Guild RP

[mysticalkas]

FRC Community and DM's,

So today was a fun day, I was out with the VR reserves playing my little man Gill, and wound up in the Elven Settlement in the Hullack. Then I saw two of the Wardens log on, and at first thought, they were going to be part of the RP story. It turns out they were not, so this raised a question that I now pose to the community. 

Since RP is a concept that many here enjoy, and wish to continue doing, would it not be considerate to include members of a guild where you find yourself in their guild areas and locations. Even if events are not planned by a DM to purposely enter a guild location, and the players find themselves there, why not send a tell to the guild members letting them know you're in their area.  After all, Roleplay is stressed here, and it builds a better environment, and player interaction, guild members should be involved in what is rightfully their area. Does this touch on Metagaming, yes, but I think interaction and the spirit of Roleplay would be better applied if guild members were involved regardless if they are part of the plot or not.

Courtesy should be extended to the guild players is all I'm saying. I asked this question to a DM already, and they were all for guild player involvement, so now I pose it to the rest of the community and to the other DM staff members. It was said that there is no way for the DM's to know when a guild member logs in, so perhaps something could be created that would flag their logon, so they could be given the chance to participate in RP for their guild. Since something like this does not exist, then players should be able to tell when someone logs in that are in a guild and send them a tell so they to can participate. Granted, not all players sit around their guild halls waiting for something to happen, and since I have seen on a few occasions where guilds are brought into a story by happenstance,  then let us get the respective guild players involved and grow as a community through respectful roleplay. 

It takes time for DM's to make adjustments IG, and it would be the same amount of time to port a player back to their guild hall to Roleplay out a situation. Plus, since you involved their guild, the player should be made aware of the Roleplay that is taking place, since the NPC's of the guild would undoubtedly inform its members of what happened. I think metagaming could be set aside to further the roleplay standards of FRC, and promote interaction between guild members, players, and DM events.

Thank you.

[FlyingMidget]

I think alot of this falls into courtesy and respect for the group involved with the area and the fact we all desire interaction when it comes to RP. I've spent many many hours in the Elven settlement alone for RP reasons since Tasar joined them it's really not all that fun being alone with nobody to RP with in an area that's so far away from any RP hub that chances of interaction are basically nil, more so as not even the NPC's speak to you unless a DM happens upon you (I've never seen it, or if they have they've probably thought myself afk as I generally start writing up Tasar's private journal at that point).

This isn't just an issue for the Warden's, The Triad has been attacked numerous times without any heads up so they might show a token of activity in the area to my knowledge, the Guardian's likely have the same issue, it wouldn't surprise me if things have happened on Ash Island that should have had a report sent to Zodika and I'm pretty sure the sames happened to the Cabal a few times. I'd also be annoyed if I heard someone attacked the Tipsy Imp, murdered all the NPC's and claimed they got away scot free because nobody bothered to inform those involved with the Tipsy that something might happen and the NPC's weren't able to react appropriately so they never even found out about it.

I've no idea what happened at the Settlement, I've only heard OOC that something happened, I've not seen an IC report on the guild forums from NPC's present that might have let the guild know. The guild forums do exist, even if it's a heat of the moment deal a DM can post that something might be going down in the area for the guild to pop in a token presence if possible, perhaps their scouts have seen something and a sending was made to the guild members regarding it? or an NPC making a report about what transpired at the end of the event if nobody was able to make it during the time. (At least with the Elven Settlement, getting there requires a what 40 minute walk? that's plenty of time for a two line forum message that something might be making it's way there and if anyone can make it, it might be an enjoyable spot of RP for them).

While a tell or forum post (these happen for organizing other dm events anyway) might be metagaming to encourage roleplay, it's also kinda metagaming to claim that none of the guild (PC's or NPC's) were present, able to react or saw what happened to make a report.
Just my two cents,
FM.

[Deleted]

In fairness the decision to head there wasn't of the DM's that night and came up through rp. Teleporting into the hullack giving no time for someone to be contacted. None of us knew rp would turn in that direction and was completely player driven. The decision to place ourselves at the particular settlement came within 10 mins or so after the rp idea to explore a certain route of rp.
Players I'm sure would have been happy to have some of the wardens to talk with but it seems individual players may know more about the guild rosters than any of the dms. I know the dwarven guild has worked recently with the reserve guard to some degree so it does happen already.

[erratic1]

Feb 18, 2018 2:05:20 GMT -5 mysticalkas said:

FRC Community and DM's,

So today was a fun day, I was out with the VR reserves playing my little man Gill, and wound up in the Elven Settlement in the Hullack. Then I saw two of the Wardens log on, and at first thought, they were going to be part of the RP story. It turns out they were not, so this raised a question that I now pose to the community. 

Since RP is a concept that many here enjoy, and wish to continue doing, would it not be considerate to include members of a guild where you find yourself in their guild areas and locations. Even if events are not planned by a DM to purposely enter a guild location, and the players find themselves there, why not send a tell to the guild members letting them know you're in their area.  After all, Roleplay is stressed here, and it builds a better environment, and player interaction, guild members should be involved in what is rightfully their area. Does this touch on Metagaming, yes, but I think interaction and the spirit of Roleplay would be better applied if guild members were involved regardless if they are part of the plot or not.

Courtesy should be extended to the guild players is all I'm saying. I asked this question to a DM already, and they were all for guild player involvement, so now I pose it to the rest of the community and to the other DM staff members. It was said that there is no way for the DM's to know when a guild member logs in, so perhaps something could be created that would flag their logon, so they could be given the chance to participate in RP for their guild. Since something like this does not exist, then players should be able to tell when someone logs in that are in a guild and send them a tell so they to can participate. Granted, not all players sit around their guild halls waiting for something to happen, and since I have seen on a few occasions where guilds are brought into a story by happenstance,  then let us get the respective guild players involved and grow as a community through respectful roleplay. 

It takes time for DM's to make adjustments IG, and it would be the same amount of time to port a player back to their guild hall to Roleplay out a situation. Plus, since you involved their guild, the player should be made aware of the Roleplay that is taking place, since the NPC's of the guild would undoubtedly inform its members of what happened. I think metagaming could be set aside to further the roleplay standards of FRC, and promote interaction between guild members, players, and DM events.

Thank you.

If there are no players from a guild represented in what is essentially a zone that all (within the constraints of roleplay) characters can visit, then I'm not really sure that there's anything a DM can do. If this where to be implemented in the future, what's to stop Purple Dragon players asking to be present whenever a crime is being commited in Thunderstone, or any other settlement for that matter? Or any priest to ask to be present if their own shrine has or is about to be defiled? (This used to be a very common occurence).

Metagaming doesn't improve roleplay, it promotes more metagaming, afterall, what's good for one group of players is good for another. Unless we start to show favouritism.

I'm not saying that this is going on now, but it's a real slippery slope to start down on and I'd be very wary of attempting to implement anything like this.

[zerohin]

I for one agree with both FM and Mysticalkas. But I would also argue that, if you see an opportunity for this type of interaction and know the players that log in to be guild members, then it becomes your responsibility as a player to notify the DM running the event. As PushtoPrime mentioned, not all DMs know the roster of every guild, nor do they always watch the incoming player notifications while they are running an event. From what I have seen it seems to be a very hectic endeavor and any help from the player is typically appreciated.

In the future, a simple DM whisper is likely to solve the problem. This will allow the DM to make a decision about what action should be taken whether it be notifying the guild members directly at that time, or simply dropping a note on the forums that something occurred that they can look into later if they are so inclined.

It has been my experience that the biggest sources of frustration in my life come from lack of communication. That is something that is very easy to fix in my opinion.

[mandene]

Metagaming isn't just black and white, it's not even "degrees in hell" - it's a gray scale where you need to choose your battles. Most players here metagame to a degree in one way or another. If you send your friends tells and converge somewhere to go on a trip, because it's more fun than sitting alone in a tavern or running around the whole server trying to figure out where they are - you are metagaming. Even checking out who's online before you log in and choose what character to play can be considered metagaming. Frankly, every single person that drops their RP and hurry across entire Cormyr because a DM shouts out that there's bells ringing in Marsember are metagaming.

There is a thin line between allowing a little bit of metagaming so that it's fun for all present and involving more people, and metagaming as a way to cheat for your own advantage. It could even be argued that NOT involving a guild (as in what the paladins have been experiencing) is metagaming for the other group's benefit.

And lastly, using your own argument about the defiled shrine - consider the side of the priest of the defiled shrine, when he doesn't even gets to know that the shrine has been defiled; has roleplayed around the shrine for days, and then finds out through in game rumor that the shrine has been defiled. I'd find it extremely frustrating - I wouldn't necessarily -have- to be there when the shrine is defiled, but I would like to have known that it has.

[StabbingNirvana]

Feb 18, 2018 9:05:23 GMT -5 erratic1 said:

If there are no players from a guild represented in what is essentially a zone that all (within the constraints of roleplay) characters can visit, then I'm not really sure that there's anything a DM can do. If this where to be implemented in the future, what's to stop Purple Dragon players asking to be present whenever a crime is being commited in Thunderstone, or any other settlement for that matter? Or any priest to ask to be present if their own shrine has or is about to be defiled? (This used to be a very common occurence).

Metagaming doesn't improve roleplay, it promotes more metagaming, afterall, what's good for one group of players is good for another. Unless we start to show favouritism.

I'm not saying that this is going on now, but it's a real slippery slope to start down on and I'd be very wary of attempting to implement anything like this.

I think the first thing that would stop Purple Dragon characters asking to be present whenever a crime is being committed in Thunderstone is that the purple dragon guild mission isn't primarily law enforcement and definitely isn't law enforcement of Thunderstone. Thunderstone isn't in the RCMH guild jurisdiction. The RCMH keep though definitely is though. The difference comes in when DM run/sanctioned events start taking place on RCMH Fortress headquarters when things start getting tricky without due notice of an event. But then again, the RCMH isn't exactly the best example since they're essentially a DM run guild who's past leader PCs have always been a DM character and IC are held in place by the powers that be in Cormyr, so they aren't exactly equivalent to guys like the Triad or Ironsworn (disclaimer: as far as I know) who had complete sovereignty from outside forces.

Metagaming could be claimed for anything, ever. I'd heavily argue any claim of favoritism though. I'd like to believe that people that build up guilds have put a lot of effort into building that guild and protecting that investment is something that should be afforded to those guild players. Nudging guild players that are online at the time or organizing in advance with the guild for an event that may happen in the future isn't showing favoritism. It's common courtesy. Sure, the DM may try and preserve some dignity for the guild, but they won't care enough about the guild as the guild players to preserve that dignity for it. I'm sure that during any attack on the Triad keep any of the members would have been willing to spend their entire gold and supply count to take down the attacker/s. It also would cement the idea that players have the freedom to attack these places but that you should be ready to have a very, very strong response from the players and NPCs alike.

This goes for peaceful interactions as well. I personally wouldn't want a decision made by anyone outside the guild, including DMs. If a member of the guild isn't present, they should be turned away until someone is present or offered room and board or other methods of contact with the guild players. To be fair though, in my experience and memory this peaceful interaction never happened. It's only been attacks.

[Animayhem]

Guilds are nice and a way for players of like ideas to meet.  Yet lets face it it can be hard to get everyone together.  DM's do a good job in trying to coordinate things.

There have been a few instances where some "specific" events would of also fallen under Guardian rp but none of us were involved due to not being notified which is fine but can be disappointing.

In cases like this it would be nice if the Guardians were informed after the fact for instance to maybe persue on are own or another incident which may have been in the rp of another guild though no members were present.

Many things which have occurred could be considered cross guild rp and maybe some more planned events can be such?

 I do not  think it is metagaming in reference to the following:


1. Checking to see who is in game before choosing a character.

Many times this is the only way to contact people to follow up with established rp.

2. Sending tells to coordinate meetings

It is the only way outside of forum pm's.  This place does not have a message system by which one can send letters either to individuals or a group to gather.


Do not misunderstand me I think it is great when guilds have specific rp.   I also know that their are some new dm's and some returning ones and it takes time to get acquainted with things.

[Fenix]

Feb 18, 2018 13:17:41 GMT -5 Animayhem said:

Guilds are nice and a way for players of like ideas to meet.  Yet lets face it it can be hard to get everyone together.  DM's do a good job in trying to coordinate things.

There have been a few instances where some "specific" events would of also fallen under Guardian rp but none of us were involved due to not being notified which is fine but can be disappointing.

In cases like this it would be nice if the Guardians were informed after the fact for instance to maybe persue on are own or another incident which may have been in the rp of another guild though no members were present.

Many things which have occurred could be considered cross guild rp and maybe some more planned events can be such?

 I do not  think it is metagaming in reference to the following:


1. Checking to see who is in game before choosing a character.

Many times this is the only way to contact people to follow up with established rp.

2. Sending tells to coordinate meetings

It is the only way outside of forum pm's.  This place does not have a message system by which one can send letters either to individuals or a group to gather.


Do not misunderstand me I think it is great when guilds have specific rp.   I also know that their are some new dm's and some returning ones and it takes time to get acquainted with things.

I feel like that falls under the responsibility of the characters in the guardians to find out about, not the DMs to inform players that arent online that something might maybe be of interest to them.

[Abii]

I think theres already atleast one 'event' with guardians going on, its only their decission if they will participe or not

[mandene]

Feb 18, 2018 13:19:48 GMT -5 Fenix said:

Feb 18, 2018 13:17:41 GMT -5 Animayhem said:

Guilds are nice and a way for players of like ideas to meet.  Yet lets face it it can be hard to get everyone together.  DM's do a good job in trying to coordinate things.

There have been a few instances where some "specific" events would of also fallen under Guardian rp but none of us were involved due to not being notified which is fine but can be disappointing.

In cases like this it would be nice if the Guardians were informed after the fact for instance to maybe persue on are own or another incident which may have been in the rp of another guild though no members were present.

Many things which have occurred could be considered cross guild rp and maybe some more planned events can be such?

 I do not  think it is metagaming in reference to the following:


1. Checking to see who is in game before choosing a character.

Many times this is the only way to contact people to follow up with established rp.

2. Sending tells to coordinate meetings

It is the only way outside of forum pm's.  This place does not have a message system by which one can send letters either to individuals or a group to gather.


Do not misunderstand me I think it is great when guilds have specific rp.   I also know that their are some new dm's and some returning ones and it takes time to get acquainted with things.

I feel like that falls under the responsibility of the characters in the guardians to find out about, not the DMs to inform players that arent online that something might maybe be of interest to them.

I understand what you are saying, but the danger of this way of thinking boils down to...

.. well the best explenation is in the "Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy".

Mr. Prosser said: ”You were quite entitled to make any suggestions or protests at the appropriate time you know.”
”Appropriate time?” hooted Arthur. ”Appropriate time? The first I knew about it was when a workman arrived at my home yesterday. I asked him if he’d come to clean the windows and he said no he’d come to demolish the house. He didn’t tell me straight away of course. Oh no. First he wiped a couple of windows and charged me a fiver. Then he told me.”
"But Mr. Dent, the plans have been available in the local planning office for the last nine month.”
”Oh yes, well as soon as I heard I went straight round to see them, yesterday afternoon. You hadn’t exactly gone out of your way to call attention to them had you? I mean like actually telling anybody or anything.”
”But the plans were on display . . . ”
”On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
”That’s the display department.”
”With a flashlight.”
”Ah, well the lights had probably gone.”
”So had the stairs.”
”But look, you found the notice didn’t you?”
”Yes,” said Arthur, ”yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard.”

And the slightly more funnier part with the planet being destroyed for inter-galactic motorway.... where it's the planet inhabitants responsibility to check out the plans that were on display...



....

[Edit] Basically, you can't be expected to be looking for and asking for something you didn't know you needed to care about or ask for in the first place.

[malclave]

Feb 18, 2018 13:17:41 GMT -5 Animayhem said:

 I do not  think it is metagaming in reference to the following:


1. Checking to see who is in game before choosing a character.

Many times this is the only way to contact people to follow up with established rp.

2. Sending tells to coordinate meetings

It is the only way outside of forum pm's.  This place does not have a message system by which one can send letters either to individuals or a group to gather.

(tangent)

I would argue that those examples are metagaming, as they are using ooc knowledge/ actions that affect gameplay. However, I think they are widely considered acceptable, if not outright beneficial, metagaming as they not only do not materially advantage the player but also enhance others' gameplay. Another example might be switching characters to join a group (or event) being formed.

(/tangent)

Back to the main topic, it sounds like in this instance the decision to go to the elven settlement (you mean there's an elven settlement other than under the tree outside Garrot's? ) wasn't part of the plan. So, it's understandable that the group wasn't given a heads-up. I suspect if it had been planned, they would have been included. IIRC, recent VR Reserves activities have included joint events with both the dwarves and with the Ironsworn (I think?).

As to things like attacks on strongholds, my first thought is to wonder how much notice to give the defenders. Obviously, the attackers would want to gain surprise, while the defenders would not only want to gather reinforcements but as players participate in an event that clearly affects them.

[mysticalkas]

Well, yea, sometimes there can not be any prior knowledge of possible RP situations. That is only common sense. I'm just saying that while this RP was going on, TWO players I knew were Wardens logged on. So to advance RP for that environment, and to be courteous, just send them a tell before they enter through a door so they can go to their respective guild halls and partake in what they pledged t uphold.

This seems a very common occurrence across all guilds, This was not supposed to be about anything other than involving guild members through tells, or DM notification, guild RP etc... Let's just not make this something other than what it is. Being respectful to guilds and its members, regardless of this or that.

The guilds are set for FRC players to join and promote, this is just extending more courtesy to the members of those guilds to further Roleplay and involvement. Everyone take a deep breath and relax. The FRC storyline will not fall apart because of a player to player tell or DM post to guild members.

Everyone seems to want to hit at ideas about immersion breakdown. If something happens in a guild then post about it, if players are present for that guild, get them involved so they can post about it if there is time. Guilds are a part of FRC life, but they are not being used in accordance how guilds would really be used. For instance to yesterdays Elven settlement.

If I was on Amilith instead of Gill, I would have taken the whole group to the foot entrance instead of using the portal. I would do this not because he has a bias about humans or anything like that, I would have them walk simply because Amilith likes to walk, and sees no reason in expending magic for something that your own two legs and do. Now that said, it accomplishes a few things by doing walking, players see parts of the server they have not seen before and introduces encounters for them with other creatures, such as drow ghosts. It also takes them past a merchant that they may not know about, and finally parades them past a group of Wardens NPC that "watches them" supposedly. All of this could have been accomplished if I was on Amilith, and I got a tell. That is good RP, and guild involvement, he would also have been present in the Lords hall to monitor what was said, and report about it in the guild forums. This report would make other members have questions, and start seeking out answers to the questions which will promote RP overall, and might even promote more guild to guild RP and to work together or have problems between the two. But that's just RP right. Cause how can one guild, go into another guild area and know nothing.

[erratic1]

Feb 18, 2018 11:15:23 GMT -5 StabbingNirvana said:

Feb 18, 2018 9:05:23 GMT -5 erratic1 said:

If there are no players from a guild represented in what is essentially a zone that all (within the constraints of roleplay) characters can visit, then I'm not really sure that there's anything a DM can do. If this where to be implemented in the future, what's to stop Purple Dragon players asking to be present whenever a crime is being commited in Thunderstone, or any other settlement for that matter? Or any priest to ask to be present if their own shrine has or is about to be defiled? (This used to be a very common occurence).

Metagaming doesn't improve roleplay, it promotes more metagaming, afterall, what's good for one group of players is good for another. Unless we start to show favouritism.

I'm not saying that this is going on now, but it's a real slippery slope to start down on and I'd be very wary of attempting to implement anything like this.

I think the first thing that would stop Purple Dragon characters asking to be present whenever a crime is being committed in Thunderstone is that the purple dragon guild mission isn't primarily law enforcement and definitely isn't law enforcement of Thunderstone. Thunderstone isn't in the RCMH guild jurisdiction. The RCMH keep though definitely is though. The difference comes in when DM run/sanctioned events start taking place on RCMH Fortress headquarters when things start getting tricky without due notice of an event. But then again, the RCMH isn't exactly the best example since they're essentially a DM run guild who's past leader PCs have always been a DM character and IC are held in place by the powers that be in Cormyr, so they aren't exactly equivalent to guys like the Triad or Ironsworn (disclaimer: as far as I know) who had complete sovereignty from outside forces.

Metagaming could be claimed for anything, ever. I'd heavily argue any claim of favoritism though. I'd like to believe that people that build up guilds have put a lot of effort into building that guild and protecting that investment is something that should be afforded to those guild players. Nudging guild players that are online at the time or organizing in advance with the guild for an event that may happen in the future isn't showing favoritism. It's common courtesy. Sure, the DM may try and preserve some dignity for the guild, but they won't care enough about the guild as the guild players to preserve that dignity for it. I'm sure that during any attack on the Triad keep any of the members would have been willing to spend their entire gold and supply count to take down the attacker/s. It also would cement the idea that players have the freedom to attack these places but that you should be ready to have a very, very strong response from the players and NPCs alike.

This goes for peaceful interactions as well. I personally wouldn't want a decision made by anyone outside the guild, including DMs. If a member of the guild isn't present, they should be turned away until someone is present or offered room and board or other methods of contact with the guild players. To be fair though, in my experience and memory this peaceful interaction never happened. It's only been attacks.

The groups I mentioned where purely examples- It's irrelevant if it promotes roleplay or not because if a roleplay scene comes from metagamed information then that whole scene should not have happened in the first place. As far as I know a DM isn't responsible for any factions' dignity or respect- that's up to the groups themselves to earn that and to keep themselves active. There's already somewhat of a disparity of DM attention- groups and factions already get way more DM consideration than players that are not part of such groups, they don't need even more time, nor should they get favouritism within the ruleset just because they're part of a faction.

Metagaming is still metagaming, it's a rule already warped and skirted by neccessity and we don't need to keep making provisions and exceptions to what is a very important rule. Some players here already have a hard time seperating IC from OOC.

[Lady Frost]

If I'm on and anyone comes to Ash Isle, I'd -love- to get a tell. I doubt Zodika will personally make an appearance - because she has people for that - but it gives me a chance to provide the scene with which the player may find their character.

I do my best to keep up the atmosphere and tell stories of the Island and Gargoyle so people already have the feeling of what's going on before they get there. They don't look at a guard and wonder if he'll do this or that. They know the guards are cautious, they question people, and they refuse entrance to those that arrive without a good reason. They know it's a generally unfriendly place, though it's very lawful and if you're within the bounds of the law, you will probably be fine. It allows them to roleplay accordingly.

As a side note: I think a big place the server lacks is the overall atmosphere of areas across the server. I don't think there are enough random stories, random events, or detailed in-game descriptions that provide players the feeling and atmosphere of server locations. I think this leads to misrepresentation of NPC's, guards, and even creatures or monsters.


Back to topic, I think if your PC is in an area that a guild would generally know about - like Ash Isle for the Gargoyle, or the settlement for the Wardens - and you know a player from that guild is around, they'd probably appreciate you mentioning your PC is there and that their guild would likely be aware of it, ESPECIALLY if your PC's presence would be a big deal. For example, a while back I posted that Zodika was working her way through the Hullack towards the elven settlement. I gave the guild members and elves in general full chance to be a part of it, and know of it. A player of an elf even ended up joining me in the thread. I never take Zodika to the elven settlement in-game because I know her presence there would draw -a lot- of attention and it's not fair to take her there without the settlement being able to respond appropriately.

So, in general, I think it's a polite courtesy, yes - and if your PC's presence would create a strong reaction or their efforts are to change the status quo, I think it's important to make sure this is done.

[FlyingMidget]

Feb 18, 2018 19:19:08 GMT -5 erratic1 said:

The groups I mentioned where purely examples- It's irrelevant if it promotes roleplay or not because if a roleplay scene comes from metagamed information then that whole scene should not have happened in the first place. As far as I know a DM isn't responsible for any factions' dignity or respect- that's up to the groups themselves to earn that and to keep themselves active. There's already somewhat of a disparity of DM attention- groups and factions already get way more DM consideration than players that are not part of such groups, they don't need even more time, nor should they get favouritism within the ruleset just because they're part of a faction.

Metagaming is still metagaming, it's a rule already warped and skirted by neccessity and we don't need to keep making provisions and exceptions to what is a very important rule. Some players here already have a hard time seperating IC from OOC.

I always thought it was rather important if something promotes roleplay, I suppose DM's are going to have to stop making shouts and players and DM's will have to stop trying to coordinate events OOCly because if you couldn't make it,  you just couldn't make it.

Is there really a disparity of DM attention for such groups? I actually had more DM attention before I joined any of the guilds I've been apart of (and it tended to start back up shortly after leaving a guild), the last DM attention Tasar had to my knowledge outside of attending an RMCH muster (which wasn't setup as a DM event and could have easily had none, but one showed up to make it more lively) was back before Tasar was part of the Wardens, I think there's this perceived feeling that guilds get an insane amount more DM attention then anyone else, my own experiences with guilds point towards the opposite so it's lead me to believe it's more like "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" sorta thing.

I disagree with your earlier example as well, alot of guilds and groups have public areas, the Warden's protect the entirety of Arulem, then there's the Tipsy Imp which is basically open for anyone to enter, the Cabal has/had a place that anyone could get to, the Gargoyle has Ash Island, The Triad used to have Pilgrims path and a temple that were publicly accessible, The Dwarves have a very public guild area as well.  Last I checked the public area of the RCMH would be their outpost exterior, you could go there simple enough however the NPC used to say something regarding reaching the gates needing proper clearance to go further.   The Alizarin also have a rather public place, almost the entity of their place is public.

The thing is, almost every group or guild with a base of operations alot of these places are the homes for the characters in the group, the places they go back to to sleep and rest, research, work or just relax, places where they would likely be if they were off-screen, places these adventurers would protect, would wake up or head to a particular part if a commotion happened.  Seems sorta like metagaming to outright claim, nope none of these characters were online or in the area therefore they do not exist because of time zones, schedules or simply being busy, the NPC's do not exist so they could not send for them or report what happened.  I think this sort of thinking is part of the reason the Triad now has a giant gate infront of Pilgrims Path that blocks access to their previously public area, because they were not given even small chances to defend their home or courtesy to react properly to such an attack, places their characters would be alot of the time.

FM.

[StabbingNirvana]

Feb 18, 2018 19:19:08 GMT -5 erratic1 said:

The groups I mentioned where purely examples- It's irrelevant if it promotes roleplay or not because if a roleplay scene comes from metagamed information then that whole scene should not have happened in the first place. As far as I know a DM isn't responsible for any factions' dignity or respect- that's up to the groups themselves to earn that and to keep themselves active. There's already somewhat of a disparity of DM attention- groups and factions already get way more DM consideration than players that are not part of such groups, they don't need even more time, nor should they get favouritism within the ruleset just because they're part of a faction.

Metagaming is still metagaming, it's a rule already warped and skirted by neccessity and we don't need to keep making provisions and exceptions to what is a very important rule. Some players here already have a hard time seperating IC from OOC.

A DM not being responsible for the faction's dignity is precisely the reason why the DM should try and get guild members involved in events that directly involve a guild. I would think the courtesy of a player run guild making player run decisions would be a skirted by necessity metagaming exception. No?

[Harpers Live and Die]

Please notify the Harpers of any clandestine activity to be undertaken within "areas where our agents might be located"*.



*That means "Everywhere"**.


**We're everywhere.

[mandene]

Feb 19, 2018 7:11:37 GMT -5 Harpers Live and Die said:

Please notify the Harpers of any clandestine activity to be undertaken within "areas where our agents might be located"*.



*That means "Everywhere"**.


**We're everywhere.

Just for you guys, I feel like I need the Tel'Teukiira. Where's that Not-So-Nameless-Anymore son of the Half-Blood Arun?

[malclave]

Feb 19, 2018 7:11:37 GMT -5 Harpers Live and Die said:

Please notify the Harpers of any clandestine activity to be undertaken within "areas where our agents might be located"*.

ANY clandestine activity?

Timmy the farmer's son has a copy of Playelf hidden in a tree stump... but you didn't hear that from me.

[FORSETIS]

I can get on board with this. There are things that happen that Elith or those in his employ would tell him about. But that doesnt happen. Either lack of communication from DMs or players running something within his "reach". And then later I get the "Why didnt you do something" or "How could you not know". And its very immersion breaking. Some things happening without as much of a twitch from Elith is just silly. But some players do make the extra effort. And I appreciate them. And I reciprocate the gesture.

[erratic1]

Feb 18, 2018 23:52:39 GMT -5 FlyingMidget said:

Feb 18, 2018 19:19:08 GMT -5 erratic1 said:

The groups I mentioned where purely examples- It's irrelevant if it promotes roleplay or not because if a roleplay scene comes from metagamed information then that whole scene should not have happened in the first place. As far as I know a DM isn't responsible for any factions' dignity or respect- that's up to the groups themselves to earn that and to keep themselves active. There's already somewhat of a disparity of DM attention- groups and factions already get way more DM consideration than players that are not part of such groups, they don't need even more time, nor should they get favouritism within the ruleset just because they're part of a faction.

Metagaming is still metagaming, it's a rule already warped and skirted by neccessity and we don't need to keep making provisions and exceptions to what is a very important rule. Some players here already have a hard time seperating IC from OOC.

I always thought it was rather important if something promotes roleplay, I suppose DM's are going to have to stop making shouts and players and DM's will have to stop trying to coordinate events OOCly because if you couldn't make it,  you just couldn't make it.

Is there really a disparity of DM attention for such groups? I actually had more DM attention before I joined any of the guilds I've been apart of (and it tended to start back up shortly after leaving a guild), the last DM attention Tasar had to my knowledge outside of attending an RMCH muster (which wasn't setup as a DM event and could have easily had none, but one showed up to make it more lively) was back before Tasar was part of the Wardens, I think there's this perceived feeling that guilds get an insane amount more DM attention then anyone else, my own experiences with guilds point towards the opposite so it's lead me to believe it's more like "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" sorta thing.

I disagree with your earlier example as well, alot of guilds and groups have public areas, the Warden's protect the entirety of Arulem, then there's the Tipsy Imp which is basically open for anyone to enter, the Cabal has/had a place that anyone could get to, the Gargoyle has Ash Island, The Triad used to have Pilgrims path and a temple that were publicly accessible, The Dwarves have a very public guild area as well.  Last I checked the public area of the RCMH would be their outpost exterior, you could go there simple enough however the NPC used to say something regarding reaching the gates needing proper clearance to go further.   The Alizarin also have a rather public place, almost the entity of their place is public.

The thing is, almost every group or guild with a base of operations alot of these places are the homes for the characters in the group, the places they go back to to sleep and rest, research, work or just relax, places where they would likely be if they were off-screen, places these adventurers would protect, would wake up or head to a particular part if a commotion happened.  Seems sorta like metagaming to outright claim, nope none of these characters were online or in the area therefore they do not exist because of time zones, schedules or simply being busy, the NPC's do not exist so they could not send for them or report what happened.  I think this sort of thinking is part of the reason the Triad now has a giant gate infront of Pilgrims Path that blocks access to their previously public area, because they were not given even small chances to defend their home or courtesy to react properly to such an attack, places their characters would be alot of the time.

FM.

Please also bear in mind that these groups are all created by players and run for the most part by players. (The only group that isn't is the RCMH, AFAIK).

So is it right that just because you're part of a group, or are running a group that you should be given information that not neccesarily would be known by your character. Just because he/she lives at a location doesn't mean they would know something is going on there. Is there a chance? Yes there is a chance, and I concede to Forestis' point- something that is obvious should be, well, obviously known. However this is a call for the DM to make and certainly not any one player or groups' right to know without any pertinent evidence or a good reason that your character would be at that location at that specific time- living there or nearby is not a good enough reason. Please also bear in mind there's several reasons why your character possibly doesn't or couldn't know. Therefore how is it unreasonable to assume that if you don't know, your character doesn't know.. unless a DM chooses to tell you. Maybe even ask a DM who is running the event if this is information pertinent to your character, or information that would be passed onto your character.

As for OOC co-ordination, yes I'm well aware of such and the game would be unplayable if this wasn't allowed. There'd actually be no point logging in to play. This is the neccesary warping and skirting that I mentioned, and also an important social component that shouldn't be stretched too far. For example you can get into really big trouble if you misteleport somewhere and then die and then beg for a rescue via tells- and so does the rescuer if attempted. I've had OOC arguments with players for refusing to rescue them because they had died and nobody was with them and they wanted a rescue. This is common knowledge and also yet people still attempt to bend this rule because they dislike following it. Whilst not the focus of this conversation it's one of the reasons why this type of ooc information sharing is another step down from where we are and where we do not want to go to. OOC information should always be used sparingly beyond this and never just because "My character would know because he lives in that town or city or street or bar" - that's actually not a very good reason at all when you break it down.

[Pithirendar]

My personal opinion:

I think in the spirit of good sportsman ship it would be considerate to involve a DM and/or the players of a guild if you want to infiltrate secure guild areas.

Most guilds have public or semi public areas. While you don't need express permission to enter these areas. If you need to pick a lock or there are NPC's in those areas who would probably question what your intentions are, it would be a fair response to turn away, contact a DM, or guild members and come back another day to try and explore more. Not everything always has to happen instantly. Waiting a few days doesn't hurt anyone but can go a long way to ensuring there are no hard feelings. I recognise it can be frustrating trying to coordinate timezones but the game isn't going anywhere and the story is going to have a lot more depth for all involved.

I think most guilds are open to conflict driven RP with guilds from opposite factions so long as there is some consideration and fairness. I don't think this has always been successful in the past but there is no reason why it couldn't be done this way in the future.

On the DM side - sometimes as a DM you can plan an event and think that you know how the players are going to take it. You plan and set up areas that the players then completely ignore and go off on another tangent (this is GREAT!!) Maybe they want to go to a guild and there isn't anyone from that guild online. Sometimes it's just unavoidable but I know DM's generally try to involve the guild after the fact. By posting in guild forums and/or contacting guild members directly the next time they see them in game.

[mysticalkas]

Just a side note on this one little event that people didn't see important that happened. It has now taken direction in a lot of ways and involved more players, it stirred up a lot of confusion and people are asking questions and actively seeking answers to them. This is just a simple sign that resulted in being respectful. Good job FRC and DM's.