dungeon filled with thousands of Orcs each strong enough to kill an army on their own due to being way more dangerous in one on one combat the a Very Old Dragon.
FM.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 9:09:32 GMT -5
I do not like puzzles that much myself either. The truly good ones, require tons of scripting and those resources are better spent elsewhere. The good puzzles work best in single player modules, I would say.
Instead, I like when the dungeon itself is the puzzle. To clear little by little every corner of it, to fight varied creatures and to discover mysterious content casually.
I like those dungeons that are set up in a way where you need to do minor tasks or adventures first, which will then allow you to reach the end and the boss if you want.
I especially like those dungeons that seem alive, and that possess what coud be described as their own ecosystems.
I tend to dislike the empty ones that are just rooms filled with repetitive encounters of the same monsters.
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Post by Southpaw on Apr 19, 2018 9:09:35 GMT -5
I like areas that are unique, memorable, and sensible in how it’s designed. If it’s a constructed area, I like a sensible layout. It can be a square, circle, tower with levels, or any format that makes sense. If it’s natural, like an outdoor area or natural cave, I strongly dislike a linear feel with a beginning and end, and vastly prefer a natural sprawl. That to me is “sensible” to what the area is. Examples are the GG kobolds, the area under the GG well, Banite complex in the Stonelands, and frost giant castle. I don’t like the evil tree area in the King’s Forest because it feels like narrow dungeon corridors with only one path in an outdoor area. (Even the evil trees trip over each other in the cramped space sometimes.)
I strongly dislike most “linear” dungeons, because they feel to me like an artificially created conveyor belt for gold and xp. Monsters live in dwelling spaces for their own purposes, not for conveying adventuring rewards to their enemies. “Conveyor belts” would be like the Bramblewood gnolls, Grush’nak troll quest, and the like.
I like varied encounters, not a narrowly varying number of monsters with identical stats. (The crypt north of VR is an exception. For some reason, I love the slog through hordes of identical monsters in there.) I especially hate having so many versions of orcs everywhere, from the lowest level dungeons outside GG to the highest in the Hullack. It makes them feel generic to the point of physical pain in the head to fight one more bloody orc. I think they should be there, but I’d like to see them pick a level range and stick to it. I don’t even care what level range they would challenge. I’d just like to see them pick just one. Same for gnolls and goblins.
As a rule, detail that is specific to the area is always good. What form it takes doesn’t matter. But the detail of the dungeon is kinda like the area setting the RP bar by role playing to you from the moment you arrive.
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Post by Abii on Apr 19, 2018 9:27:35 GMT -5
The best one ever for me was Goblin stronghold!!!, also I like very much "Thief" dungeon, Ruins of Marghog, or Fire salamanders(woah!), Necropolis is also a great one with all the traps and undeads inside, especially deep inside. I also prefer to have less enemies which are way stronger, than slaying hordes without any risk(I think thats every epic lv problem), Beside that for me everything is balanced.
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Post by Animayhem on Apr 19, 2018 10:00:30 GMT -5
I would have to say the minotaur maze as well considering how long it takes to complete. Yes amaze means you may find dead ends but from what I experienced the effort and pay out not really worth it though some interesting rp is to be had.
In general then:
I dislike the spam mobs of monsters a few less make it more challenging.
Yes I realize there are "level" specific dungeons but encounters on the way to different areas. I do not know if the difficulty is scaled to levels , but the xp is not. One would think if you are a high level or even an epic you should be able to cut through easier on your way. That is not usually the case, you still chop at them as if you were a lower level and what do you get, only 1 xp. Waste a lot of resources at time and finally get to the destination for "your level"
I dislike the reset of traps. If you have a trap specialist and they disarm the trap and unlock the container, the trap should not respawn immediately. Once it is disarmed it is disarmed period.
I dislike that unless you have a rogue or someone with high lock picking skills, or high trap disarming skills or a pixie for a familiar, you are unable to get all the loot. I think chests and doors should be bashable. In places that allow this, the loot varies or you get nothing just the broken item. It really bites sometime to have to wait to do a certain area that needs such skills especially with the once every seven day rule.
The once every seven day rule, while I can understand the purpose can also be an rp breaker. I am the type who like to rp and dungeon but also like others need coin. It can be disheartening sometime to have done a place recently and then a few days later, people who you have a rp history with wish to go and you cannot. Preplanning? Yes it can be done but does not always work as well as spontaneity.
I think some more open spaces to accommodate those of us who play rangers and druids. The tun and Hullack in essence provide some "wilderness" battles. |
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Post by Dakarizon (Shroud) on Apr 19, 2018 10:36:22 GMT -5
Least favorite:
-Bramble Maze
-Hook Horror Cave
-Orog Cave
-Suzail Ogres
Favorite:
-Griffin Cellar
-Zorastyl Mansion
-Gnome Blighter Cave
-GG Crypt
-GG Ruins
-Skulk Cave
The reasoning behind my selections is partially due to not playing high level characters, thus not visiting high level dungeons. But all of those on my favorite list seem to capture a certain “flavor”. I enjoy travelling to places that seem to be part of a plot or story, even though the characters might not already be aware of it. Placables, ambience, and narration is always a plus for me.
I would love to see more connections between dungeons: You need a magical tablet obtained in a lower level area to enter a higher level dungeon later... something like that. It would be neat if more places could feel like a single-player story that would reflect your characters progress.
In terms of balance, I think the current dungeons are mostly setup to encourage grinding. I say this because of the content spread out to accomidate low level and high level characters. It is impossible to progress through levels by visiting every dungeon once... so things become repetitive: people develop a weekly schedule and visit the same dungeons again and again once/week.
Obviously this isnt true for every player, since there are quite a variation of play styles, but my personal preference would be to either boost experience so you dont need to constantly revisit a dungeon... OR massively reduce experience and difficulty of dungeons and put a level cap on 20 or something. That way you have a much larger selection of places to travel at any particular level. This would probably be impossible to do, so it’s not really a serious suggestion for consideration.
Concluding this post would just be a comment that my least favorite part about some of the dungeons is the power discrepancy of the regular spawns vs the bosses.
A recent experience I had with this would be the bugbear area near the Grush quest. I recently completed this area with another player. We were able to dispatch every mob with a bit of challenge and a reasonable amount of resources used. It felt like a well balance encounter throughout... then we got to the boss which appeared to be designed for a much higher level or much larger party.
The issue is if we had been higher level, or in a larger group, the regular encounters would have been too simple. So we did what we had to in order to survive and placed a massive amount of traps down, and let the stupid monster AI kill itself. Was it a fun way to do it? No. But even with 2 melee classes, we would have simply been outmatched by a huge margin.
Im not sure if theres a way for bosses to scale, but maybe that’s something to look into?
Sorry for the wall of txt!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 13:30:13 GMT -5
GG area goblin fort, because it provides an early chance for players to be challenged by environmental barriers (towers,cliffs) and elemental damage, thus encouraging the party to be diverse in terms of capability.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 13:39:26 GMT -5
Well, I used to play frc ages ago so my favourite would be an old one no longer with us: we'd take the little rowboat from Isinhold out to the island where a mad gnome's ruined lair filled adventurers' days and nights with stuttering doddering constructs, both alert and failing, and pouches of coloured gems for a certain puzzle. Ah, times were good.
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Post by grivel on Apr 19, 2018 14:57:09 GMT -5
I dislike that unless you have a rogue or someone with high lock picking skills, or high trap disarming skills or a pixie for a familiar, you are unable to get all the loot. I think chests and doors should be bashable. In places that allow this, the loot varies or you get nothing just the broken item. It really bites sometime to have to wait to do a certain area that needs such skills especially with the once every seven day rule.
I disagree with this and think just the opposite. Many of the locks and traps need to have a higher DC so that anyone with a few skill levels of disarm or open lock still would need a professional in the party to collect all the loot. If you don't have someone with high enough skill, you sacrifice some loot.
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Post by lucid on Apr 19, 2018 15:20:05 GMT -5
Hate with burning passion:
Lake of Death...please stop making trick/trap lakes where I have to get naked or explode in gore for the RP Crime of dipping a toe while armored. I refuse to cross these anymore, treasure be damned.
"CORELLONLARETHIAN"...a lovely idea, I really like the concept, and looks like it should work....but in practice is a nightmare of trying to make skill-based baby-steps with Aurora, and that way lies madness. Toss in a dose of the engine randomly killing you on occasion even when you do it perfectly right, and you've got Ragequit in a Can. Would not mind this one remaining if it could be retooled somehow.
Pretty short list! Overall I am very fond of the dungeons available, there's a massive variety that bursts the seams of the engine's limitations, and I can only say "kudos" to that. I'm left scratching my head over why people be hatin' on some of this stuff, I think it's all pretty great.
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Post by iangallowglas on Apr 19, 2018 16:12:20 GMT -5
I hate Epic Orcs and Epic Goblins. Get rid of them, seriously. They are cannon fodder and should only be in low level dungeons.
I would prefer that we don't remake old dungeons (except epic orc and goblin dungeons), especially if we don't change them thematically. It seems like a waste of time. I'd rather see knew dungeons.
I'd really like to see the Anauroch desert come into the module. Including maybe a place where you could hang out with blue or brass dragons, depending upon your preference.
Favorite Dungeon....Probably the Mind Flayer dungeon. It's not like anyplace else on the server. The beholder dungeon is also kind of cool, but I'm not sure if the theme there really makes any sense.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Apr 19, 2018 20:17:10 GMT -5
I dislike the Suzail mage tower quest the most, by far. Mostly because it makes little sense to leave it, and it completely belittles the War Wizards as a whole, when various adventurers say 'let's go save that stupid war wizard -again- this week.' They're the main policing force of Cormyr behind the PDKs (who also get abuse) when they should be rightly feared as having their noses into a bit of everything. They, under Vangerdahast and now Caladnei, were the controlling force behind the majority of the intrigues within Cormyr, keeping foes tied up and less able to cause strife for the Obarskyrs. Having one in peril so frequently seems to undermine that, particularly with it being such a 'popular' locale. Maybe if it was an aspiring battlemage it'd be different. Mechanically, any dungeon that has resetting traps that cannot be removed is ridiculously annoying to deal with when playing a rogue with maximized trap stats. Other ones are just any that might have no apparent history or detail to them- the more featureless cave or temple areas. I like some dungeons but think they need some updating or changes. The rakshasa are now properly frightening, but their area is still pretty bland. The Zhent keep is likewise an interesting place to look at, but the interior is so featureless as to make it entirely boring. Do you tend to prefer newer or older dungeons? In general, newer, though some of the newer are annoying in their own ways, particularly with the traps noted above. Do you prefer detailed (as in traps, hidden doors, puzzles, skill rolls), do you prefer more mindless where you can get in and just battle monsters and chat without all the secondary side stuff, or is there some combination of the two? Combinations. Dependent on the type of monster and their home, having all the extras makes sense. Having non-combat skill checks is also nice, and allows those with social or less-used skills show a little knowledge. (Ride, Persuade/Bluff/Intimidate, PP) There's one area that has a Heal check to determine how an NPC died. It isn't essential knowledge, but it's a very neat little tidbit inside the dungeon that could spark a conversation. Do you prefer open world (like the Steelfields) or do you like classic dungeons/caves/ruins/etc) Both at different times. The vast haunted areas of the Hullack make it feel much larger than it is in terms of area numbers and helps to grant scale, while the closed-in confines of a crypt grant better atmosphere of claustrophobia or darkness. Do you like freedom to choose your own path (Lower Mistwood) or do you like a set direction? Same as above, it really depends on the atmosphere and intent of an area. Having alternatives, particularly ones that might be affected by characters and their skills, such as bypassing a nasty magical trap by a hidden door, is preferable and cool to see. Do you prefer to feel like a dungeon was fully completed, or do you like to have a reason to return? Usually the first, but having a riddle to solve or some prerequisite to find on an area would be interesting. The old Daggerdale module had a bit of a lore riddle in one dungeon, that opened into a terrifying encounter with an epic mummy-thing. Many a player spent a very long time trying to find the answer to that riddle, and more than one trip was taken to the area just to make guesses at the NPC guarding the door. |
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Post by Orchid on Apr 19, 2018 20:57:40 GMT -5
Favorites; Minotaur Maze: extremely well made, impossible to bumrush, mob density and complexity lends extremely well to organic RP and gives less combat oriented more intellectual characters a chance to shine by RPing out mapping the maze for example Fire Giants: Thematic af, super fun, good mob density and variety, EPIC boss and real boss Goblin Fort: Super super fun low level to barrel through and see how badarse you really are, really really fun on great cleave/aoe casters, just all around good mindless slogfest marathon Pre-Change Deepspawn orcs: Was really really fun fighting the hordes of orcs and then OMG WHY DOES THIS WINGED GUY HURT SO MUCH, always love when a boss is significantly harder than his mooks Dislike; Hook Horrors: These things are supposed to be terrifying, not soloable by certain builds 3+ with minimal buff potions  New Arabel Orcs: Gorgon Riders are dumb, nothing in there threatens well built characters except the 5% mechanical ooc chance of faliure forced by NWN on a 1 roll vs gorgon rider petrification breath, random exotic mounted mooks should not be more terrifying, annoying, and stressful than a boss Any Drow Place: The Drow here and the Underdark are a joke, I'd waited until I was high 20s to start going into tghe Underdark and was woefully disappointed, every server I've been on you step foot in the Upperdark and it's like oh jfc oww what just happened, here it's like as Jhago says IC, "Drow are silly. WE ARE SPIDERY DOOM WE WILL KILL...I'm sorry I can't hear you over my axe in your face." Please, please make them the oppressive terror inducing imbas they should be |
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Post by Lady Frost on Apr 19, 2018 21:56:17 GMT -5
Alright, so I ask, for those that like the neat RP pieces of dungeons, the skill rolls that increase the immersion, and the detailed placeables and item descriptions: Does it play a part in your enjoyment of it in the third, fourth, tenth, twentieth times through?
Something I've come to realize about myself, and I think it's true in regards to many people I travel with (and probably far more than that) is that places that tell stories, places that use skill checks, areas that are filled with placeables / hidden doors / other flavor, and generally the more in-depth places are really liked and enjoyed the first couple times - but that's it. Sure you may "say" you like the place, but really, you just cruise through all of it. Most of us (including me) don't stop to look at details after a few run throughs. We insta-click through puzzles and skill checks - we ignore descriptions of placeables and flavor text - we're blind to the detailed environments - we stand in front of hidden doors until they appear - and we walk around (or instantly break the ice around) where we know traps are. Many times we act like we've been here many times even if the area or quest doesn't make sense to be "repeatable" as said above with the War Wizard. Nobody should be acting like they save the War Wizard every week. It should be RP'd as a new thing each time. But we don't, we get lazy and she just cruise through it. I totally get it. I -build- dungeons here and my favorite is Icingdwell, a place with like 3 placeables in the whole thing and pretty much zero lore or story. The details and lore and immersion of the places I've built are awesome - the first few times. After that, I just want to cruise through and kill the monsters. The creature balance and the encounters become most of the enjoyment for me, not the surroundings, skill checks, lore, etc.
What I want to know is how many other people agree with me. Should we spend tons of time nitpicking every detail, packing in lore and skill checks, and hiding doors and traps in the effort to tell a grand story, or should we just aim for "good and fun" and try to get more done?
Search your soul and let me know.
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Post by Southpaw on Apr 19, 2018 22:12:28 GMT -5
For the areas that are truly richly detailed, if I'm in a group and not solo'ing, the details and flavor never get old. Even if I am on autopilot solo'ing through, it's always better than it would have been had the dungeon been flat.
As for the "nit picking every detail," I don't need to see every detail nit picked. The difference is having a unique, meaningful, discernible theme to the place which all or close to all the details fit into. To me, you don't need to spend hours poring over every last speck of everything from top to bottom, beginning to end. I just need the area to clearly feel like what it's supposed to be.
Personally, I also like balance and variety between combat focus and challenge in some dungeons vs. skills and RP in others. I am opposed to trying to get all things into every dungeon, but prefer the variety.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 22:21:11 GMT -5
Search your soul and let me know.Imho, this is all so great... and, also my opinion, even a little of this would go a LONG long way for my personal tastes. I know the time and abilities of everyone building/scripting/dming is always in high-demand and never-enough, but this is the sort of thing that I feel would be well worth the efforts involved. cheers to you for recognising this and advocating for the communities' opinions. I have built extensively for various servers in the past and would be more than willing to donate time/effort in any effect that could aid. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2018 22:24:00 GMT -5
I dislike that unless you have a rogue or someone with high lock picking skills, or high trap disarming skills or a pixie for a familiar, you are unable to get all the loot. I think chests and doors should be bashable. In places that allow this, the loot varies or you get nothing just the broken item. It really bites sometime to have to wait to do a certain area that needs such skills especially with the once every seven day rule.
I disagree with this and think just the opposite. Many of the locks and traps need to have a higher DC so that anyone with a few skill levels of disarm or open lock still would need a professional in the party to collect all the loot. If you don't have someone with high enough skill, you sacrifice some loot.
Both of these views are valid: why not have a mix of both? some dungeons allow accessibility to any levels of skill, while others of perhaps more worth are narrowed by a much higher skill demand. In an overall theme, I see that requiring any class(es) of specific dedication would only result in requiring a balanced party... whereby this is done through rp or otherwise, could only foster that sense through the players and characters together. All in all, a brilliant and good thing, imho. |
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Post by Orchid on Apr 19, 2018 22:50:02 GMT -5
Alright, so I ask, for those that like the neat RP pieces of dungeons, the skill rolls that increase the immersion, and the detailed placeables and item descriptions: Does it play a part in your enjoyment of it in the third, fourth, tenth, twentieth times through?
Something I've come to realize about myself, and I think it's true in regards to many people I travel with (and probably far more than that) is that places that tell stories, places that use skill checks, areas that are filled with placeables / hidden doors / other flavor, and generally the more in-depth places are really liked and enjoyed the first couple times - but that's it. Sure you may "say" you like the place, but really, you just cruise through all of it. Most of us (including me) don't stop to look at details after a few run throughs. We insta-click through puzzles and skill checks - we ignore descriptions of placeables and flavor text - we're blind to the detailed environments - we stand in front of hidden doors until they appear - and we walk around (or instantly break the ice around) where we know traps are. Many times we act like we've been here many times even if the area or quest doesn't make sense to be "repeatable" as said above with the War Wizard. Nobody should be acting like they save the War Wizard every week. It should be RP'd as a new thing each time. But we don't, we get lazy and she just cruise through it. I totally get it. I -build- dungeons here and my favorite is Icingdwell, a place with like 3 placeables in the whole thing and pretty much zero lore or story. The details and lore and immersion of the places I've built are awesome - the first few times. After that, I just want to cruise through and kill the monsters. The creature balance and the encounters become most of the enjoyment for me, not the surroundings, skill checks, lore, etc.
What I want to know is how many other people agree with me. Should we spend tons of time nitpicking every detail, packing in lore and skill checks, and hiding doors and traps in the effort to tell a grand story, or should we just aim for "good and fun" and try to get more done?
Search your soul and let me know. Said this before, but I'll post here for posterity, do a balance of both. If someone wants a slogfest of mindless click to mob packs, offer them that, but also offer the more intricate skill intensive lore heavy route, no reason a dungeon can't be both, even if it takes longer to be built as a result. You may even get people to try the alternate route to their normal and find they enjoy it |
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Post by EDM Entori on Apr 19, 2018 22:55:12 GMT -5
What I like..
Challenge, immersion and well time constraints in mind. I'm sorry this might be long winded.
Favourite duengons:
A sunken temple, and a acid filled place near skullcraig, with some cool floor traps. Step careful.
liches with hidden rooms (near suzial actually)
I like some hidden duengons in the depths of the server that have been around for ever, but take a huge team to make happen.
Druid quest, somewhere in the hullack.
certain quest with lots of elven lore.
certain place with lots of dwarven lore.
wilderness areas that aren't "quest" driven. but provide challenge/loot all on their own.
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Unfavouited duengons:
Certain Epic quests, blocked by a trap/lock with stupidly high DC's that they cannot be avoided, or circumvented.
Certain non epic quests that have a trap/lock, that despite having the skills, at the level range they are made for, its near impossible to accomplish.
Certain quests that express the "EXPRESS GRATITUDE OF LORD?LADY" without some sort of middle man, or evil option. I know good2shoes would hand in the gemstone and get rewarded, I want to see an evil counterpart that gets triggered as your leaving quest XYZ and goes "PST hey BUB, let me buy that soul in a jar, or what not" the ability to turn in quest rewards in different areas. and evil acts should give evil points again..
A certain BASTARDIZED quest in the hullack that leads to a master of minons but the quest now takes twice as long and the completion gives the least reward of all the epic quests on the server.
fire bettles. - no longer have a point since the whole purpose of their quest has been removed from espar.
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NPC"s
I'm fine having immunites but I'd like a hint, to tell me what my character can see. certain halberd wielding creatures are immune to the death effect of one spell but not of another. I find this stupidly immersion breaking especially when you get the animation associated with it.
dragons who can be blinded now because the true sight is not true sight anymore.
Certain blindness wielding priestesses, that used to be countered by true sight, can no longer be countered in that avenue since the spell change.
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Traps locks,
I know some traps and locks are meant to be epic wielding, but I would just like to see creative ways to get around them. especially locks and traps that whole heartedly block an duengon. especially when a pure rogue has trouble with these. 50-60 dc's are just.. a bit much for me.
I just think they should be avoidable, or at least "Seeable" in some cases. by the average player.
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puzzles, rolls, and class skills:
Bring it on, LORE based, or what have you. the more you make individual characters feel like their skill points are worth it.
animal empathy, persuade, bluff, conversations in general .. bring it on!
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loot:
the loot scripts were rewritten awhile ago, well THAT and the need to beat the "Boss" most places.
I find people are less likely to "try" a quest because often times what is found up until the boss, is rather rubbish. much of it is far to heavy, the rest is just "junk", which I find doesn't help the purse, especially for lower levels trying to gain those early few items.
I find that +1 items are dropping at the highest of gameplay, when most characters aren't purchasing these or +2, they're going straight to +3 because there is no point in buying the lower level gear, and they won't "find" it on their own.
also can we just take traps out of the loot system.. for "chests". kinda stinks to unlock that "epic crate" to get a "minor holy trap"
..
my two cents. they're not worth much, we got rid of pennies in canada.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 0:15:39 GMT -5
Alright, so I ask, for those that like the neat RP pieces of dungeons, the skill rolls that increase the immersion, and the detailed placeables and item descriptions: Does it play a part in your enjoyment of it in the third, fourth, tenth, twentieth times through?
Something I've come to realize about myself, and I think it's true in regards to many people I travel with (and probably far more than that) is that places that tell stories, places that use skill checks, areas that are filled with placeables / hidden doors / other flavor, and generally the more in-depth places are really liked and enjoyed the first couple times - but that's it. Sure you may "say" you like the place, but really, you just cruise through all of it. Most of us (including me) don't stop to look at details after a few run throughs. We insta-click through puzzles and skill checks - we ignore descriptions of placeables and flavor text - we're blind to the detailed environments - we stand in front of hidden doors until they appear - and we walk around (or instantly break the ice around) where we know traps are. Many times we act like we've been here many times even if the area or quest doesn't make sense to be "repeatable" as said above with the War Wizard. Nobody should be acting like they save the War Wizard every week. It should be RP'd as a new thing each time. But we don't, we get lazy and she just cruise through it. I totally get it. I -build- dungeons here and my favorite is Icingdwell, a place with like 3 placeables in the whole thing and pretty much zero lore or story. The details and lore and immersion of the places I've built are awesome - the first few times. After that, I just want to cruise through and kill the monsters. The creature balance and the encounters become most of the enjoyment for me, not the surroundings, skill checks, lore, etc.
What I want to know is how many other people agree with me. Should we spend tons of time nitpicking every detail, packing in lore and skill checks, and hiding doors and traps in the effort to tell a grand story, or should we just aim for "good and fun" and try to get more done?
Search your soul and let me know. Honestly, building dungeons for FRC is an art of its own. Sure, most dungeons will never be as detailed as some inns, towns, guildhalls or other RP locations. However, there is this special quality that each dungeon has. In addition, there are these inner workings and gears of the dungeon that one as builder can sense during the design and construction process. As one advances further with the project, one begins to imagine how the resulting product will be like. Predicting the numerous situations that could develop in the dungeon due to a specific choice or limitation, is also part of this. After giving it some thought, what I like the most of dungeons, and what I always want to accomplish with the ones I build is cohesion. In other words, that the dungeon becomes enjoyable, flows naturally and that appears "complete". With this, I mean that most features and tricks poissible to make the place great have been implemented. Still, I also mean that one must be careful to not "saturate" the dungeon with too much of the same or too much in general. If this is ignored, the natural flow achvieved can result affected. For instance, strategically placed "horde spawns" (the gnoll & goblin huts effect for the non builders), can be great to produce tension, but if one adds too many of them somewhere, the effect is lost and the hordes themselves become a chore. I tend to like an area if some placeables have a description, but if too many placeables have a description, I just end up losing attention and interest after a while. The same goes for any feature that is oversused, really. Descriptions, flavor text and the like, are all for giving hints, but I do not think they should tell the entire (or most) history of the area. Even if adventurers would like to know as much as they can of the area, in the end they are there making their own tale. It is what Extropy reminds us every now and then... "The main goal is to show, rather than to tell". In general, I would say that the best dungeons are those that accomplish this. You want the characters to keep moving, and only make them stop to catch their breath, learn a bit more of lore of the area and solve a puzzle. The dungeon has to remain dynamic from start to finish and this I believe is the key. FRC is mostly built as a Sandbox, which means the dungeons are conatined in an eternal time bubble, until something drastic happens and they are either altered or deleted. |
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Post by bloodalchemist on Apr 20, 2018 0:54:15 GMT -5
Moar giantz pls. The beauty of giants is smaller spawns but much, much harder enemies, easy to hit but gobs of hp and very high ab and damage. Our giants on FrC mostly have rather high ac and are most deadly due to spellcasters. Much as I love both Fire Giants and Frost Giants, they arent really fitting their classic role as enemies, seeing as they are most deadly as mages outside the fire giant wardens. I think the server could use more focus on its mid levels, rather than epic.
As for the mention of traps, I think I'd like to see a little less use of the resetting traps in favor of chest traps, dont punish people fighting in tight spaces, you're just promoting people drawing spawns back and cheesing the ai, we all see enough of that,just make it more profitable to bring a rogue. (and for the love of god nerf the pixie pocket rogues if you wanna enforce party play) Puzzle traps like the forementioned wizards tower in the crag bring a lot of flavor, I think having such that cant be disabled at all, laid out in puzzle patterns with a very narrow path of safety, can be a lot of fun. Require people not only to invest more in their detect skills than the base points and buying all the silly books and other buffing gear, make it so some finesse in moving the character around, and time as well is put into getting more lucrative loot spots.
Also one last suggestion to builders for traps: IGMS Traps!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 7:23:17 GMT -5
Moar giantz pls. The beauty of giants is smaller spawns but much, much harder enemies, easy to hit but gobs of hp and very high ab and damage. Our giants on FrC mostly have rather high ac and are most deadly due to spellcasters. Much as I love both Fire Giants and Frost Giants, they arent really fitting their classic role as enemies, seeing as they are most deadly as mages outside the fire giant wardens. I think the server could use more focus on its mid levels, rather than epic. As for the mention of traps, I think I'd like to see a little less use of the resetting traps in favor of chest traps, dont punish people fighting in tight spaces, you're just promoting people drawing spawns back and cheesing the ai, we all see enough of that,just make it more profitable to bring a rogue. (and for the love of god nerf the pixie pocket rogues if you wanna enforce party play) Puzzle traps like the forementioned wizards tower in the crag bring a lot of flavor, I think having such that cant be disabled at all, laid out in puzzle patterns with a very narrow path of safety, can be a lot of fun. Require people not only to invest more in their detect skills than the base points and buying all the silly books and other buffing gear, make it so some finesse in moving the character around, and time as well is put into getting more lucrative loot spots. Also one last suggestion to builders for traps: IGMS Traps! Part of the reason why the FRC giants have considerable AC, is because the characters that face them tend to favor offense in their build (AB & Damage), rather than additional defensive aspects that are not AC (Constitution, Epic Damage Resistance, Great Health I, X). Thus, it is easier to make the giants difficult to hit for all, than it is to make them super strong to hinder the more powerful characters, while also keeping them balanced for everybody else. I honestly wanted to make Frost ones stronger, but I was adviced not to becuase the newer ones were challenging enough for their intended level range. Still, I suppose a next staion of Frost and Fire Giants could be created for the 25+ crowd. It may take some time though. As for rogues and traps, well I think the problem is that pure or mostly pure rogues suffer due to all those skill enhancing tools that any character can use. For making true rogues better, perhaps what needs to be raised are the DCs of traps, locks and whatever else a rogue should be dealing with. |
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Post by EDM Entori on Apr 20, 2018 8:41:19 GMT -5
What I like.. Challenge, immersion and well time constraints in mind. I'm sorry this might be long winded. Favourite duengons: A sunken temple, and a acid filled place near skullcraig, with some cool floor traps. Step careful. liches with hidden rooms (near suzial actually) I like some hidden duengons in the depths of the server that have been around for ever, but take a huge team to make happen. Druid quest, somewhere in the hullack. certain quest with lots of elven lore. certain place with lots of dwarven lore. wilderness areas that aren't "quest" driven. but provide challenge/loot all on their own. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unfavouited duengons: Certain Epic quests, blocked by a trap/lock with stupidly high DC's that they cannot be avoided, or circumvented. Certain non epic quests that have a trap/lock, that despite having the skills, at the level range they are made for, its near impossible to accomplish. Certain quests that express the "EXPRESS GRATITUDE OF LORD?LADY" without some sort of middle man, or evil option. I know good2shoes would hand in the gemstone and get rewarded, I want to see an evil counterpart that gets triggered as your leaving quest XYZ and goes "PST hey BUB, let me buy that soul in a jar, or what not" the ability to turn in quest rewards in different areas. and evil acts should give evil points again.. A certain BASTARDIZED quest in the hullack that leads to a master of minons but the quest now takes twice as long and the completion gives the least reward of all the epic quests on the server. fire bettles. - no longer have a point since the whole purpose of their quest has been removed from espar. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- NPC"s I'm fine having immunites but I'd like a hint, to tell me what my character can see. certain halberd wielding creatures are immune to the death effect of one spell but not of another. I find this stupidly immersion breaking especially when you get the animation associated with it. dragons who can be blinded now because the true sight is not true sight anymore. Certain blindness wielding priestesses, that used to be countered by true sight, can no longer be countered in that avenue since the spell change. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Traps locks, I know some traps and locks are meant to be epic wielding, but I would just like to see creative ways to get around them. especially locks and traps that whole heartedly block an duengon. especially when a pure rogue has trouble with these. 50-60 dc's are just.. a bit much for me. I just think they should be avoidable, or at least "Seeable" in some cases. by the average player. ---------------------- puzzles, rolls, and class skills: Bring it on, LORE based, or what have you. the more you make individual characters feel like their skill points are worth it. animal empathy, persuade, bluff, conversations in general .. bring it on! -------------------------------------- loot: the loot scripts were rewritten awhile ago, well THAT and the need to beat the "Boss" most places. I find people are less likely to "try" a quest because often times what is found up until the boss, is rather rubbish. much of it is far to heavy, the rest is just "junk", which I find doesn't help the purse, especially for lower levels trying to gain those early few items. I find that +1 items are dropping at the highest of gameplay, when most characters aren't purchasing these or +2, they're going straight to +3 because there is no point in buying the lower level gear, and they won't "find" it on their own. also can we just take traps out of the loot system.. for "chests". kinda stinks to unlock that "epic crate" to get a "minor holy trap" .. my two cents. they're not worth much, we got rid of pennies in canada. also the ""white" washing of monsters. once upon a time you could look at a group and judge if any were specifcly stronger than the others, to make good use of "holding spells" (I no longer get these) often time they had much higher Dc's but I once took it as a point of pride if I managed to save a fellow party member from these creatures by use of holding spells. I suppose that's a little meta-y, but I just like some indication of leaders/"squad leaders"/ "patrol leaders" but that's really down to creature labeling and no so much duengon design. |
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Post by bloodalchemist on Apr 20, 2018 8:53:18 GMT -5
Moar giantz pls. The beauty of giants is smaller spawns but much, much harder enemies, easy to hit but gobs of hp and very high ab and damage. Our giants on FrC mostly have rather high ac and are most deadly due to spellcasters. Much as I love both Fire Giants and Frost Giants, they arent really fitting their classic role as enemies, seeing as they are most deadly as mages outside the fire giant wardens. I think the server could use more focus on its mid levels, rather than epic. As for the mention of traps, I think I'd like to see a little less use of the resetting traps in favor of chest traps, dont punish people fighting in tight spaces, you're just promoting people drawing spawns back and cheesing the ai, we all see enough of that,just make it more profitable to bring a rogue. (and for the love of god nerf the pixie pocket rogues if you wanna enforce party play) Puzzle traps like the forementioned wizards tower in the crag bring a lot of flavor, I think having such that cant be disabled at all, laid out in puzzle patterns with a very narrow path of safety, can be a lot of fun. Require people not only to invest more in their detect skills than the base points and buying all the silly books and other buffing gear, make it so some finesse in moving the character around, and time as well is put into getting more lucrative loot spots. Also one last suggestion to builders for traps: IGMS Traps! Part of the reason why the FRC giants have considerable AC, is because the characters that face them tend to favor offense in their build (AB & Damage), rather than additional defensive aspects that are not AC (Constitution, Epic Damage Resistance, Great Health I, X). Thus, it is easier to make the giants difficult to hit for all, than it is to make them super strong to hinder the more powerful characters, while also keeping them balanced for everybody else. I honestly wanted to make Frost ones stronger, but I was adviced not to becuase the newer ones were challenging enough for their intended level range. Still, I suppose a next staion of Frost and Fire Giants could be created for the 25+ crowd. It may take some time though. As for rogues and traps, well I think the problem is that pure or mostly pure rogues suffer due to all those skill enhancing tools that any character can use. For making true rogues better, perhaps what needs to be raised are the DCs of traps, locks and whatever else a rogue should be dealing with. Nonononono, I love your work on the new frost giants, I think overall they are a fairly big improvement on the last dungeon, however, I think more content for post epics is a waste, server already has massive bloat of epic level chars and we have a number already near level 40. I'd much rather see some more mid level content, like a true mountain or hill giant dungeon for levels 11-18. And I like med/high ab + High Damage monsters because it promotes having an actual tank, rather than just letting a rogue or a buffed up caster manage it, one errant crit will have potential to one shot, either they need to bring help to back them up in case they fall or let an actual tank with hp that can absorb hefty shots do the job. |
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