Shira
Proven Member
Posts: 101
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Post by Shira on Feb 19, 2014 1:15:30 GMT -5
I heard about the rule that a merchant can sell goods at a price no lower than half they would pay for it at the lowest source (from an NPC merchant), but I'm not clear on whether that applies to said PC merchant -buying- goods (i.e. from adventurers). Can someone clarify this for me?
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Post by Munroe on Feb 19, 2014 11:40:55 GMT -5
It does apply for any PC-to-PC transactions, whether with a merchant license or not. Please see the following DM Q&A threads: DM Q&A: Merchant Laws & PricesDM Q&A: merchant pricing: how low is too lowSome relevant quotes from those threads: I've just been informed that these pricing restrictions apply to merchant PCs buying "loot" from other PC that are just trying to get more money than they can selling them to NPCs... so does this rule work in this manner as well? Aka: Controling how much a merchant PC has to pay to secure goods for resale? If so.. can we increase the NPC purchase prices to from 15% to 50% as well? Yes, the pricing here includes situations of "merchant PCs" buying loot from other players as well. Merchant PCs for the sake of this rule are just PCs and this rule applies for PCs selling things to other PCs regardless of merchant status. The prices NPCs pay for items are not going to change in the foreseeable future. The economy is not designed so Billy can buy Magic Belt from Tom then turn around and sell it to NPC Guy for more gold than Billy paid to Tom. If Billy buys the belt from Tom, he can turn around and sell it to Jane for more than he paid Tom. In this way the item stays among PCs and does not just pass through a middle man to an NPC for the middle man's profit. We were asked about this recently by a player, and I thought I'd bump the thread (since I finally found it!). PC merchants keep in mind to sell items at no less than 50% of what it would cost from an NPC merchant, or, if the item cannot be found in stores, for 2.5X over the price offered by an NPC merchant. Yes, there is really a formula out there to distinguish merchants from twinkers. The order of precedence is as playaaa interprets it. My understanding of what I have read in this thread is as follows:
If a PC with a Greatgaunt merchant's license wants to sell something to another PC in Greatgaunt jurisdiction, the item must be sold for:
- a minimum of 50% of what the item would cost if a PC was to buy it from a NPC shopkeeper / merchant. (I will hereafter refer to this formula as the "50% formula").
And, that if a NPC shop-keeper / merchant who sells the item is not found by the PC Merchant, only THEN can the PC Merchant offer to instead set a selling price (to another PC) of a minimum of 2.5 times the value at which a NPC shop-keeper / merchant would offer to buy the item. (I will refer to this formula hereafter as the "2.5x formula").
Is that correct? |
That is correct. It doesn't apply to crafted items but to found items and purchased items that are being resold. Crafted items have a base crafting cost so things shouldn't be sold for less than it. Ideally there should be some mark-up as well, but minimum mark-up isn't specified explicitly. (In some cases, such as scrolls, crafting an item costs more than it costs to buy it so there's no good uniform formula for crafted items.) In a few cases of crafting, we ask that players not resell them at all, such as with that one paladin spell that is a weapon enchantment. Holy Sword, I think. Paladins can scribe it very very cheap for some reason and it has a high caster level/long duration and a lot of benefits to the user. If they sell it at a competitive price with the market, they make a fortune. If they sell it based on how much it costs them, they put a very powerful weapon into circulation for very little gold. **Original post said "Holy Sword," but I meant "Bless Weapon." We will deal OOC'ly in situations of twinking, muling, or other munchkin-like activity in the manner listed in your rules. Please do not allow your illicit trade to cross over into these categories of activity. To clarify this point, items should not be sold for less than 50% of prices found with NPC merchants who carry the item. Most items that you're likely to come across can be found in a store in the module. Setting up your prices may involve traveling around and looking through shops to find these in-store prices. (Think of it as market research for competitive pricing.) If an item cannot be found in a store, it can be priced at 2.5x (250%) what the item could be sold to an NPC merchant for. This only applies for items that can't be found in a store, it is not an excuse not to check stores nor a work-around to undercut the 50% price-point. This is an OOC concern to prevent people from being able to accquire goods too cheaply. As such, failure to follow these price guidelines is addressed in an OOC manner. Note that this does not specify how much EXTRA you can charge for an item above and beyond these rates, only the minimum pricing. (Though if your price seems like an excuse for twinking by having a wealthy friend by crap at very high prices, that will still be addressed.) ================================================ That having been said, the Merchant License is an in-character construct and ultimately has no significance concerning item pricing. People selling without a license should still follow the minimum pricing formulas as these are an OOC concern. The in-character punishment for operating without a license involves confiscation of goods and is detailed on the list of laws and punishments in Greatgaunt. As traps are a craftable item, they are governed more by the non-standard pricing of crafted items. This is from the other thread I linked: It doesn't apply to crafted items but to found items and purchased items that are being resold. Crafted items have a base crafting cost so things shouldn't be sold for less than it. Ideally there should be some mark-up as well, but minimum mark-up isn't specified explicitly. (In some cases, such as scrolls, crafting an item costs more than it costs to buy it so there's no good uniform formula for crafted items.)
In a few cases of crafting, we ask that players not resell them at all, such as with that one paladin spell that is a weapon enchantment. Holy Sword, I think. Paladins can scribe it very very cheap for some reason and it has a high caster level/long duration and a lot of benefits to the user. If they sell it at a competitive price with the market, they make a fortune. If they sell it based on how much it costs them, they put a very powerful weapon into circulation for very little gold. |
In the case of traps, they generally can't be resold to NPC merchants. There may be a few merchants in the module who will take them, but not for any "real" profit. They're a craftable item with no crafting cost (unless you count the Trapmaking kit, which costs a few thousand gp), so the value of the trap really comes down to the value of what it is made of. Some traps are more valuable than others for their raw materials, but in the end they are generally more valuable as traps, which don't have much value. Does that make sense? In other words, traps are basically a player-to-player market, and, in fact, are often given away by people who can't use them to other people who can. (Considering that each trap weighs 0.5 lbs and 1-to-5 stacked traps takes 4 squares of inventory, they can be self-limiting.) If you sell one obsolete piece of equipment in an IC manner without hawking it on the corner of the Regal Griffon you are not engaged in merchantile activity and don't need a license. If you sell several suits and/or advertise openly that you are selling, you are engaged in merchantile activity and need a license. |
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Post by Munroe on Jun 21, 2014 14:19:27 GMT -5
Bumping the merchant pricing threads. Note that the Merchant License has been updated with set minimum prices for many common item types.
The pricing minimums (50% of shop or the license-listed minimum) still apply whether the seller is licensed as a merchant or not. That includes when a licensed merchant PC is buying items from an unlicensed (non-merchant) PC.
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Post by Trollfiend on Jul 7, 2014 9:12:30 GMT -5
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Post by Munroe on Jul 7, 2014 23:41:54 GMT -5
This thread doesn't say anything about bless weapon wands, so why bring it up? Nevermind, don't answer here. This thread isn't about Bless Weapon Wands, after all. |
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Post by appleseedy on Jul 9, 2014 2:43:48 GMT -5
I realise this is a dm q&A thread but I wanted to tack my own question (as its relevant) onto the end.
What is FRC's official stance vis a vis PC's who represent the black market and sell at whatever price they fancy?
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Post by Munroe on Jul 9, 2014 18:01:38 GMT -5
I realise this is a dm q&A thread but I wanted to tack my own question (as its relevant) onto the end. What is FRC's official stance vis a vis PC's who represent the black market and sell at whatever price they fancy? The RULE is that it must be sold at no less than 50% of the item's shop cost or the minimum allowed pricing on the merchant license (minimum pricing on the merchant license trumps 50% rule). This applies to everyone. A person selling at less than that is breaking the server rules. The 50% minimum is an out-of-character limitation, not an in-character limitation. Breaking this rule can result in disciplinary action upto and including bans. |
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Post by marredwolf on Jul 16, 2014 15:37:45 GMT -5
to DMs or advocates: I would greatly like to see a short list of common items priced for sale. scrolls, potions, minor magical items etc. this would provide a standard to be followed. I could then compare one item to another and find out roughly how much it should cost. traveling around to research prices is a good rp tool i think, but a general grasp of what the value is for common and uncommon scrolls and such should be available. like: you know how much a six pack of beer would cost, roughly, whether cheap or premium. i mean like what would a level 3 scroll should sell for and a level 2? now i can guess a level 4. has this been posted or is it even relevant...
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Post by Lady Frost on Jul 16, 2014 17:30:52 GMT -5
to DMs or advocates: I would greatly like to see a short list of common items priced for sale. scrolls, potions, minor magical items etc. this would provide a standard to be followed. I could then compare one item to another and find out roughly how much it should cost. traveling around to research prices is a good rp tool i think, but a general grasp of what the value is for common and uncommon scrolls and such should be available. like: you know how much a six pack of beer would cost, roughly, whether cheap or premium. i mean like what would a level 3 scroll should sell for and a level 2? now i can guess a level 4. has this been posted or is it even relevant... The merchant licenses have prices listed on them. Maybe not scrolls though. |
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Post by appleseedy on Jul 18, 2014 11:59:54 GMT -5
thanks for all the info here and once again i know this a DM question thread, my last question pertaining to merchants;
the prices that PC's may sell good are listed on the licence, what prices should PC merchants set for buying goods from other PC's in order to sell?
To give the question context, I am assuming that the price rules are to ensure that there is no Twinking/muling so I am also assuming that works in reverse ie. you wouldn't sell too cheap to a PC merchant so that your not breaking these rules either.
Sorry if i'm being pernickity
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Post by Munroe on Jul 18, 2014 15:47:44 GMT -5
thanks for all the info here and once again i know this a DM question thread, my last question pertaining to merchants; the prices that PC's may sell good are listed on the licence, what prices should PC merchants set for buying goods from other PC's in order to sell? To give the question context, I am assuming that the price rules are to ensure that there is no Twinking/muling so I am also assuming that works in reverse ie. you wouldn't sell too cheap to a PC merchant so that your not breaking these rules either. Sorry if i'm being pernickity This has actually been stated several times, the most recent only four posts up this very thread in a response to a question you asked. The same pricing rules apply whether you have a merchant license or not. The licenses are an in-character construction, but the minimum prices apply with or without a license, whether selling to a PC merchant or not, and whether you are a PC merchant or not. The price minimum is still the same. I realise this is a dm q&A thread but I wanted to tack my own question (as its relevant) onto the end. What is FRC's official stance vis a vis PC's who represent the black market and sell at whatever price they fancy? The RULE is that it must be sold at no less than 50% of the item's shop cost or the minimum allowed pricing on the merchant license (minimum pricing on the merchant license trumps 50% rule). This applies to everyone. A person selling at less than that is breaking the server rules. The 50% minimum is an out-of-character limitation, not an in-character limitation. Breaking this rule can result in disciplinary action upto and including bans. |
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Post by appleseedy on Jul 19, 2014 5:26:42 GMT -5
thank you
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Post by Pithirendar on Jul 24, 2017 18:24:19 GMT -5
bumping - merchants should be aware of these rules.
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