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Post by Orchid on Apr 11, 2018 2:22:09 GMT -5
There is only one thread I could find referencing this from 11 years ago with one reply from a retired DM and now outdated information as BG is no longer application gated. I write today to ask, given the afik current standing on BG levels: frc.proboards.com/thread/21170/blackguard-prestige-approval-requirement-liftedSpecifically For a character to become a blackguard, contact with an evil outsider must be roleplayed. This can be player driven or accomplished with DM assistance. Please contact a member of the DM Team to participate if assistance is preferred. It was raised in my discussion with some, how would druids feel about demons? I countered not all outsiders are demons. Set, for example in fact approve of Rakshasa, and Blackguards. Not sure if Set qualifies, but it seems based on portfolio he might? That said, I know Sebek qualifies, and ties to Set, as an example. Neutral Evil: nature must be protected from Good, and if fiends manage to destroy the weak, then the survivors will be that much stronger. Several nature deities have a cull the weak mentality *thinking face* The druidic code is really quite vague and undefined, but outsiders aren't among the creatures that they consider unnatural or wrong. Also, only one component of a druid's alignment has to be neutral, remember. You could have a neutral good druid that is a dancing flower wearing hippy who would be horrified by demons, or a neutral evil druid who wields the winds and calls the locusts to destroy towns in the service of Pazuzu. Outsiders by default are well...outside of the natural order, so they wouldn't be unnatural? Some free form thoughts. Curious on the possibilities of this combo in modern FRC, things to be aware of, possible deity suggestions and such. I enjoy playing out of the ordinary characters and given BGs are regarded as divine spellcasters per my research here it seems like a logical step for a more martialy inclined druid to pursue especially a fanatical one. Penguin Extropy Savoie Faire
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Post by Penguin on Apr 11, 2018 8:23:36 GMT -5
I forget whom, but I have actually spoken to a player about this specific topic, being a blackguard/druid combination. While I am no authority on the matter, what I have gleaned from my time playing on FRC and enjoying being a druid is that there should be nothing hard set against this combination. There are all matter of ways in which the "natural order" might be understood. Few if any druids on the server have any issue with the concept of multiple planes each with their own natural order and ways of being. Taking the broad view, it would be no overly hard leap for a druid to see the entire existence of all the planes as part of the "Great natural order" and be willing to follow a deity of said plane.
I do think the RP would be difficult, as the druid would still have to in some manner serve and protect the natural order of his own plane, so whatever entity they follow would have to accept their service on those terms. If a druid were to actively be seeking to create disorder and chaos in a fashion that harms the natural world they would be going against the tenets of being a druid and I would expect them to fall.
The one sticking point,and this is a serious sticking point for me, is that blackguards receive the feat "create undead," and regardless of alignment it is a bastion of the druidic principles to abhor undead. The player I spoke with about this was very clear that at no time would they ever summon undead should they pursue this path. I suppose if a DM was willing to support this a token could be made that causes "create undead" to call forth some lesser planar being instead so that the blackguard/druid could still use the feats of their class without violating its principles, but something like that should not come to be expected.
If the character ever were to use the undead feat to call undead, I believe that is grounds for immediate loss of their druidic status.
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Post by Orchid on Apr 11, 2018 8:46:11 GMT -5
I forget whom, but I have actually spoken to a player about this specific topic, being a blackguard/druid combination. While I am no authority on the matter, what I have gleaned from my time playing on FRC and enjoying being a druid is that there should be nothing hard set against this combination. There are all matter of ways in which the "natural order" might be understood. Few if any druids on the server have any issue with the concept of multiple planes each with their own natural order and ways of being. Taking the broad view, it would be no overly hard leap for a druid to see the entire existence of all the planes as part of the "Great natural order" and be willing to follow a deity of said plane. I do think the RP would be difficult, as the druid would still have to in some manner serve and protect the natural order of his own plane, so whatever entity they follow would have to accept their service on those terms. If a druid were to actively be seeking to create disorder and chaos in a fashion that harms the natural world they would be going against the tenets of being a druid and I would expect them to fall. The one sticking point,and this is a serious sticking point for me, is that blackguards receive the feat "create undead," and regardless of alignment it is a bastion of the druidic principles to abhor undead. The player I spoke with about this was very clear that at no time would they ever summon undead should they pursue this path. I suppose if a DM was willing to support this a token could be made that causes "create undead" to call forth some lesser planar being instead so that the blackguard/druid could still use the feats of their class without violating its principles, but something like that should not come to be expected. If the character ever were to use the undead feat to call undead, I believe that is grounds for immediate loss of their druidic status. It was Heather Hartwood yea, she's part of what drew me to the idea in the first place. I concur, and agree with your sticking point and wouldn't even ask for such in my case. The druid spell line, and summon augments available on the server more than suffice for my needs, from a purely mechanical perspective. So such would only further reinforce my aversion to using such on said character.
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Post by Munroe on Apr 11, 2018 16:06:04 GMT -5
Penguin's answer regarding druid/blackguard sounds reasonable to me. I would like to expand a bit on a couple points though.
I do not think a druid/blackguard should use Create Undead, but nor do I think they should receive substitute summons for this blackguard ability. The ability should remain to create undead, but it should be a sacrifice such a druidic character makes that they understand they must never use it. This means the druid receives slightly less benefit from the blackguard class than others that may take the class. This is a downside of the class combination that I feel should be maintained.
I'd like to add a bit more on the granting of divine power to blackguards, both druid/blackguards and blackguards in general.
All druids in Forgotten Realms receive their powers from Nature Deities. (These are specific, and listed elsewhere.) Deities are themselves outsiders, though being deities grants them immunity to a lot of the weaknesses of outsiders. The most common way for a druid to become a blackguard would be to serve an Evil nature deity, as an Evil nature deity could grant blackguard powers. (Evil outsiders that serve Evil nature deities could also grant blackguard status, but in that case they'd be serving as proxies.)
Native outsiders (such as rakshasa, half-fiends, and even tieflings) dwell primarily on the Prime Material Plane. They are native outsiders that live corporeal lives, and must generally eat and sleep. (Native outsiders can also be Raised or Resurrected, unlike most outsiders.) As such, I would not consider them valid patrons for divine classes. The divine magic granted has to come from somewhere, and these creatures just generally don't have access to that kind of power unless they are going through extraplanar agents.
Evil deities are powerful evil outsiders that can grant the divine power directly, as are archfiends such as the Lords of the Nine Hells and the Abyssal Princes, but low level fiends have to make other plans to grant divine power. In the case of lesser demons, lesser devils, and other weak extraplanar outsiders serving as divine patrons, even if they lack the direct power to grant the class abilities, the idea is that they're making arrangements to grant the power from other sources on their home planes. A devil does so in service to a more powerful devil, and may be pre-approved by its superiors to grant so much of their power via the contracts it arranges. Should a request exceed the power it has been pre-approved to grant, it sends the request up the chain-of-command until it gets to a powerful devil that can choose to grant the power to a subordinate's contract. (It usually does this if there are souls to be gained from doing so, or it can use the contract somehow to gain rank.) A demon can make arrangements with a more powerful demon (though the more powerful demon may just decide to step-in), or it can attempt to siphon power from the Abyss itself, as the Abyss lacks one central hierarchy and behaves in strange ways. Other fiends have other means of granting power, but in general a weak fiend has to seek the power from a more powerful fiend or siphon the power from its home plane. As such, weaker fiends are less likely to sponsor blackguards, or, if they do, have very few that they sponsor.
In other words, please do not consider a native outsider as a blackguard patron unless that native outsider is a deity or demi-power. If you absolutely feel you must seek a native outsider as a divine patron, please discuss it with the DM Team.
I recommend considering more powerful extraplanar fiendish patrons before weaker ones, but it's also possible the blackguard doesn't know what rank of fiend their patron actually is.
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Post by Orchid on Apr 12, 2018 0:08:57 GMT -5
Penguin's answer regarding druid/blackguard sounds reasonable to me. I would like to expand a bit on a couple points though. I do not think a druid/blackguard should use Create Undead, but nor do I think they should receive substitute summons for this blackguard ability. The ability should remain to create undead, but it should be a sacrifice such a druidic character makes that they understand they must never use it. This means the druid receives slightly less benefit from the blackguard class than others that may take the class. This is a downside of the class combination that I feel should be maintained. I'd like to add a bit more on the granting of divine power to blackguards, both druid/blackguards and blackguards in general. All druids in Forgotten Realms receive their powers from Nature Deities. (These are specific, and listed elsewhere.) Deities are themselves outsiders, though being deities grants them immunity to a lot of the weaknesses of outsiders. The most common way for a druid to become a blackguard would be to serve an Evil nature deity, as an Evil nature deity could grant blackguard powers. (Evil outsiders that serve Evil nature deities could also grant blackguard status, but in that case they'd be serving as proxies.) Native outsiders (such as rakshasa, half-fiends, and even tieflings) dwell primarily on the Prime Material Plane. They are native outsiders that live corporeal lives, and must generally eat and sleep. (Native outsiders can also be Raised or Resurrected, unlike most outsiders.) As such, I would not consider them valid patrons for divine classes. The divine magic granted has to come from somewhere, and these creatures just generally don't have access to that kind of power unless they are going through extraplanar agents. Evil deities are powerful evil outsiders that can grant the divine power directly, as are archfiends such as the Lords of the Nine Hells and the Abyssal Princes, but low level fiends have to make other plans to grant divine power. In the case of lesser demons, lesser devils, and other weak extraplanar outsiders serving as divine patrons, even if they lack the direct power to grant the class abilities, the idea is that they're making arrangements to grant the power from other sources on their home planes. A devil does so in service to a more powerful devil, and may be pre-approved by its superiors to grant so much of their power via the contracts it arranges. Should a request exceed the power it has been pre-approved to grant, it sends the request up the chain-of-command until it gets to a powerful devil that can choose to grant the power to a subordinate's contract. (It usually does this if there are souls to be gained from doing so, or it can use the contract somehow to gain rank.) A demon can make arrangements with a more powerful demon (though the more powerful demon may just decide to step-in), or it can attempt to siphon power from the Abyss itself, as the Abyss lacks one central hierarchy and behaves in strange ways. Other fiends have other means of granting power, but in general a weak fiend has to seek the power from a more powerful fiend or siphon the power from its home plane. As such, weaker fiends are less likely to sponsor blackguards, or, if they do, have very few that they sponsor. In other words, please do not consider a native outsider as a blackguard patron unless that native outsider is a deity or demi-power. If you absolutely feel you must seek a native outsider as a divine patron, please discuss it with the DM Team. I recommend considering more powerful extraplanar fiendish patrons before weaker ones, but it's also possible the blackguard doesn't know what rank of fiend their patron actually is. Where, is said list of qualified deities? Also not to worry, as stated no intent on using the create undead. I mentioned the Rakshasa bit as a sort of beginning proxy to the process, not choosing one(a Rakshasa) as a full on patron. if they're applicable I was thinking on Auril, Set, or Sebek based on my research, but happy to look at the list and mull over more. I want to go into thid well infomred so I can do the character, and concept justice.
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Post by DM Hawk on Apr 12, 2018 10:44:56 GMT -5
Hi Orchid,
I have some add'l thoughts to share, with some overlap above.
The nature deities of the Forgotten Realms are listed in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (FRCS) on page 23. Auril isn't specifically listed but that's probably because she's a lesser deity and that group wasn't included in the FRCS (they had to draw a line somewhere). It's a given that she'd counted by her portfolio, having druids listed among her followers, and the more powerful furies are in the nature deities list.
As Munroe points out, in the Forgotten Realms a druid's power comes from one of the nature deities that he or she honors as a patron.
Also, refreshing from old, trusty PHB, "The druid gains her power not by ruling nature but by being at one with it."
So we have two very important relationships for a druid before a Blackguard's pact is considered: Serving a nature deity and being at one with nature.
These prior commitments would naturally place some limitations on Outsiders they would consider making a pact with (pun intended). If an evil druid wished to become a blackguard, they would seek out an Outsider that is aligned with the tenants of their patron nature deity and not violate the unity the druid has with nature.
A being serving the nature deity itself and qualified to act as a proxy would be the most reasonable first choice. Otherwise, they would seek contact with beings (also likely through a proxy) capable of providing the blackguard's power that also aligned in purpose and practice with the druid's chosen nature deity.
Keep in mind that mortals can't normally summon deities or archfiends to them, so contact would most likely be made through some servitor being.
Also from the PHB:
"While druids accept that which is horrific or cruel in nature, they hate that which is unnatural, including aberrations (such as beholders and carrion crawlers) and undead (such as zombies and vampires)." So, it isn't just undead that druids hate. This would likely be a consideration when choosing an outsider for the Blackguard's pact...it would present a conflict to embrace a being that created or made use of such creatures.
Also keep in mind that the armor limitations a druid faces is bound by traditional druidic oaths. Other armor is prohibited. "Druids avoid carrying much worked metal with them because it interferes with the pure and primal nature that they attempt to embody." And, "A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter."
Druids rely upon ironwood to help manage with these restrictions. Becoming a blackguard does not alleviate these restrictions. By the blackguard's pact, a druid is making more commitments, not substituting old ones for new ones.
Please keep this in mind when multi-classing a druid.
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Post by Orchid on Apr 12, 2018 12:10:47 GMT -5
Hi Orchid, I have some add'l thoughts to share, with some overlap above. The nature deities of the Forgotten Realms are listed in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (FRCS) on page 23. Auril isn't specifically listed but that's probably because she's a lesser deity and that group wasn't included in the FRCS (they had to draw a line somewhere). It's a given that she'd counted by her portfolio, having druids listed among her followers, and the more powerful furies are in the nature deities list. As Munroe points out, in the Forgotten Realms a druid's power comes from one of the nature deities that he or she honors as a patron. Also, refreshing from old, trusty PHB, "The druid gains her power not by ruling nature but by being at one with it." So we have two very important relationships for a druid before a Blackguard's pact is considered: Serving a nature deity and being at one with nature. These prior commitments would naturally place some limitations on Outsiders they would consider making a pact with (pun intended). If an evil druid wished to become a blackguard, they would seek out an Outsider that is aligned with the tenants of their patron nature deity and not violate the unity the druid has with nature. A being serving the nature deity itself and qualified to act as a proxy would be the most reasonable first choice. Otherwise, they would seek contact with beings (also likely through a proxy) capable of providing the blackguard's power that also aligned in purpose and practice with the druid's chosen nature deity. Keep in mind that mortals can't normally summon deities or archfiends to them, so contact would most likely be made through some servitor being. Also from the PHB: "While druids accept that which is horrific or cruel in nature, they hate that which is unnatural, including aberrations (such as beholders and carrion crawlers) and undead (such as zombies and vampires)." So, it isn't just undead that druids hate. This would likely be a consideration when choosing an outsider for the Blackguard's pact...it would present a conflict to embrace a being that created or made use of such creatures. Also keep in mind that the armor limitations a druid faces is bound by traditional druidic oaths. Other armor is prohibited. "Druids avoid carrying much worked metal with them because it interferes with the pure and primal nature that they attempt to embody." And, "A druid who wears prohibited armor or carries a prohibited shield is unable to cast druid spells or use any of her supernatural or spell-like abilities while doing so and for 24 hours thereafter." Druids rely upon ironwood to help manage with these restrictions. Becoming a blackguard does not alleviate these restrictions. By the blackguard's pact, a druid is making more commitments, not substituting old ones for new ones. Please keep this in mind when multi-classing a druid. I appreciate all the feedback from everyone. Also, I get the message guys, undead =/= druid. Loud and clear received, again no planning on using it Good lookin out on the clarifications and addendums here too though. ^^
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Post by Munroe on Apr 12, 2018 19:55:15 GMT -5
Where, is said list of qualified deities? Also not to worry, as stated no intent on using the create undead. I mentioned the Rakshasa bit as a sort of beginning proxy to the process, not choosing one(a Rakshasa) as a full on patron. if they're applicable I was thinking on Auril, Set, or Sebek based on my research, but happy to look at the list and mull over more. I want to go into thid well infomred so I can do the character, and concept justice.
The nature deities of the Forgotten Realms are listed in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (FRCS) on page 23. Auril isn't specifically listed but that's probably because she's a lesser deity and that group wasn't included in the FRCS (they had to draw a line somewhere). It's a given that she'd counted by her portfolio, having druids listed among her followers, and the more powerful furies are in the nature deities list. As Munroe points out, in the Forgotten Realms a druid's power comes from one of the nature deities that he or she honors as a patron. The list on page 23 of Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (FRCS) is only a partial list. The full list of nature deities appears in Faiths & Pantheons (F&P), on page 90. It's in a sidebar appropriately titled " Complete Nature Deity List" and is quoted below, found in the DM Q&A thread "DM Q&A Druid Information Acceptable Deity" in the DM Q&A sub-forum. The information likely appears elsewhere on the forum as well. I found it very quickly by typing "nature deities" into the search on the DM Q&A page. (Admittedly, I should have linked to it in my first reply, but I thought it was easy to find for anyone that looked.) There's a specific list of deities that are appropriate for a druid on FRC. That list is the same one that appears in the sidebar on page 90 of Faiths and Pantheons. I'm reprinting the sidebar here. Not that the sidebar text says druids AND rangers must have one of the nature deities, but FRC only enforces this list for druids. This is for two reasons: 1.) It's in conflict with the information on rangers in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3e) that says rangers only most commonly follow nature deities, but may follow other deities. 2.) It's in conflict with multiple deity entries in Faiths and Pantheons itself, that mention rangers among the worshipers of non-nature deities. So, while your question isn't really clear, the answer is yes, death is a normal part of the normal cycle of nature. And no, the death deities are not available as selections for a druid's patron, except for Osiris of the Mulhorandi, who is the Mulhorandi god of vegetation, death, the dead, justice and harvest. (His alignment is Lawful Good and his worshipers are listed as attorneys, druids, embalmers, judges, paladins, rangers, and seekers of rightful vengeance.) If this response doesn't answer your question, please clarify your question.
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Post by Orchid on Apr 12, 2018 23:11:11 GMT -5
Cheers again folks, I think based on further research and some other internal amusement factors I'll be going with Umberlee. She accepts NE, has druids, is again another Fury and on the standard nature list and does BGs.
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