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Post by LivingWasteland on Nov 13, 2012 14:08:52 GMT -5
We all know that halforc PCs will not belong to an orc tribe because the engine is really not conclusive toward it, but that is player knowledge not character knowledge. Also orcs do not look like cute cuddly teddy bears. So, I would stop pretending they are. These are the two things said that stand out to me as pure opinion based statements. #1: Plenty of people, PC and NPC alike, understand that a half-orc can come from a human settlement. A half-orc is also completely capable of having perfect speech patterns and the ability to act with perfect human mannerisms. A half-orc is often born through an orc raping a human. If it's a female orc and a human male, the half-orc is likely going to be raised in the tribe because that's where the mother is. If it's a male orc and a human woman? Then it's likely going to be raised in human society. Will it's neighbors treat it completely as a human? No, there will be suspicion, insults, fear, and bigotry from the majority. I won't argue that. But not -everyone-, be it PC or NPC, is going to blame a half-orc for what one of it's parents did to the other. Some people even give them a chance to prove themselves. If they say they follow a good deity, or want to do good? Many people won't immediately call it a liar, they'd demand proof. In the Pathfinder campaign setting, half-orcs are treated all the same as other settings. However, guess what? There's a canon Half-Orc Paladin. When he walks in with his shining armor, white tabard, and huge holy symbol hanging form his neck people don't start throwing tomatoes and booing him out of town. My point is, you can be wary or distrustful of a half-orc all you want, but when you start demanding that every other players treats them like full-blooded orcs, you're crossing a line into crazy. Many people may distrust them at first, but many may also give them a chance to prove their worth. -Especially- adventurers. Adventurers are the people that spend their lives taking risks. From the way you've put it, trusting a half-orc sounds like one big risk. Sure, everyone is at war with orcs. Sure, your PC has an awful history with orcs. But have you noticed nowhere in the Forgotten Realms sourcebooks that everyone stays at war with just the orcs? Nobody has rallied a crusade against all the half-orcs in the world. You keep referencing WWII. How come nobody has rounded up all the half-orcs for labor and extermination if they are the ones that are so much worse than orcs? It feels like, from what I'm reading, is that you don't believe people should differentiate full and half blooded. That every player should hate them all without mercy or else you believe them metagaming their real life stance against racism. And that's...a really toxic attitude to have. Anyways, on to the last bit that stood out. Orcs being teddy bears. Nobody treats them like that. Nobody 'loves' their race for the sake of 'loving' it. Most adventurers that aren't against half-orcs have given one a chance. Now let me ask you something: If someone, regardless of their race or appearance, saved not only uour life, but the life of two people close to you, would you be capable of hating them? Say your PC dies. Say a half-orc raises your PC. When he gets up and asks what happened and learns the half-orc saved his life, would Aust draw a sword on the half-orc that raised him and say something like ' oh good I'm alive so I can kill another filthy orc?'
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Post by arisnorman1 on Nov 13, 2012 15:10:53 GMT -5
in all honesty if a half orc raised aris yes he would kill them. He does not like them and would mostlikely take a bath after being raised he dispised them and thinks they should all die. along with drow
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Post by hellscream123 on Nov 14, 2012 0:35:44 GMT -5
ok so in short; we've all got different opions about half-orcs........and should Rp how we like as we have for the past how many years?
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Post by LivingWasteland on Nov 14, 2012 4:05:57 GMT -5
in all honesty if a half orc raised aris yes he would kill them. He does not like them and would mostlikely take a bath after being raised he dispised them and thinks they should all die. along with drow Yes, but who would ever expect Aris to ever do anything sane?
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Post by ashaffer on Jan 11, 2013 21:51:37 GMT -5
Having read through this thread I have to say I agree with the essence of what the OP was trying to convey... There is definitely a problem with the way that Elves/Half-Elves react to Half-Orcs on FRC these days, and vice-versa. Is it a case of players who are just ignorant about the normal reactions different races should have toward each other? Or is it that the need to party up so that they can add levels to their PCs has trumped what should be valid RP considerations? I don't know, but I do know that there shouldn't be such a large prevalence of Elves/Half-Elves, on FRC, who don't have a problem with Half-Orcs, without truly valid IG/IC reasons. Cormyr itself is still recovering from a major orc invasion, which is the main reason you find so many orcs wandering around the countryside. These orcs are the remnants of that massive invasion force (hence the name Remnant Orc). Cormyrians, as a whole, definitely harbor hatred toward Orcs because many of them lost friends, or relatives, during the invasion. Two of my recent experiences:
Earlier this week my Elf PC, and another Elf, were standing in front of the inn's fence in GG, and a Half-Orc walked up to us, and started a conversation. No amount of hostile emotes seemed to encourage the Half-Orc to go away, that we weren't interested in speaking to them. The simple fact that the Half-Orc should have known that Elves don't like Half-Orcs, and shouldn't have even thought to attempt a conversation in the first place, never entered into the equation. Finally they had to be bluntly told to go away, and we left the area. Soon after I received a tell from another player who was in the area at the time saying: "it's good to see elves who don't like orcs for once!". That floored me. My Elven PC, who dislikes Half-Orcs, and hates their kin, is a rarity on FRC these days?! WTH?!
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Then later that night, after almost physically running into a different Half-Orc in Garrot's as I was leaving the store, and seeing another one at the table outside, my PC made this off the cuff comment in Elven to her Elven companion: "I don't understand why they let those things into town." 50 seconds later (Yes, exactly 50 seconds, I looked at my log) we were approached by a Half-Elf, who basically proceeded to read us the riot act for our negative viewpoint on Half-Orcs. Take into account that we had not taunted, harassed, or otherwise interacted with any of the Half-Orcs present. We stayed strictly away from them, and my PC had commented IN ELVEN about how she couldn't understand why GG let them into town, and a HALF-ELF took it upon herself to lectured two full blooded ELVES about how wrong they were about disliking Half-Orcs. Yet another PC that should have known, at the very least, considering she didn't seem to have a background lacking in knowing about her Elven heritage, that Elves normally don't like Half-Orcs, and that even if you're friendly with them you don't lecture other Elves about their perfectly conventional attitude towards them. It definitely was quite a bizarre encounter, and it utterly baffled me, the player, and my PC. Don't get me wrong, the PC, and player, were perfectly polite, and not at all hostile about it, so the delivery was fine. What I find fault in is that it should never have occurred to them to deliver such a lecture in the first place.
All Elves, including Half-Elves, customarily strongly dislike Half-Orcs. It's definitely not the full blown hatred Elves/Half-Elves have for full blooded Orcs, so they can usually restrain themselves from attacking them on sight, but there should be absolutely no expectation that Elves/Half-Elves will be friendly toward Half-Orcs at all. If your Elven/Half-Elven PC has a friendly attitude towards Half-Orcs then it is YOU who is going against the grain, not the other PC, and you should have an extremely good IC reason for it. You should also expect to have to justify your good opinion of Half-Orcs, or one Half-Orc in particular if that is the case, to other Elven/Half-Elven PCs who will undoubtably find fault with your unorthodox views. Either way, be prepared for the IG consequence of it. You may find yourself thought insane, shunned, scorned, or possibly exiled from Elven society depending on the circumstances. Think of it this way: You invite your friend, who is obviously a nazi, to a party that also has Jewish people in attendance. What do you think will happen, even if your nazi friend behaves himself? Definitely nothing good, and you cannot fault the Jews for their attitude, since they have millions of reason to hate nazis. It's the same with Elves, Orcs, and Half-Orcs. Yes, adventurers are not what would be considered "normal", but we still come from a baseline norm for each of our races, and we build upon that. If you're going against what the majority of your race feels about Half-Orcs then you should certainly have a valid IC reason for it. It shouldn't be a half-assed excuse, like an "Oh, that Half-Orc held the door, to the inn, open for me, so I like him now." kind of reason. And, I'm sorry, only wanting a meatshield for an adventure really isn't a good enough reason for an Elf/Half-Elf to be voluntarily traveling with a Half-Orc. It would be like a Jew being nice to a nazi, and asking them to be their bodyguard. Definitely bad form. There are only two playable player races on FRC (Humans, and Halflings) who are neutral toward Half-Orcs. All the others feel antipathy, or hatred towards them. It's a tough race to play, and if someone playing a Half-Orc on FRC expects it to be all happiness, and butterflies, then they need to pick another race to play. Or go to another server where being a Half-Orc isn't an issue. All you have to do is read the default Half-Orc description: "Wherever you travel, those around you either shun you or drive you away because of your orc blood. Hoping to gain some respect, you have set off in search of high adventure." to get a clue as to what is in store for you when you play one. Basically it comes down to the fact that FRC is a roleplay server, not a "anything goes" server. It's based in Cormyr in the Forgotten Realms, which should not be, in any way, confused with present day Earth. 21st century Earth sensibilities, political correctness, and morals, have no place here. Racism, for want of a better word, in the Forgotten Realms is a reality, is considered ethically correct in many cases, and frequently has a very good justification for it. There are many different intelligent races, with lots of history between one other, including Elves, and Orcs. Those two races alone have a looooooooong history of conflict, and that conflict illustrates why they are racial enemies. They don't hate one another for no apparent reason. There are plenty of reasons, and more that happen each, and every, day. If it sounds like I'm trying to dictate to people what their PCs must do, I'm not. I'm saying that when you deviate from the source material, you should have a good IC reason, and be prepared to accept all the IG consequences for it. If you don't know what the source material says, then you should educate yourself. There is plenty of information to be found in the Lore of the Lands section of these forums. An elf is not going to be shunned, scorned, or kicked out of elven society for being friends with a half-blooded orc. This goes back to Elves being the long-lived, wise race that they are. A race known for it's wisdom is not going to immediately cast judgement with no thought to extenuating circumstances. All angles would be considered, and reasoning would be heard. Wrong... An Elf could very well find themselves shunned, scorned, or kicked out of elven society for being friendly to Half-Orcs. It all depends on the circumstances. One of my own PCs, who, at the behest of another Elven PC, merely traveled with a few Half-Orcs into the Hullack, got barred from the Elven settlement for a time because of it. Not putting my foot down, and refusing to travel with them, really bit me in the ass, and I learned my lesson. There have been other Elven PCs who have gotten into trouble as well over other situations with Half-Orcs. IC actions can really come back to haunt you, and they should. If you don't want to pay the piper, then don't ask him to play. It's that simple.
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jan 11, 2013 22:56:40 GMT -5
Here's my take, and some new amunition.
Lets face it, Half-orcs are a PLAYABLE race, which means there are a lot of them. You can be sure that faerunian women don't have universally poor standards, so that says only one thing. There is a whoooole lot of rape going on by orcs. This is the unspoken truth that should make an orc hater out of even the most liberal politically correct medival adventurer(oxymoron I know).
Orcs are worse than just "aggressive." They are serial rapists who raid human (among other) settlments, drag survivors underground. Men and children are devoured, women are raped repeatedly until impregnated, held captive to endure gods only know what, then released, heavy with child at the edges of human civilization. The babies are mostly likley treated as abombanations by most, though many may wind up on temple doorsteps while mum heads for the puzzle factory.
Xenaphobic and warlike, orc faiths demand that they rule. Period. If they can't beat us out, they'll breed us out.
There is no good reason for anyone to spout politically correct equality mumbo jumbo about orcs. They would be absolutly hated in society, perhaps even moreso than drow and other nasty races.
Half orcs would probably not get much better from "most" people. I understand adventurer's are a bit differant, but straight out hostile bigotry is more than acceptable in my opinion.
This is a thing that must arise from the player base. It can't come by a rule or anything else. Back in the days when I played Manshin, the elves did a great job of hating orcs and half orcs. Nearly every elvish player and many human players embraced this as the proper canon way to RP their race... I concur. If you want a revival... start hating and others will join you. Soon FRC will look like a Klan ralley against orcs, and all will be merry!
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Post by ashaffer on Jan 11, 2013 23:20:16 GMT -5
Back in the days when I played Manshin, the elves did a great job of hating orcs and half orcs. Nearly every elvish player and many human players embraced this as the proper canon way to RP their race... I concur. Those were the good old days... *sigh* I couldn't agree more with your post, except for your use of the word "elvish". The proper word is Elven. ;D
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Post by Pookey on Jan 11, 2013 23:25:33 GMT -5
Back in the days when I played Manshin, the elves did a great job of hating orcs and half orcs. Nearly every elvish player and many human players embraced this as the proper canon way to RP their race... I concur. Those were the good old days... *sigh* I couldn't agree more with your post, except for your use of the word "elvish". The proper word is Elven. ;D I thought it was Elvenish
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Post by darinder on Jan 11, 2013 23:34:09 GMT -5
This again? *weeps*
Seriously, I'm never going to agree with anything that mandates IC behaviour; there should always be exceptions so long as there's something to justify those exceptions.
People often speak of the hatred of half-orcs, but isn't it also canon that half-elves are typically shunned by both their parent races? Yet, how often do we see that portrayed?
Getting back to half-orcs, they are not their parents. Can't there be an instance of somebody (say, an Ilmateri) taking pity on the unfortunate b*st*rd child? After all, they can't be blamed for their parentage.
By all means, play your own characters as racist (heck, most of mine are) but please don't tell other players theirs must be too.
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Post by darinder on Jan 11, 2013 23:35:10 GMT -5
Those were the good old days... *sigh* I couldn't agree more with your post, except for your use of the word "elvish". The proper word is Elven. ;D I thought it was Elvenish Er, don't you mean Elvishen? *runs away and hides*
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Manshin
Old School
FRC2 Build Team
Posts: 703
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Post by Manshin on Jan 12, 2013 2:28:17 GMT -5
No one suggested mandates on behavior. Im all about voluntary action! If you want to see a revival in wanton sensless hate... make a hater!
Oh and I just read elsewhere that rape RP is a no no... so I guess there simply are a lot of hopelessly romantic orcs out there woeing Faerunian women who have incredably bad taste in the gentlemen they allow to court them.
Now there's an even better reason to hate orcs than serial rape. Those slick bastards are stealing all our women with their quick wit and charm!
BURN THEM!
Maybe its a tusk fetish?
edit: Screw pauncy elvooshi. all the same.
Also, the slany eye thing about shou... people need to relax and go watch Grand Torino. I play NWN to escape from ridiculous over-sensitive politically correct nonsense. Besides my main character is shou... thats a free pass isnt it? One can always make fun of their own race... just not any others without the bore-police coming out to cry at you.
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Post by breadandcircuses on Jan 12, 2013 3:45:16 GMT -5
So I was the half-orc that approached the elves, and I'd like to give my side of that: 1. He's a bard, and knowledge and truth and The Lore are all very important to him. Along this line, the story of Myth Drannor (The most famous elven city hands down in the realm) hold special meaning to him. Asking Elves about it was natural. 2. He's under the impression that a race where the average age seems to be roughly 150 years is wise enough to understand the difference between a half-orc and an orc. This is related to his upbringing. He is not high wisdom. 3. By reacting hostile immediately, it annoyed him, and annoying people who annoy you is a common past time for thinking creatures. The elves didn't want to talk so to get a little payback he tried to talk to them. 4. A relatively isolated and insular life up until coming to Cormyr. Half-orcs have no culture, so they're going to have the culture of whatever society they grew up in. Many half-orcs are foundlings or abandoned, some are raised by their parent (generally the female human), and a few are raised within their orc tribe (usually treated very badly, since they're weaker then orcs). No matter where they come from they're outsiders. It's in the default race description. That being said, I think part of the problem here is how people view racism in real life and then try to apply it in game. In real life it's usually portrayed in the media in a very caricature and fake way. That's not to say it isn't also like that, but that's not how racism tends to be all the time. It isn't always slathering at the jaws stuff, "kill them all". I would also point out that every single race on Faerun believes they and they alone are the superior race, except maybe the gnomes and the halflings, though I feel halflings are just pretending to be nice. Elves think everyone is dumb, dwarves think everyone else are stupid, humans think everyone else are idiots, and it's a central part of the philosophy of both orcs and gnolls and kobolds and drow et al. www.purpleduckgames.com/qhorc A friend pointed me to this website when I asked him about making a half-orc, and I think it's a great resource for someone who wants to have their character dislike half-orcs in a slightly more realistic, or perhaps a more precise manner.
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perspicacity
Proven Member
Those who do not want to imitate anything, produce nothing. -Dali
Posts: 196
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Post by perspicacity on Jan 12, 2013 3:53:27 GMT -5
Perhaps a bit off topic, but gnomes, generally, are so certain of their superiority they assume its readily apparent and need not even be discussed. ;D
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Post by simon1981 on Jan 12, 2013 5:57:38 GMT -5
On the whole, I agree with the sentiment that elves are going to mistrust or dislike half-orcs. That may mean that initially, my Elf PC might leave a party if a half-orc joined it, but only if the half-orc was openly hostile to him.
What's far more likely is that I'd initiate RP that involved making snide comments or instigating tension between the characters, because that's fun to RP.
I'd completely leave it up to the RP, but there is no reason why the two couldn't eventually become friends.
I think many people forget that, essentially, elves are a Chaotic Good race. That means that they'll respect the opinions and ideas of other individuals, regardless of race. So an elf that becomes friends with a half-orc? Not impossible. Other elves might think it was odd, or be wary, but I know that such an elf would not be 'shunned' by his people.
In fact, with regards to player races like half-elves and half-orcs, it's far more likely that elves would regard them more with pity than anything else.
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Post by breadandcircuses on Jan 12, 2013 13:40:25 GMT -5
I think another thing that might help is breaking down the stereotypes that would exist within the setting towards half-orcs.
But before we get into that, I'd like to point out a false assumption here: Bigotry is not the same as racism. While they often go hand in hand, they aren't the same thing.
Racism is about racial superiority of one race over another. Every race in the realm is racist, generally speaking. Each one believes it is the true inheritor of the world and everyone else is Doing It Wrong. They tend to vary wildly in bigotry though; some are 'we have to kill them' and others are like 'we have to pity them' and others are like 'we can ignore them since they're inferior to us', and others might even go "We need to uplift them to our culture".
Anyway stereotypes:
1. Half-orcs are strong: Technically this is true. Half-orcs have a +2 to strength. Since the average human has a stat line of 10 10 10 10 10 10 (dnd 3.5 players handbook), the half-orc average stat line would look like this: 12 10 10 8 10 8. So yes, half-orcs are naturally stronger then all the other races. HOwever stereotypes tend to have only a small basis in truth so I imagine the stereotype would be 'every half-orc is much stronger then a human'. It helps make them more dangerous, and feeds into stereotype 5.
2. Half-orcs are dumb: Again, -technically- true. It might be better said that half-orcs have a harder time learning then other races (The Wild-Elf Subrace in FR has a hit to intelligence as well, to give an idea of this and how it might work). In this case the stereotype is an obvious 'Half-orcs are dumb'.
3. Half-orcs are hot blooded: Aggressive, violent, and amorous. This would probably be an extension of what people see as how orcs are. Which is true. I suppose you could technically explain this as being due to increased testosterone production, but most people would just consider it to be because half-orcs are half-orc.
4. Half-orcs are ugly: Charisma 8. I don't really want to get into a charisma 'what is it' contest, so I'll just say that half-orcs aren't humans, and they aren't orcs. It might be a matter of uncanny valley more then straight ugly generally speaking.
5. Half-orcs are bestial: This is the really big one and I think the key to the attitude in the realm. Sum up the half-orcs stereotypes. They're big, dumb, stupid, amorous, low-charisma individuals. They're hairy. They have prominent jaws and tusk. It all feeds into the image of a half-orc being less then people.
I can think of more but I thought I'd just throw these out to help people refine their racism and bigotry. If people can think of more stereotypes or maybe why these don't fit in the setting that'd be great. The important thing is to keep the stereotypes as IC as possible and not to let ourselves meta-game them towards or back.
I'd also say that I ran into an elf who was quite nice to the half-orc, but let slip some seriously racist comments about him. That was great because it showed racism without slathering hatred.
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Post by Sadistic Hobo on Jan 12, 2013 15:18:13 GMT -5
I think the TL;DR for this thread should be;
You are free you RP your own character's views on half-orcs however they would view them. This is perfectly reasonable and saying no to it is just the same tired old "Roleplay my way" forum police line.
You should not role play or emote in ways that alter the prevailing views of the setting to fit your character's opinion. At that point it's not "I'm roleplaying my way", because you're trying to change facts beyond your control as a player character.
To turn it from "Why can't we give him a chance, I think he's alright" to "Dude that's so wrong everybody knows better" is going from playing your character to God emoting. If you force your PC's opinion onto the setting, it gets to a point where it's reasonable for other players to say "Hang on: No."
The difference is just keeping it in perspective from playing your own character's mindset to god emoting all over an established setting.
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Post by The Flying Ve on Jan 12, 2013 16:20:15 GMT -5
the other extreme, god emoting in utter defiance of the established setting, is something that one may well do to avoid as well. Two sides, same coin, but one that's often forgotten.
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Post by Thrym on Jan 12, 2013 20:19:56 GMT -5
To add to the talk about how only people with high wisdom should act with some enlightened 'everyone is equal' point of view, I'm not sure this actually applies in the FR. Is 'everyone is equal' actualy true in the FR? Some races actually do have a bonus or penalty to intelligence. If a nazi says the jews are retarded, vile sub-humans, that's of course *bovine manure*. But the average sun elf has 12 intelligence while the average orc is a vile brute with 8 intelligence, and there's actually low level core spells to measure someone's intellect (and determine if they're evil), so if a Sun Elf says Orcs are retarded, vile sub-elves, then... well, what then? He is right and can actually prove it. And it's not just int-scores. The FR specifically has a deity of nobility called the Divine Right. When a RL king says he has the Divine Right to rule given to him by the gods, that's amusing at most. When the King of Cormyr says he has the Divine Right to rule giving to him by the gods, he's ... actually right. A high wisdom character with a benevolent bent might believe all life is sacred, but he'd not necessarily agree it's equal. Everyone is equal in RL because we're all humans, but in the FR there's humans, and there's humans blessed by the gods or born with innate magic, and there's elves, and orcs, and house-sized hyper-intelligent flying lizard archmages that breathe fire, and... if you wanted to argue that some of these are inherently better than some others, you'd have a very, very good basis for that. Mind you, I'm curious how someone would actually argue for say, a normal adult gold dragon and a normal adult human being equal.
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Post by LivingWasteland on Jan 13, 2013 1:58:36 GMT -5
I was the one that brought up wisdom, and unless I missed something I didn't see many other people touch on it.
I didn't say high wisdom equals viewing all as equal. I had stated that wisdom equals temperance.
Example:
*Elf gets taken to an Elven council*
Elder: You were seen associating with a half-orc. Why?
Accused Elf: Said Half-Orc saved the lives of myself and my companions without prompting. Found us after a bad situation, and saved us. I believed it right to show a certain level of kindness to one who displayed such compassion to strangers.
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At this point, I have an extremely hard time believing the accused elf would be punished or exiled. I've read a lot of source material. I've read a lot of Forgotten Realms novels. Elves are according to canon known as one of the, if not THE most, wise race of humanoids on Toril. They do not often make hasty decisions and will spend a lot of time considering things. They view humans as being entirely too hasty even. So, given the circumstance and the reasoning the accused had, it seems downright stupid to believe that such a wise people would punish or exile the accused. If it was a full-blooded orc? Maybe. It may have 'saved' them for diabolical reasons. But a halfbreed?
Wisdom = Temperance.
Not acceptance (Without good reason), not immediate 'best friends', but a neutrality possibly tilting towards tentative kindness in return for that given.
If everyone believes I'm completely wrong on this, then I'll concede defeat and just stop playing my elf. Which, mind, is my only PC left on FRC.
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Post by Lady Frost on Jan 13, 2013 6:34:53 GMT -5
I was the one that brought up wisdom, and unless I missed something I didn't see many other people touch on it. I didn't say high wisdom equals viewing all as equal. I had stated that wisdom equals temperance. Example: *Elf gets taken to an Elven council* Elder: You were seen associating with a half-orc. Why? Accused Elf: Said Half-Orc saved the lives of myself and my companions without prompting. Found us after a bad situation, and saved us. I believed it right to show a certain level of kindness to one who displayed such compassion to strangers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ At this point, I have an extremely hard time believing the accused elf would be punished or exiled. I've read a lot of source material. I've read a lot of Forgotten Realms novels. Elves are according to canon known as one of the, if not THE most, wise race of humanoids on Toril. They do not often make hasty decisions and will spend a lot of time considering things. They view humans as being entirely too hasty even. So, given the circumstance and the reasoning the accused had, it seems downright stupid to believe that such a wise people would punish or exile the accused. If it was a full-blooded orc? Maybe. It may have 'saved' them for diabolical reasons. But a halfbreed? Wisdom = Temperance. Not acceptance (Without good reason), not immediate 'best friends', but a neutrality possibly tilting towards tentative kindness in return for that given. If everyone believes I'm completely wrong on this, then I'll concede defeat and just stop playing my elf. Which, mind, is my only PC left on FRC. I don't think many would disagree with this point. However, I think what people are saying is that most PC's don't have a story or reason like this. There is no "good reason" to explain their uncharacteristic actions/feelings.
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Post by ashaffer on Jan 13, 2013 8:13:08 GMT -5
So I was the half-orc that approached the elves, and I'd like to give my side of that: No, it wasn't your Half-Orc I was referring to, so no worries… You were only the one sitting at the table in my second experience. From Lore of the Lands> Races of Faerun> Fair Folk: Half-Orcs: The racial enmity between elves and orcs goes back to the creation of the races and the legendary battle between Corellon Larethian and Gruumsh, the orc deity. According to the legend, elves sprang from the drops of Corellon’s blood that was shed while the two fought. Because the Creator of the Elves bested Gruumsh, taking out his enemy’s eye with a flick of his longsword, elves are convinced of their innate superiority over the bestial orcs. Nevertheless, orcs have waged war against elves more than any other race, and rarely does a confrontation end without bloody conflict. Given this history, most elves harbor neither trust nor affection for the brutish humanoids, and they regard the half-breed spawn of their enemies with barely concealed suspicion. An elf may greet a half-orc pleasantly enough, but her hand is usually on her sword hilt when she does so. Because elves believe strongly in the power of the individual to overcome any obstacle, an individual elf is generally inclined to give an individual half-orc the benefit of the doubt. Few true friendships arise between these races, but a certain camaraderie is possible. The Fair Folk thread is a must read for anyone playing an Elf/Half-Elf… I highly recommend it!!! Basically what it comes down to is respect… Respect for the setting, source material, roleplay, and lastly for your fellow players. All I want is for other players of Elves/Half-Elves to be made aware of the NORMAL reaction Elves/Half-Elves have towards Half-Orcs. If you have a good IC reason to be friendly to one, then that's great, but don't expect other Elves/Half-Elves to agree with you, and certainly don't act like they're the ones with the problem. You're the one going against the grain, not them.
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Post by Pookey on Jan 13, 2013 13:19:20 GMT -5
So I was the half-orc that approached the elves, and I'd like to give my side of that: 1. He's a bard, and knowledge and truth and The Lore are all very important to him. Along this line, the story of Myth Drannor (The most famous elven city hands down in the realm) hold special meaning to him. Asking Elves about it was natural. 2. He's under the impression that a race where the average age seems to be roughly 150 years is wise enough to understand the difference between a half-orc and an orc. This is related to his upbringing. He is not high wisdom. 3. By reacting hostile immediately, it annoyed him, and annoying people who annoy you is a common past time for thinking creatures. The elves didn't want to talk so to get a little payback he tried to talk to them. 4. A relatively isolated and insular life up until coming to Cormyr. Half-orcs have no culture, so they're going to have the culture of whatever society they grew up in. Many half-orcs are foundlings or abandoned, some are raised by their parent (generally the female human), and a few are raised within their orc tribe (usually treated very badly, since they're weaker then orcs). No matter where they come from they're outsiders. It's in the default race description. That being said, I think part of the problem here is how people view racism in real life and then try to apply it in game. In real life it's usually portrayed in the media in a very caricature and fake way. That's not to say it isn't also like that, but that's not how racism tends to be all the time. It isn't always slathering at the jaws stuff, "kill them all". I would also point out that every single race on Faerun believes they and they alone are the superior race, except maybe the gnomes and the halflings, though I feel halflings are just pretending to be nice. Elves think everyone is dumb, dwarves think everyone else are stupid, humans think everyone else are idiots, and it's a central part of the philosophy of both orcs and gnolls and kobolds and drow et al. www.purpleduckgames.com/qhorc A friend pointed me to this website when I asked him about making a half-orc, and I think it's a great resource for someone who wants to have their character dislike half-orcs in a slightly more realistic, or perhaps a more precise manner. Just to say, I was the other elf in this situation, and I think your roleplay was fine. I had no problem with it. Your half orc was obviously a more refined type of person than the usual half orc, and wasn't expecting the reaction you got. I knew your character was annoyed and was twitting us, and I was amused, though my character wasn't. My problem, and the point of what ashaffer was saying, is that I did get annoyed when I was questioned about why my elf disliked half orcs. That's like asking me why I don't like armed robbers. Well duh! They rob people at gunpoint. The question is inane. If I said I really liked armed robbers, then you could legitimately ask me why I like them, because normally people don't like armed robbers. Ditto with orcs. If I like half orcs by default, then I have no beef if you ask me why, because elves normally dislike half orcs and I'm not being normal. But don't in any way think I had a problem with your half-orc's actions or attitudes, because I didn't. I probably should have sent you a smiley tell just to be sure you understood that, too! Anyway, here it is: :-)
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 13, 2013 13:34:31 GMT -5
So I was the half-orc that approached the elves, and I'd like to give my side of that: 1. He's a bard, and knowledge and truth and The Lore are all very important to him. Along this line, the story of Myth Drannor (The most famous elven city hands down in the realm) hold special meaning to him. Asking Elves about it was natural. 2. He's under the impression that a race where the average age seems to be roughly 150 years is wise enough to understand the difference between a half-orc and an orc. This is related to his upbringing. He is not high wisdom. 3. By reacting hostile immediately, it annoyed him, and annoying people who annoy you is a common past time for thinking creatures. The elves didn't want to talk so to get a little payback he tried to talk to them. 4. A relatively isolated and insular life up until coming to Cormyr. Half-orcs have no culture, so they're going to have the culture of whatever society they grew up in. Many half-orcs are foundlings or abandoned, some are raised by their parent (generally the female human), and a few are raised within their orc tribe (usually treated very badly, since they're weaker then orcs). No matter where they come from they're outsiders. It's in the default race description. That being said, I think part of the problem here is how people view racism in real life and then try to apply it in game. In real life it's usually portrayed in the media in a very caricature and fake way. That's not to say it isn't also like that, but that's not how racism tends to be all the time. It isn't always slathering at the jaws stuff, "kill them all". I would also point out that every single race on Faerun believes they and they alone are the superior race, except maybe the gnomes and the halflings, though I feel halflings are just pretending to be nice. Elves think everyone is dumb, dwarves think everyone else are stupid, humans think everyone else are idiots, and it's a central part of the philosophy of both orcs and gnolls and kobolds and drow et al. www.purpleduckgames.com/qhorc A friend pointed me to this website when I asked him about making a half-orc, and I think it's a great resource for someone who wants to have their character dislike half-orcs in a slightly more realistic, or perhaps a more precise manner. Just to say, I was the other elf in this situation, and I think your roleplay was fine. I had no problem with it. Your half orc was obviously a more refined type of person than the usual half orc, and wasn't expecting the reaction you got. I knew your character was annoyed and was twitting us, and I was amused, though my character wasn't. My problem, and the point of what ashaffer was saying, is that I did get annoyed when I was questioned about why my elf disliked half orcs. That's like asking me why I don't like armed robbers. Well duh! They rob people at gunpoint. The question is inane. If I said I really liked armed robbers, then you could legitimately ask me why I like them, because normally people don't like armed robbers. Ditto with orcs. If I like half orcs by default, then I have no beef if you ask me why, because elves normally dislike half orcs and I'm not being normal. But don't in any way think I had a problem with your half-orc's actions or attitudes, because I didn't. I probably should have sent you a smiley tell just to be sure you understood that, too! Anyway, here it is: :-) my character also was taken aback to the same question, elves are bound by the divine to hate orcs, half-orcs, while are "different" have the unfortunate fact of often times by being labeled with the same brush. I enjoyed the rp, but really it's just IC stereotypes, which can be broken, but it won't happen over night.
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Post by warmaster on Jan 16, 2013 16:57:20 GMT -5
The Half-Orc army will rise again. RISE AGAIN!
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