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Post by Lady Frost on Feb 27, 2013 16:55:03 GMT -5
Here, I'll even start it for you.
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Manshin
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Post by Manshin on Feb 27, 2013 17:00:53 GMT -5
Everyone knows that a high int in combination with an evil alignment gives you a massive bulbous head.
Thanks for moving this from the "how I see you" thread. When I hear "we can make fireballs so that means realism has no place" I groan. Fantasy must have its own foundation of canon physical laws in order to create a believable illusion which can help you suspend disbelief and immerse. If it lacks this, it's not good fantasy.
Magic in Faerun has a canon explanation and its own laws. I'm not sure in what way that the weave which allows bat *chickenwing* and magical training to to turn into fireballs somehow makes small petite super models able to lift armored men over their heads. I don't see any reason that would explain how large muscles are not required to lift heavy objects without magical assistance.
Ladies who can press 250+ lbs over their heads do not typically fit the average archetype for beauty. Just saying.
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Post by Razgriz on Feb 27, 2013 17:26:43 GMT -5
This was mentioned in a thread I started some time ago. For me stats are what they are. I believe that anyone with str 26 is as strong as a hill giant who has the same strength and should be able to lob boulders about. I do not believe that stats should be viewed as what you bought with your points and then you play as you want. I enjoy RPing low stats too but high stats can go anywhere. A stat at 8, 10, 12 15, 18, 25 and 35 put you in different worlds of RP. For STR you are talking about dweeb, normal, fit, passed boot camp easy, all ready for London, able to walk home with your motor cycle on your shoulder, able to rip a safe apart like a packet of peanuts. for Dex it goes clotz, normal, hold your own on the dance floor, five ball juggler, hope you don't have to fly to London with that STR guy, Move through a Lazar field like that guy in Oceans 11, make your way across a trapped room by crawling across the ceiling without taking your hands out of your pockets. Con nose bleed, normal, enjoy a mountain run, 3 hour marathon, Looking forward to the airline food on your way to London, that guy that catches cannon balls in his chest for fun, Chuck Norris. Int, You use the word Awesome more than full stops, normal, Likes a good crossword, Mate in 7, 6, 8, 11 and 3, People knock at your door cos you got a nobel, nobody understands a word you say in the same week you say it but you always get there in 20% of the time with an apple, you like to read the paper in your pajamas while nations work for you without knowing that you even exist, Wisdom, 'look what I almost stepped in', normal, turns your tax in on time, people come to you for advice, was the one that put the Who put the bomp. In the bomp bah bomp bah bomp, reached enlightenment, 'look what I almost stepped in'. Chr, 'look what I almost stepped in', normal, hold your own on the dance floor, 'how YOU doin' 'I had a dream' 'these are not the droids you are looking for' My wife! (Still have never met anyone that was not crazy about her in 2 minutes. I don't think I would like that person) For me STR is a doddle. Dex is a chance to describe grace. Con is why people play dwarves. Chr CAN be viewed in many ways and many go with the looks. It is Int and Wisdom that are hard. For me Wisdom is not something you can RP past your own wisdom. Int can be viewed as the speed of your skills in problem solving. A smart person will arrive there in time but wisdom is your talent in seeing what others only look at. I have played high Int in the 30's and to make it work I took a page from Oscar Wilde. I used to plan my chat RP for about 3 days ahead. I would have answers and side answers and reply answers. I did not always win but I put up one hell of a fight. Wisdom for me can not be RPed why out of normal stats. Rite. I think I agree with this interpretation of stats.
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Post by arisnorman1 on Feb 27, 2013 17:30:35 GMT -5
not to drail this threat i love all the pics . But i agree i think more along the lines a 18 str your looking pritty damn ripped as a girl not like body builder stat. but pritty muscled and toned. does it have to be huge muscles like the hulk neh that for the rdd women and men lol. but in all reality rp a bit mabe that she had toned muscles. what could it hurt? www.abdspencer.com/images/index/spencer-mass-fitness-kickboxing.png
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Post by Lady Frost on Feb 27, 2013 17:58:45 GMT -5
Everyone knows that a high int in combination with an evil alignment gives you a massive bulbous head. Thanks for moving this from the "how I see you" thread. When I hear "we can make fireballs so that means realism has no place" I groan. Fantasy must have its own foundation of canon physical laws in order to create a believable illusion which can help you suspend disbelief and immerse. If it lacks this, it's not good fantasy. Magic in Faerun has a canon explanation and its own laws. I'm not sure in what way that the weave which allows bat *chickenwing* and magical training to to turn into fireballs somehow makes small petite super models able to lift armored men over their heads. I don't see any reason that would explain how large muscles are not required to lift heavy objects without magical assistance. Ladies who can press 250+ lbs over their heads do not typically fit the average archetype for beauty. Just saying. I'm in agreement. On average, (because there are small exceptions to everything) even in fantasy, the stronger you are naturally, the larger your muscles would be. Magical enhancement is different. Something that is more strange to me than massively high strength scores is balance. Sure you may be able to lift the king and his horse above your head (which happened once in Cormyr) but how do you keep your balance when you only weight 200 lbs and are holding 1000 up & out in front of you? However! In a different aspect... How does magically enhanced charisma affect your looks? Do you suddenly look better? Do people simply perceive you are better looking? (yes, I understand the relationship between charisma and looks and that it doesn't have to change anything but it -can- and I'm curious how.)
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Post by Thrym on Feb 27, 2013 18:49:48 GMT -5
For my part, I think there's a few things to consider before declaring 'All Chars with 20 str look like HULK!!!' 1. A large numbers of PCs aren't even human. How a 20 Str human looks tells us literally nothing about how a 20 str elf looks. Heh, just look at a chimp. No, seriously - it's smaller than you, and way, way stronger than you will ever be, no matter how much you work out. Given that our nearest relatives have such a ridiculous difference in strength compared to us, I think we can cut non-human PCs some slack here. Elves are always described as frail looking, nimble guys that hop around on trees but don't take a strength penalty. Halflings and Gnomes? Those guys (look at how tiny they are!) already have super-strength. They have a nearly meaningless 2 str less than the average human. If you're an unfit nerd, chances are they don't actually have less str than you, despite not even reaching your waist. The muscles of non-human PCs may simply be pound for pound better than those of humans, so there's little point in demanding they buff up like human weightlifters. 2. Characters high level enough to sport 20 base str are totally unrealistic in general. Now some people like roleplaying HPs as luck or plain endurance unless you get below 0 or something, but that really stops working once you get to a certain point. I'd personally put that point at about the time when the 20d6 damage from say, jumping of a mountain or wading through a "small" river of lava becomes something you will on average survive, and a commoner pointing a crossbow at your face is something that causes you to burst into laughter. By the time you (assuming human) spot 20 base str, you're at least level 8, more likely level 12 or 16. Yeah. Considering you're probably some melee based guy and are sporting 10+ HP per level, your body is already giving realism the finger by refusing to take serious damage from crap that should friggin kill you beyond a shadow of a doubt, who cares if you're looking like a fit person or the world champion in dead lifting? It's not like either appearance is realistic for you, Mister Facetanks Volcanoes. PC warriors aren't realistic. They have to keep up with guys who can stop time and turn into dragons and crap. If you want realistic-human PCs, then a server with a level cap of 40 and plenty of level 20s is just plain the wrong place to look for em. ... Personally (as in, this is not supported by the rules or anything at all), I'd also kinda consider class. I think a monk who's reinforcing his body with ki, a paladin who is flat-out blessed by the gods with martial skill or even a fighter-sorcerer RPing his whatever-blood letting him shoot lightning bolts also manifests in him being stronger than he looks should have some leeway as to how much of even their base strength is actually muscle-based and how much is supernatural mojo. Lastly, I also think one might want to consider the PCs charisma score. If you want to RP your 18 str / 14 character as being a hot looking, athletic chick, I personally think that's more believable then doing it for your 18 str / 8 cha character. TL,DR: 20 Str / 14 Cha Epic Elf Bard Chick = Works for me if Miss Super-humanly-tough Not-even-a-human-to-begin-with whose body is full of SCIENCE! MAGIC! is traditionally purdy and simply looking athletic. 18 Str / 8 Cha Human Fighter 1 Chick = Yeah, you ... might want to consider not RPing this one as drop dead gorgeous.
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Post by iangallowglas on Feb 27, 2013 19:27:24 GMT -5
I think most folks that don't play one of the classes where CHA is not a dump-stat, tend to over play their CHA score. I think this mainly occurs in the male characters as I have found that the female characters tend to have higher CHA scores even for the classes that don't have CHA as an important Stat. I will say that my RDD Seamus had unmodified stats of 26 STR, 16 CON and 18 CHA, so I always felt he looked appropriate in the Sunite pool with all the beautiful ladies around.
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Post by Syd's Blue Sky on Feb 27, 2013 19:30:37 GMT -5
As far as the whole mass=STR, STR=mass thing goes, it's simply not true in real life.
Example. I have a childhood friend who is a semi-professional body builder. He's not very strong. In fact, I lift more than him in at least half of your normal gym exercises, and I'm sporting a good 40 pounds of muscle less than he is. People who have high mass use very specific gym routines and diets to achieve this. Powerlifters use different methods. It comes down to how muscles work, and that's fairly sciency stuff with which I'll not bog down the thread. (because it's not already bogged down, right?)
It's true that mass is often an indicator of str, and that str is often visible as mass, but the two don't share a decidedly linear relationship.
And again, pointing to Thrym's post, that's assuming you're not a bonobo (our closest genetic relative... Fact of The Day - they're very fond of sex) or an orc or something.
At the end of the day it's a joke, people. RP whatever you want within reason. Srsly guyz.... hate to break it to you, but FRC isn't the real world.
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Post by Syd's Blue Sky on Feb 27, 2013 19:33:48 GMT -5
I will say that my RDD Seamus had unmodified stats of 26 STR, 16 CON and 18 CHA, so I always felt he looked appropriate in the Sunite pool with all the beautiful ladies around. The inclusion of the Con makes this situation sound even more interesting. Thank you for sharing.
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Post by Sadistic Hobo on Feb 27, 2013 20:10:48 GMT -5
I agree with Thrym that it's significant to remember class here. A fighter who started with high base strength and naturally enhanced it might be pushing the boundaries of believability by emoting a delicate flower, especially at 10 or 8 charisma, but it's also important to note non-natural strength. Don't be too hasty to impose an image on another character, especially when you know them to be a caster of some sort whose primary attribute is more likely a mental one. It's only the natural strength that would physically manifest, and even then the mass point that Syds brought up holds true.
A high level meleer, strength based or not, could be sitting on anywhere from 6-9 permanent magical strength before we even consider spell buffs, so it shouldn't be assumed that they are a hulking roidmonster just because they rock full plate and weapons. My own character, for instance, is a high level caster meleer who has never gotten a natural strength increase, and would actually not be able to naturally carry her own equipment. Magically, she can bunch it all up and toss it like a football while smashing giants with a hammer. Dead magic zone? Forget about it. This is probably the case with a lot of high level non-fighter melee types.
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Manshin
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Post by Manshin on Feb 27, 2013 21:27:20 GMT -5
Great point about non humans. I should point out though that adult chimps are huge, and they "look" like they can tear a tractor tire in half. Still that view does go a long way to explaining hin.... Because when I imagine my halfling sized 3 year old daughter fighting adults... Well.... Ya.
18 str means you can lift 300lbs over your head. You don't do this without being huge. Lean muscles probably come from a mix of dex & str. If you have high str and low dex, you'd be puffy and bulging. Throw in a high con & you might be husky like the winner of an iron man contest.
If you are a female with an 18+ natural str, you may as well loose the bra, because no one is fooled anymore... Those are pecks, not boobs. If you also have a high charisma, then you have an amazing personality and people find you to be larger than life and amazing.
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Post by breadandcircuses on Feb 27, 2013 21:33:02 GMT -5
I have a char who has 14 14 14 on hsi physical stats and 14 charisma. Does that make him a perfectly porportioned god ?
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Manshin
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Post by Manshin on Feb 27, 2013 21:45:12 GMT -5
Great scores for a handsome and athletic person. Bit light shouldered for a man, bit stocky for a woman, but very much within normal.
My guess is that the kick boxer lady above could easily have 15 - 16 str, and a high dex and con.
If you really want to know what 18+ str looks like in a lady, go google image world record power lifter, female. Feast your eyes and try to guess the charisma!
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Feb 27, 2013 21:55:55 GMT -5
Great scores for a handsome and athletic person. Bit light shouldered for a man, bit stocky for a woman, but very much within normal. My guess is that the kick boxer lady above could easily have 15 - 16 str, and a high dex and con. If you really want to know what 18+ str looks like in a lady, go google image world record power lifter, female. Feast your eyes and try to guess the charisma! I'm going to go ahead and call BS on assigning appearance uniformly based on stats. Some people are naturally stocky. Others are long and lean. I'll use my dad, for example- you might say he has a high strength score, but he's approaching 6'8". He's very strong, even for his size, and he's not into the appearance of a bodybuilder. Someone closer to the average- say 6'4" may still be exceptionally strong given their appearance. It's all relative, and trying to force characters to conform to that is rude at best. Let players choose how they look within sense. Edit: The average height of men is 6'0" and women is about 5'6", for the record. Body types vary across all spectrums.
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Manshin
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Post by Manshin on Feb 27, 2013 22:12:14 GMT -5
Go find me someone who can lift 300 lbs over their head but who is skinny/weak looking/beautiful fashion model. Sure body types differ, but all inordinately strong people have inordinately strong muscles; be they lean and hard or puffy and big. Muscles are what make you strong. I would also point out that massively strong muscles increases testosterone in people. This seems to help female bodybuilder's with those good looks.
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Post by Pedantry INC on Feb 27, 2013 22:17:58 GMT -5
Personally I think people should rp their appearances how they see fit, but I like to remind people that:
Charisma is not your appearance in so much as it is your personal magnitism. While Charisma can affect your appearance, it means a lot more. Though ultimately it's up to the player to decide if their charisma is in their bearing or their beauty of course.
Personally I have a character with 8 charisma that looks alright, even cute in the right light, but has the social abilities of a soggy paper towel and no ability to interact with other people on a 'personal' level. I have seen several others with this same general attitude towards it. I think Torgar -might- be an example of this, though I don't know for sure. Hezekiel is, most certainly, not that his appearance actually matters because he wears a mask. (to clarify, I don't mean to say that torgar and hezekiel have paper towel social skills, just that they represent low charisma with social gruffness)
Physical stats, generally speaking I pay attention to my base stat, and consider magical stat increases.. well.. magical. Evalynn has a base str under 15, but a modded strength of over 20 due to her gear, and I won't ever rp her as a huge hulk, just a well fit woman that's toned from a life that included a fair bit of physical labor, and martial training.
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Post by Fluffy the Mad on Feb 27, 2013 22:24:11 GMT -5
Go find me someone who can lift 300 lbs over their head but who is skinny/weak looking/beautiful fashion model. Sure body types differ, but all inordinately strong people have inordinately strong muscles; be they lean and hard or puffy and big. Muscles are what make you strong. I would also point out that massively strong muscles increases testosterone in people. This seems to help female bodybuilder's with those good looks. I didn't say they would look skinny or anything. I'm saying that you shouldn't be dictating to others what their characters should or should not look like; see the definition of 'god-modding' in the rules. If you have an issue with any particular character, bring it up with their player or stop playing with them. (I'm trying to mean that politely)
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Post by The Tallest Dwarf on Feb 27, 2013 22:37:48 GMT -5
(Edited, thank you for clarifying.)
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Manshin
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Post by Manshin on Feb 27, 2013 23:29:51 GMT -5
It's not like I can force anyone to RP their 20 str bruiser as a beefcake instead of delicate flower. I guess a person could even imagine their 8 str wimp to look like Conan with bouncing pecks and 30' pythons if they really want.
I'm perfectly happy constructing my own funny visual images. Really, I brought this up more because many probably didn't really understand how str correlated to max press. Some people, like me, like to base how we picture our PCs on reality in the cases where it's possible.
Hmmm. I'm getting the impression this is a sensitive topic for some people. Think ill drop it like its hot.
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Post by arisnorman1 on Feb 28, 2013 0:25:09 GMT -5
idk i don't think any should be forced. but when i see a RDD or other people who stats arnt hindered and a nat 20 or 18. i make comments its only the truth. sorry to say it all. does this mean they all look like the hulk no but they are muscled like the pic i posted with that girl to me that is a 18 20 str for a girl. atleast put the effert in for rp since this is a RP server after all. and type well toned muscles or slightly toned muscles. not saying have a 40 python or nothing. take the time to rp stats a little.
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Post by breadandcircuses on Feb 28, 2013 1:17:38 GMT -5
Great scores for a handsome and athletic person. Bit light shouldered for a man, bit stocky for a woman, but very much within normal. My guess is that the kick boxer lady above could easily have 15 - 16 str, and a high dex and con. If you really want to know what 18+ str looks like in a lady, go google image world record power lifter, female. Feast your eyes and try to guess the charisma! Uh.. the average is 10-11. That is to say, a 'normal human' would have stats within 10-11 range; anything about an 11 would be above average, anything below 10 would be below average. A 14 is a +2, meaning you are two steps above average, at least. From teh DnD 3.5 handbook: All human stats 'average' is at 10. Under every stat it has a list of races averages and what those averages are (ex: toad str = 1 average) Meaning your average human is at 10 every stat. If you look in the manuals none of the NPC classes (not 'monster classes' like bandits) are stated and it doesn't mention any modifiers for them, so I guess your supposed to assume they all sit at their exact racial average unless you choose to give them stats. I think I read somewhere that it goes. 8 subnormal 10 average 12 above average 14 exceptional 16 amazing 18 unbelievable 20+ impossible or 'divine like' or something like that Or something along those lines. And wouldn't it shift slightly by race? For example, if the average is 10 for a human (strength lets say), then a halfling, with the -2 str, would be considered 'average' at 8 strength. So a 10 str halfling would actually be 'above average', etc. That is to say, a 8 str halfling would look like an average halfling, where as a 10 strength halfling would be slightly buff for their race and so on. Don't take this seriously to much I'm just shooting the breeze here out of boredom.
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Manshin
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Post by Manshin on Feb 28, 2013 2:33:51 GMT -5
Well I didn't say average. I said "handsome & athletic." Average people are neither handsome or athletic. They are plain.
As for that kick boxer... If she had an 18 str, she be able to lift a 300 lbs man over her head. No freaking way. As tone as she is, no way she's getting over 200 up in my opinion.
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Post by breadandcircuses on Feb 28, 2013 3:12:30 GMT -5
Oh, interesting enough, in the Cormyr sourcebook, all purple dragons msut have physical stats at a minimum of 12 up. So con/dex/str.
Sorry jsut thought that was an interesting fact.
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Blazingshadowz
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Post by Blazingshadowz on Feb 28, 2013 6:27:05 GMT -5
I do agree to a point about this whole ordeal. Although it is silly to assume everything is supposed to be realistic in a world where magic can be cast, and goblins, demons and angels exist, it is also important to consider your stats when figuring out your character. And I think most of this is aimed at people who decided to take below 10 charisma points. So here's what I think.
If you decided to take lower than 10 charisma points, that's fine, but there's a rule on the server to RP your stats accordingly. So while your character can still be attractive (simply not to hollywood standards) there needs to be some sort of change made for the choice you made on lowering your charisma, one I particularily think of is being socially awkward, shy, having low self esteem, or general, social oriented problems, scary laugh, plain weird, the list goes on! Physical appearance is one of many things that Charisma governs, just remember that it generally governs the social aspect of your character and how likable they are. (Although on that note, it is obviously still just as easy to hate someone with high charisma, they just might have more natural skill with saying the right words.)
Just don't choose to have 8 or 9 charisma, then have 20+ strength on a skinny super model of a girl.... it just doesn't make sense, and it's plainly going against rules to RP your stats at all times.
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Post by Razgriz on Feb 28, 2013 8:46:39 GMT -5
Well half orcs with 20+ str and 16+ con sure look like the hulk, they even are green.
As for charisma I say it depends. Some characters have it in the 20s and still they are hated by most of the server because who they are and what they do.
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Post by quelunia on Feb 28, 2013 9:53:29 GMT -5
As for the 8 charisma characters, I play one.. he is a arse to most people. And, I dont play him as much of a team player. I do reflect the charisma I choose.
Strength... ok, I am 5' 11" I weigh 160 lbs... I can lift 200 pounds over my head, sometimes more depending on how the weight is distributed. I have never had trouble gettign a date, when I was dating...married now. I rarely get sick, so I must have uber con,str, and charisma... Right? Nah... I can lift weight over my own and I am not a massive muscular build. I am toned yes. But, being able to lift large weeight also has a mind set to be able to do it as well. If you envision yourself being able to the muscles are fooled into going above and beyound what a normal person can do. So, maybe intellegence and wisdom can also be used as opposed to con and charisma. When I went in the army I weighed 130 and could hardly do 20 push ups, in 4 months I could do 80 push ups and was 160. In a year, I was doing 120 or more push ups not gaining weight while doing it. Now, 19 years later I can do the same easily and still weigh the same. Some things are in the mind. If you think it looks to heavy, you arent going to try, but if you look at it and think well if I grab it like this I can lift it... Well there ya go. You will feel muscle fatigue if you will yourself through it.. sure in time your muscles will wear out, but you can push yourself ahead harder and to do more tahn most.. If you put your mind to it.
In closing, if you want to play a super model type thats able to bench 400 pounds... Well... ya you will be toned, and a bit more muscular... But being a Hulk... nah not really.
Charisma of 8 you could still be a hotty, but.. your demeanor could chase people away. I met alot of women like that lol.
So another thought, Dexterity... some kids these days have great manual dexterity meaning they can text a million words a minute... but they weigth like 200 pounds and cant do the splits... What is that score? I mean a fat rogue might be good at picking locks, but he isnt going to slip away...
Every attribute has many facets about them, how a player determines how they are portrayed is going to vary.
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Manshin
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Post by Manshin on Feb 28, 2013 16:19:59 GMT -5
This woman; Kara Bohigian has an 18 str. She can military press over 300 lbs. Google image her and you can see she is not unattractive. A pretty face, just a little scary. With a shining personality, this lady could easily be a good example of a high cha paladin. We catch heat if don't RP our low int/ wis / cha. If you ask me, it's a two way street. You ought to RP "all" your scores, even your freakish crushing str. There "is" an RP downside one pays for that natural +4 to strike & damage.
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Post by Trollfiend on Feb 28, 2013 16:57:36 GMT -5
I think we're overplaying strength a bit. There's a difference between carrying a heavy pack and lifting things with your arms alone. When you carry a pack, you're using your whole body. Sort of like squatting. Bench pressing is another matter.
with a 20 strength, a player can carry up to 400 pounds- that's not with only his arms.
At 29 strength, he can carry 1,400 pounds- that's not enough strength to be either Superman or the Hulk. You can't rip through steel bars or tear open a safe with your bare hands like someone would rip through thick cardboard. Superman can punch through a planet and the hulk is almost as strong. They can bend steel like it's nothing.
The same goes for the other attributes. They're not really superhuman level. Yeah, they're much more than normal humans, but the Flash's speed and agility is by far superior by the most epic of PC.
So if a PC with an 18 strength is benching 350, I have to call that being very far fetched since they can only carry 300 max using their whole body.
So, to answer the question, I think an 18 strength could be very beautiful indeed.
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Post by FORSETIS on Feb 28, 2013 17:11:26 GMT -5
So if a PC with an 18 strength is benching 350, I have to call that being very far fetched since they can only carry 300 max using their whole body. So, to answer the question, I think an 18 strength could be very beautiful indeed. There is a difference between what you can carry, and what you can press. Like you said. But I dont think you have it right. When I was in the army, we carried alot on ourselves. All in all(gear, ammo, weapons) Id say a 100 pounds for me. I was a m249 gunner. That 100 pounds sucked, I could do it all day, but it sucked. But I could turn around and press 350. So what im saying, is if you can walk around with 300 pounds all day, 350 is -cake-. And I see chicks at the gym who can press that, and thus have an "18 str" their not pretty... Just my thoughts on this.
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Post by Trollfiend on Feb 28, 2013 17:17:24 GMT -5
Everyone is different. I've always been able to carry more than I can press. I've always been weak at bench pressing, but carrying 100 pounds on my back while I was in the military would have been cake.
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