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Post by StabbingNirvana on Aug 1, 2015 19:16:28 GMT -5
Say I've got true seeing on and someone is shifted in cat form, is my character seeing a humanoid on all fours doing things like grooming and scratching themselves?
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Post by Munroe on Aug 2, 2015 2:27:16 GMT -5
You see a humanoid, yes. Whether they're doing the same thing is not clearly defined. It's funny if they are, but a human doesn't have the same anatomy as some of the creatures magic allows it to become, so sometimes doing the same thing would be impossible. Here is a quote regarding True Seeing and WildShape from a related topic. I was told OOC via tell that True Seeing doesn't see through shifter form's even though such to my knowledge it should and from my understanding of Masters of the Wild, which is a supplemental 3.0 book which introduced some things used in 3.5. I'm curious if there has been a change in the opinion of DM's since this Q&A or if this is still the case and people have been spreading misinformation mistakenly as a Shifters abilities are a greater form of Wildshape. I did have a look for other posts in a similar vain, though this was the latest post I could find from my search. FM. should penetrate both the druid and shifter shapeshifting abilities, including all varieties of WildShape, to allow seeing the druid's natural form. (That is their standard humanoid form in the case of all druids and shifters on FRC.) True Seeing should penetrate all magical disguises and polymorphing effects on FRC, including druid and shifter WildShape, but I am aware of an epic unique item on FRC that says specifically in its description that True Seeing doesn't work to penetrate its effect. As it is written as a specific exception to the functioning of True Seeing, I guess it is one. I would advise you to direct misinformed parties to this thread for clarification. Obviously that direction to a thread for clarification is the one I'm citing, not this one. But it doesn't answer the question of what the person is doing. They're probably doing as close as their body allows to approximating what the polymorphed form is doing. That would make sense and be funny, but I don't know if it says that anywhere. Some creatures are visible in both their forms when viewed by True Seeing, because neither form is more or less "real" than the other. It is very late and I am very tired so I'm not going to give examples since it doesn't apply to any PCs on FRC. |
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Aug 2, 2015 7:30:55 GMT -5
Ok, so basically it's best to send a tell to the person and make sure they don't have that item. Then its fair game to say you saw a human on all fours if they're in cat form, or slithering along the road on their human bellies if they're a snake?
I could only imagine how hilarious it would have looked for Allyson when Slate was holding a shape-shifted cat and asking for her to pet it.
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Post by Fenix on Aug 2, 2015 10:13:52 GMT -5
Ok, so basically it's best to send a tell to the person and make sure they don't have that item. Then its fair game to say you saw a human on all fours if they're in cat form, or slithering along the road on their human bellies if they're a snake? I could only imagine how hilarious it would have looked for Allyson when Slate was holding a shape-shifted cat and asking for her to pet it. Like i said last night. Somewhere in the source it says you woukd simply see the pc as more or less an aura or faint afterimage over the creature, garbed however they were before shifting. So you might see a dog, but the shapeshifyer wouldn't really ve sitting there on all fours, youd simply see them standing as a ghostly image in place properly for their race. As well, before just saying "oh that is x" when you have true seeing, it is a good idea to send a tell and find out how the person is dressed. They could very well be disguised beneatg the shapeshift, and true seeing doesnt pierce mundane disguises. And yes, dm q and a i know. Just had to put this in there a lot because with or without true seeing, this is metagamed for more than just my pc. |
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Aug 2, 2015 15:08:24 GMT -5
Im less concerned with faces. More concerned with people slithering around and walking on all fours. It would be hilarious.
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Post by Munroe on Aug 2, 2015 15:09:31 GMT -5
Ok, so basically it's best to send a tell to the person and make sure they don't have that item. Then its fair game to say you saw a human on all fours if they're in cat form, or slithering along the road on their human bellies if they're a snake? I could only imagine how hilarious it would have looked for Allyson when Slate was holding a shape-shifted cat and asking for her to pet it. Like i said last night. Somewhere in the source it says you woukd simply see the pc as more or less an aura or faint afterimage over the creature, garbed however they were before shifting. So you might see a dog, but the shapeshifyer wouldn't really ve sitting there on all fours, youd simply see them standing as a ghostly image in place properly for their race. As well, before just saying "oh that is x" when you have true seeing, it is a good idea to send a tell and find out how the person is dressed. They could very well be disguised beneatg the shapeshift, and true seeing doesnt pierce mundane disguises. And yes, dm q and a i know. Just had to put this in there a lot because with or without true seeing, this is metagamed for more than just my pc. I haven't seen anything to indicate the humanoid form would be ghostly. As far as I have seen it, you would see them as though they were there. Creatures that have two or more natural forms, such as eladrin celestials, which have a humanoid form and a ball-of-light form, would appear as all their forms simultaneously. If you have a source that says otherwise, please PM me the reference. As this is DM Q&A, all player "answers" should go through a DM. |
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Post by Munroe on Aug 2, 2015 15:20:39 GMT -5
Ok, so basically it's best to send a tell to the person and make sure they don't have that item. Then its fair game to say you saw a human on all fours if they're in cat form, or slithering along the road on their human bellies if they're a snake? I could only imagine how hilarious it would have looked for Allyson when Slate was holding a shape-shifted cat and asking for her to pet it. I can save you time in asking. The epic appearance-changing item that overcomes True Seeing that I mentioned in the previous quote is an item possessed by Phelzaron, that only applies to specific forms it grants. You don't have to ask around, it's a unique item he acquired some time ago. It doesn't mean he can always overcome true seeing, but that certain forms can't be revealed as him. But that's enough spoilers. I'm sure he'd prefer to keep the details to himself, I only mention it so you don't need to ask around while under the effect of True Seeing. And yes, I get a chuckle out of what True Seeing reveals when people are shapeshifted and polymorphed too. |
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Post by StabbingNirvana on Aug 2, 2015 17:52:57 GMT -5
So since you're the DM, definitive answer is that shapeshifted people are seen doing similar things to what they're doing in their shifted form, as closely as possible to what the human body would allow?
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Post by Munroe on Aug 3, 2015 3:20:34 GMT -5
Definitive answer? True Seeing sees through illusions, as well as reveals the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things and creatures.
There's no hard-and-fast rule that says you can see the person doing the same thing while polymorphed. That makes sense, yes, which is likely why it isn't spelled out. It isn't spelled out though.
My personal opinion is that you can see the person doing the same thing as long as their body is physically capable of the same action, but there's no hard-and-fast rule on this, no definitive answer, and I'm not going to declare one on this issue. If two players can't agree what is seen in a True Seeing-vs-Wildshape or True Seeing-vs-Polymorph situation, get a DM.
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Post by maeglhachel on Oct 30, 2016 3:21:01 GMT -5
Definitive answer? True Seeing sees through illusions, as well as reveals the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things and creatures. There's no hard-and-fast rule that says you can see the person doing the same thing while polymorphed. That makes sense, yes, which is likely why it isn't spelled out. It isn't spelled out though. My personal opinion is that you can see the person doing the same thing as long as their body is physically capable of the same action, but there's no hard-and-fast rule on this, no definitive answer, and I'm not going to declare one on this issue. If two players can't agree what is seen in a True Seeing-vs-Wildshape or True Seeing-vs-Polymorph situation, get a DM. Does it make sense to sticky this? (And sorry for thread necromancy) |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2016 3:26:26 GMT -5
Only thing I hope regarding using True seeing spell is that people wouldnt use it without a good reason.
Im little concerned about that if someone has shapechanged themselves to harmless critter after being dangerous (basicly hiding)
that arcane casters just assume "okay that fella has turned into something else I cast trueseeing". Its all good and well, if theres
a good ic reason for it. But I dread the idea where people go around walking with trueseeing on "just in case".
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Post by Aoi on Nov 1, 2016 12:30:25 GMT -5
I think we don't need to worry. If i remember right, i saw someone casting True seeing already when the attack with the fire elemantal started. It's just an example, but i think such would be a good rp-reason in case the summoner is really hiding nearby. If the spell still works when the transformed character shows up, it's only logical that the caster of the True seeing can still recognize him. Otherwise i would call it ooc abuse, but like said, i don't think so. We have also good Good-Guy-Players in my eyes, who have played here for long and i would trust in this to use such spells in a reasonable way.  |
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Post by smacrasmacrasmacra on Nov 1, 2016 17:54:23 GMT -5
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Post by blink on Nov 1, 2016 20:54:58 GMT -5
It has always been to my understanding that even while under the effects of true seeing that "druids" who "wild-shape" transform into a creature "become" that creature, and are therefore not an illusion. True seeing wouldn't have any bearing on knowing that the creature is a humanoid in disguise or not. That is always how I understood it, is this about right, DMs?
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Post by Aoi on Nov 2, 2016 1:03:05 GMT -5
As far as i understood the caster can really see all invisible creatures, through polymorphs or illusions. I find this for example a good source . But i am no DM and also open to see how the DMs see it. |
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Post by iangallowglas on Nov 2, 2016 6:47:07 GMT -5
Hello Everyone You do realize that this is a DM Q&A Thread, and as such, people should not post in this thread unless they were the original poster, or a DM? You also do realize that the DM answered the question earlier in the thread? Please make a new thread to discuss this topic if you wish, otherwise you clutter the thread. Sincerely, PA Ian (also not supposed to post in the thread, but come on people.....sometimes the teacher has to come out) |
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Post by Munroe on Nov 2, 2016 18:24:37 GMT -5
Unless you have a related question to the topic, DO NOT REPLY TO DM Q&A THREADS UNLESS YOU ARE A DM. DO NOT ANSWER IN DM Q&A THREADS UNLESS YOU ARE A DM. It has always been to my understanding that even while under the effects of true seeing that "druids" who "wild-shape" transform into a creature "become" that creature, and are therefore not an illusion. True seeing wouldn't have any bearing on knowing that the creature is a humanoid in disguise or not. That is always how I understood it, is this about right, DMs?
You are incorrect and the opposite is true. True Seeing penetrates druid and shifter wildshape abilities to reveal the creature's humanoid form, as already answered in the quoted text up-thread, quoted again here. I was told OOC via tell that True Seeing doesn't see through shifter form's even though such to my knowledge it should and from my understanding of Masters of the Wild, which is a supplemental 3.0 book which introduced some things used in 3.5. I'm curious if there has been a change in the opinion of DM's since this Q&A or if this is still the case and people have been spreading misinformation mistakenly as a Shifters abilities are a greater form of Wildshape. I did have a look for other posts in a similar vain, though this was the latest post I could find from my search. FM.
True Seeing should penetrate both the druid and shifter shapeshifting abilities, including all varieties of WildShape, to allow seeing the druid's natural form. (That is their standard humanoid form in the case of all druids and shifters on FRC.) True Seeing should penetrate all magical disguises and polymorphing effects on FRC, including druid and shifter WildShape, but I am aware of an epic unique item on FRC that says specifically in its description that True Seeing doesn't work to penetrate its effect. As it is written as a specific exception to the functioning of True Seeing, I guess it is one. I would advise you to direct misinformed parties to this thread for clarification. As to the epic unique item I mentioned, that was already explained in a follow-up post in this thread as well, and does not relate to druids or shifters. |
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