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Post by moulinous on Nov 3, 2005 15:26:14 GMT -5
everyone knows i play a merchant at after talking with three dms now, they all said about the same thing. appraise is to find an items worth, not to persuade a player controlled merchant to lower his cost. so as of this, you will have to rp your way into getting me to lower a cost on an item. no more rogues using there darn appraise skill on me just because i am not a rogue and they know it. Mercantiles is a way of life with the dwarves, i personnally think that dwarves would be pretty set in stone of their prices, but i have allowed a few people to get me lower because they rp it really well. since i am not a dm, sure, i will lower if it really sounds like a convincing arguement, not if its a darn die roll. Thanks to the dms that got back to me so quick.
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Nov 3, 2005 16:12:06 GMT -5
I would argue though that if you roll opposed appraise checks against another player then they might more accurately determine the TRUE worth of the item. This does not mean that they should get a discount beyond that. However the probelm is, how does your dwarf know the value of the goods?
I mean, philosophically, how does anyone know the true price of an item? Take for instance, who came up with the price for an apple? It was just a number that was guessed on by supply and demand and the current worth of currency...
That aside. Just because someone beats you at an appraise roll doesn't mean that you have to give them a discount, however, you should not be selling items above the cost of what a merchant sells them anyways. So if someone is buying gear from you and they try to argue price, I would tell them to go shove it and buy it from a store where it will cost them 25% more anyways.
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Post by moulinous on Nov 3, 2005 16:31:14 GMT -5
just to let everyone know, guldar has never sold an item above what it cost at a npc merchant shop. why would anyone buy for that? what i am saying is that for the sake of rping, unless you cast charm on a pc, the pc can and should be able to tell you as Quadhund said, shove it. which i am saying my guy will say from now on. i have seen numerous people do this to others as well and it never sat right with me when they, in game tried to say you had to roll to see how your pc will act. i control my pc and if i say he says go to heck in a hand basket well, thats what he says. i think the die bags are good for somethings but not to take the place of rping. to me that borderline smacks of meta gaming. Yes, some player merchants do carry highlevel stuff as well as stuff for newbies, but you must rp to get it at the price you want is basically the jist of my rant...wow, that is my biggest rant ever.(lol, i sound like a whiny jerk.)
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Nov 3, 2005 16:33:52 GMT -5
No you kinda sound like me ....
Wait that means Im a whiny jerk *ponders a moment*
YESS!!!
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Post by Talus on Nov 3, 2005 16:38:02 GMT -5
Well Kam's phrase is. If you find a better deal...take it. He'll haggle sometimes, but it depends on the person he's dealing with.
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avi
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by avi on Nov 3, 2005 21:30:25 GMT -5
I've gone through several fall outs over this and finally with the majority of players I would be bothered with and a few DMs puzzled out the following for bartering using checks...
First off it can go both ways. The player with the items can set the price they think is an average price for such an item, lets say the item is a +1 shield and gold availibity for PCs makes it worth about 1000gp.
The Players involved in the barter must agree ahead of time to do the bartering checks, if they say no rp as you might without causing hard feelings if you dont get what you want. but...
First out the gate are counter appraise checks. Beforehand both players decide on the variance in price from what the seller considers average price per difference in appraise checks, and that this works both ways. For the example with the shield lets call it at 10gp per point of difference in checks. The appraise showing what the PCs would each think it is worth.
Now the seller rolls a 19 on their appraise check, and the buy rolls a 15, this means the price on the object is now 960-1040 instead of 1000gp.
At this point you then roll counter persuade rolls if both Players are agreeable. This repressents the actual bartering. I like to use a sliding scale on this so that it doesnt come down to the bard ruling the roost. Typically though, the price changes 1 level towards what your PC's appraise set teh items value as not exceeding the appraise set value.
So for example with the sheild, the seller rolls a 23 on the persuade and the buyer a 1, the seller gets 1040gp still. But if the seller rolls a 12 and the buyer a 10, the shield sells for 1010gp.
Again this isnt in any book and was just a custom rule made up but I've seen it work well and if its not DEMANDED but asked for and concentually entered then it makes for a fun twist to the PC to PC economy.
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Post by DM Justicar - Creator of FRC on Nov 3, 2005 21:31:33 GMT -5
I've gone through several fall outs over this and finally with the majority of players I would be bothered with and a few DMs puzzled out the following for bartering using checks... First off it can go both ways. The player with the items can set the price they think is an average price for such an item, lets say the item is a +1 shield and gold availibity for PCs makes it worth about 1000gp. The Players involved in the barter must agree ahead of time to do the bartering checks, if they say no rp as you might without causing hard feelings if you dont get what you want. but... First out the gate are counter appraise checks. Beforehand both players decide on the variance in price from what the seller considers average price per difference in appraise checks, and that this works both ways. For the example with the shield lets call it at 10gp per point of difference in checks. The appraise showing what the PCs would each think it is worth. Now the seller rolls a 19 on their appraise check, and the buy rolls a 15, this means the price on the object is now 960-1040 instead of 1000gp. At this point you then roll counter persuade rolls if both Players are agreeable. This repressents the actual bartering. I like to use a sliding scale on this so that it doesnt come down to the bard ruling the roost. Typically though, the price changes 1 level towards what your PC's appraise set teh items value as not exceeding the appraise set value. So for example with the sheild, the seller rolls a 23 on the persuade and the buyer a 1, the seller gets 1040gp still. But if the seller rolls a 12 and the buyer a 10, the shield sells for 1010gp. Again this isnt in any book and was just a custom rule made up but I've seen it work well and if its not DEMANDED but asked for and concentually entered then it makes for a fun twist to the PC to PC economy. Rules Ho alert! *just razzing the new guy*
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Post by Munroe on Nov 3, 2005 21:56:34 GMT -5
I have a very simple solution for this:
Your character has high appraise? Your character knows the PC merchant is selling cheaper than the NPC merchant?
Success! Pay the man.
In-character haggling beats dice rolls any day. You've got low appraise? Play it and don't haggle so much.
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Post by Talus on Nov 3, 2005 23:11:34 GMT -5
Yeah stop trying to haggle Kam His prices are good, honest. Best you'll find, never better ;D
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Post by Quadhund/Greenhouse on Nov 4, 2005 0:17:02 GMT -5
Yeah stop trying to haggle Kam His prices are good, honest. Best you'll find, never better ;D Well hroth would beat him, but thats only cause i have 4 levels on the poor guy ;D
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Post by moulinous on Nov 4, 2005 1:01:23 GMT -5
my god, how many rules for a simple plus one sheild? as for best prices, kam, everyone knows a certain dwarf has the drop on that my freind...also, rp me if you want to try to haggle, but do not expect me to roll vs my persuade to the fourth power on tuesdays with a appraise minus the barter to whatever avi said... *just razing yah new dude*hehe
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Post by DM Richard (Retired) on Nov 4, 2005 7:42:02 GMT -5
Easy solution. Roll the appraise before you name prices. Just like the npc merchants!
You've already determined what you will sell the item for if they win. All you need to do is determine the price you will sell it for if they lose. No need to offer the item to them for a bargin and have them try to drop it even lower. Offer it for a reasonable price and then only if they win give them that bargin price you would have started out with if they hadn't caused this situation. Those without appraise will likely never get that bargin price though.
Oh well their character needs to get someone to bargin for them or just pay up the same as dealing with an npc.
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Post by kenny26 on Nov 4, 2005 19:21:40 GMT -5
appraise is the act of appraisal (guessing the value of an item) and in dnd it is only meant to be used for antiques with no magical properties, such as gems. the DM keeps the price of the gems listed secretly, and then depending on the success or failure of the appraise roll, he'll tell the players one or the other. example: jargo picks up a gem, pondering how much it's worth. DM: knows the true value of the gem is 10.000 gp (lucky jargo ;D ). he also knows the appraise DC of this item is 25. he rolls a hidden appraise check for jargo, and fails by 3 points. how many percents of wrong-guessing each point is to represent is up to the DM. he sets it to 5% per point, so jargo is 15% off in guessing the price. the DM decides that jargo is wish-thinking so he guesses the price too high. 11.500 GP is what jargo believes it's worth, and it's what he'll try to sell it for to the nearest jewlery store. some DMs might also allow players to roll appraise checks to avoid getting scammed by a merchant, but never give them a discount on account of their appraise skill. he might give the players a discount because of the merchant failing his appraise check, pricing his items too low. so as you can see, the appraise skill has been under some intence treatment when bioware decided to integrate it into the game. suddenly it's a social skill much like persuade, only it's intelligence based... i consider it a tool for npc interaction only. i'd never agree to letting another char scam jargo just 'cause he can roll an appraise check 50 times better than my own....
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Post by Talus on Nov 4, 2005 19:30:16 GMT -5
Well the only time that Kam has opposed checked someone with Appraise is when they decided they would try that to get a better price. So I agreed ;D there was a crowd around, I don't think anyone has tried that since. unfortunatly didn't even get a sale out of that
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