DM Q&A: Merchant Laws & Prices

[CheesyBeards]

I've tried to find the information IG, but on both occasions none of the DMs could help me. I can't seem to find information about the OOC rules regarding IC merchants, pricing etc. Can someone link me to it?

And I asked this IG aswell, just want to doublecheck - if someone ICly decides to work outside the law, the punishment would be entirely IC yes? By this I mean, by not revealing too much here, to trade without a merchants certificate of course, in the more shady array of dealings

[Savoie Faire]

OOC rules regarding IC merchants, pricing etc.

Please clarify. I am not certain exactly what you wish to know here. We will certainly not list the rates of exchange for each merchant, as this is information best discovered in game.

Trade without a merchant's liscense is an in-game in-character act, and will be handled as such. Try not to do so in the sight of NPC guards, as we DM's aren't always available to posess them and deal with miscreants in the manner with which guardsmen customarily do.

We will deal OOC'ly in situations of twinking, muling, or other munchkin-like activity in the manner listed in your rules. Please do not allow your illicit trade to cross over into these categories of activity.

[Munroe]

Mar 28, 2011 16:10:18 GMT -5 Savoie Faire said:

We will deal OOC'ly in situations of twinking, muling, or other munchkin-like activity in the manner listed in your rules. Please do not allow your illicit trade to cross over into these categories of activity.

To clarify this point, items should not be sold for less than 50% of prices found with NPC merchants who carry the item. Most items that you're likely to come across can be found in a store in the module. Setting up your prices may involve traveling around and looking through shops to find these in-store prices. (Think of it as market research for competitive pricing.)

If an item cannot be found in a store, it can be priced at 2.5x (250%) what the item could be sold to an NPC merchant for. This only applies for items that can't be found in a store, it is not an excuse not to check stores nor a work-around to undercut the 50% price-point.

This is an OOC concern to prevent people from being able to accquire goods too cheaply. As such, failure to follow these price guidelines is addressed in an OOC manner.

Note that this does not specify how much EXTRA you can charge for an item above and beyond these rates, only the minimum pricing. (Though if your price seems like an excuse for twinking by having a wealthy friend by crap at very high prices, that will still be addressed.)

================================================

That having been said, the Merchant License is an in-character construct and ultimately has no significance concerning item pricing. People selling without a license should still follow the minimum pricing formulas as these are an OOC concern.

The in-character punishment for operating without a license involves confiscation of goods and is detailed on the list of laws and punishments in Greatgaunt.

[Munroe]

I've also bumped an older thread where the pricing was discussed.

How low is too low?

Edit: Interestingly, that thread was started 3 years and one week ago.

[CheesyBeards]

Mar 28, 2011 14:43:35 GMT -5 CheesyBeards said:

I've tried to find the information IG, but on both occasions none of the DMs could help me. I can't seem to find information about the OOC rules regarding IC merchants, pricing etc. Can someone link me to it?

And I asked this IG aswell, just want to doublecheck - if someone ICly decides to work outside the law, the punishment would be entirely IC yes? By this I mean, by not revealing too much here, to trade without a merchants certificate of course, in the more shady array of dealings

Hello! I'm not a DM, and so I didn't want to publically post in your DM Q&A thread, but I think I can answer your question.

There are separate IC rules and OOC rules regarding merchanting. Violations of IC rules are, I'd imagine, to be dealt with only ICly, while violations of OOCly rules are dealt with OOCly; typically a first offense would warrant a warning, while further offenses would result in actual disciplinary action.

The primary IC law regarding merchanting is that all merchants who wish to operate legally in Cormyr must purchase a merchant license, at the cost of ten thousand lions. It used to be that this only applied to Greatgaunt, and that a license could be purchased from the innkeeper there with DM aid, but it has since been expanded to apply to the entire country. If you have a character who wants to purchase a merchant license, just contact a DM for help, and they can point you to the right NPCs.

Your character can attempt to operate as a merchant without a license, but if ICly uncovered by authority figures, they could face harsh legal repercussions, including the confiscation of trade goods and a fine.

The primary OOC rule regarding merchanting is really an extension of the server rules involving twinking. Basically, you're not allowed to sell items for a too unfairly low price to low level PCs, as that would be giving them an unfair advantage; it would be twinking. The general guideline on prices is that you should try to sell items for no less than half of what they cost to purchase from an NPC merchant, or if you can't find an NPC merchant that sells the item in question, two and a half times what you can sell the item to an NPC for.

This rule is one that you need to abide by OOCly if you want to play a merchant, even if your PC would ICly be more lenient. It's an actual OOC server rule, as opposed to an IC law. My characters sometimes make up pseudo-IC excuses to abide by it, like "if I set my prices too much lower than the shop merchants, I'll get all kinds of trouble from the merchant guild," but how you handle that is really up to you.

Some players have in the past found the rule difficult to understand and properly follow, because the prices items are worth in stores varies depending on the PC in question's appraise, and on which shop you're looking at. For example, an item that costs 8,000 in one shop might cost 6,000 in another.

We've discussed the matter extensively in the Player Advocate forums, and had hoped to come up with a good way to simplify the system further, but it's still a work in progress. For the time being, if you have any difficulty figuring out a legal price to sell an item for, please feel free to shoot me a PM or a tell either on the forums or in game, and I'd be glad to help out.

If you found this useful, please feel free to repost it publically in your DM Q&A thread, so that the DM team will know the matter was addressed, and so that other players with similar issues can have their questions answered. I would myself, but they don't like for anyone to post in DM Q&A except DMs and people who start threads.

Mar 28, 2011 17:41:17 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Mar 28, 2011 16:10:18 GMT -5 Savoie Faire said:

We will deal OOC'ly in situations of twinking, muling, or other munchkin-like activity in the manner listed in your rules. Please do not allow your illicit trade to cross over into these categories of activity.

To clarify this point, items should not be sold for less than 50% of prices found with NPC merchants who carry the item. Most items that you're likely to come across can be found in a store in the module. Setting up your prices may involve traveling around and looking through shops to find these in-store prices. (Think of it as market research for competitive pricing.)

If an item cannot be found in a store, it can be priced at 2.5x (250%) what the item could be sold to an NPC merchant for. This only applies for items that can't be found in a store, it is not an excuse not to check stores nor a work-around to undercut the 50% price-point.

This is an OOC concern to prevent people from being able to accquire goods too cheaply. As such, failure to follow these price guidelines is addressed in an OOC manner.

Note that this does not specify how much EXTRA you can charge for an item above and beyond these rates, only the minimum pricing. (Though if your price seems like an excuse for twinking by having a wealthy friend by crap at very high prices, that will still be addressed.)

================================================

That having been said, the Merchant License is an in-character construct and ultimately has no significance concerning item pricing. People selling without a license should still follow the minimum pricing formulas as these are an OOC concern.

The in-character punishment for operating without a license involves confiscation of goods and is detailed on the list of laws and punishments in Greatgaunt.

This was pretty much exactly what I looked for, thank you.
No I wasn't enquiring the NPC merchants pricings that would be metagaming >.<

I was asking for the rules, which two DMs stated IG to me excisted, but there seemed to be no written rule IG on how an PC merchant should conduct, and they couldn't tell me directly.

How does this affect Traps?
I was told the IC flux of prices is a gazillion times lower when dealing PC to PC, than if you buy them off the NPC merchants.
Traps are insanely expensive to buy from NPC merchants, but you get -nothing- for them when selling them.

I was also told that usually a Minor Trap goes for around 25 GP, when trading between players. While Minor Traps varies from 14 GP to over 2000 GP in Renner's shop in GG.

[Munroe]

As traps are a craftable item, they are governed more by the non-standard pricing of crafted items.

This is from the other thread I linked:

Jan 23, 2010 0:13:40 GMT -5 Munroe said:

It doesn't apply to crafted items but to found items and purchased items that are being resold. Crafted items have a base crafting cost so things shouldn't be sold for less than it. Ideally there should be some mark-up as well, but minimum mark-up isn't specified explicitly. (In some cases, such as scrolls, crafting an item costs more than it costs to buy it so there's no good uniform formula for crafted items.) In a few cases of crafting, we ask that players not resell them at all, such as with that one paladin spell that is a weapon enchantment. Holy Sword, I think. Paladins can scribe it very very cheap for some reason and it has a high caster level/long duration and a lot of benefits to the user. If they sell it at a competitive price with the market, they make a fortune. If they sell it based on how much it costs them, they put a very powerful weapon into circulation for very little gold.

In the case of traps, they generally can't be resold to NPC merchants. There may be a few merchants in the module who will take them, but not for any "real" profit.

They're a craftable item with no crafting cost (unless you count the Trapmaking kit, which costs a few thousand gp), so the value of the trap really comes down to the value of what it is made of. Some traps are more valuable than others for their raw materials, but in the end they are generally more valuable as traps, which don't have much value.

Does that make sense?

In other words, traps are basically a player-to-player market, and, in fact, are often given away by people who can't use them to other people who can. (Considering that each trap weighs 0.5 lbs and 1-to-5 stacked traps takes 4 squares of inventory, they can be self-limiting.)

[Sabremoe]

Going around for market research is all very well, but what if the item exists on the server and you're not able to find it so thinking it doesn't exist? Will it be possible to have a list of items available for purchase? No location or prices required, but it'd be good to know when you sell something you're not unintentionally breaking any rules.

[Savoie Faire]

Every item property you are likely to encounter has an analogue somewhere in a shop.

For example, assume you are researching a ring with +3 Int property and you can't find one in a store to compare. Can you find a +3 Dex ring? A +3 Con amulet? A +3 Str belt?

Now let's assume you have somehow aquired a +3 sword with +3 int property. (Not an available item.) You can derive this price by adding the +3 weapon price to the +3 ring price.

We on the staff aren't out to make life hard on players. If you can at least explain how you derived your price we are more likely to forgive than if you just say, "I guessed." We are on the lookout for twinkers, not players who accidentally underprice by a few hundred gold. In such a case I or most any other DM would say, "Charge more appropriately in the future," if we catch you accidentally underselling. Deliberate underselling is what we are trying to curb.

As a general guide, you shouldn't sell any item to a PC that is more powerful than an item the PC is likely to find in game. If the PC is finding +1 skill items and you sell him a +6 skill item, you are twinking. If he is regularly finding +2 skill items and you sell him a +2 item specific to his needs, this is perfect. Marginal cases, such as the +4 item, are generally acceptable if they do not have other properties, but this is also a case-by-case basis, so use good judgement.

It may surprise you to learn that we on the staff spend considerable time going through players' inventories, so we have a good general idea of what items are available to characters based on their activity and experience. If I see a level 6 player with a few +2 items he may be a twinker, or a good player. I will watch him to see which is the case. If the same items are found on a level 4 character, he is twinking!

I have had the unfortunate duty of removing overpowered items from players, and in one notable case a player with a DM granted item was forced to relinquish the item due to a character rebuild. This kind of thing is un-fun for the player and DM alike. So please don't ruin my day by twinking.

Any DM will help you if it's a case where you truly do not know. Don't be afraid to ask, we are here to help.

[Munroe]

*bump*

[ladyphoenix]

I am confused a little.

If I get a new suit of platemail (masterwork) and I want to sell my old one. Do I need a Merchant License?

The boards and one merchant on the game have said you do. Another mercahnt on the game told me that I don't and she would not take the money or help me with it because it was not needed.

Which is true?

[Savoie Faire]

If you sell one obsolete piece of equipment in an IC manner without hawking it on the corner of the Regal Griffon you are not engaged in merchantile activity and don't need a license.

If you sell several suits and/or advertise openly that you are selling, you are engaged in merchantile activity and need a license.

[Munroe]

Bumping the merchant pricing threads. Note that the Merchant License has been updated with set minimum prices for many common item types.

The pricing minimums (50% of shop or the license-listed minimum) still apply whether the seller is licensed as a merchant or not. That includes when a licensed merchant PC is buying items from an unlicensed (non-merchant) PC.

[FlyingMidget]

Jun 21, 2014 14:19:13 GMT -5 Munroe said:

Bumping the merchant pricing threads. Note that the Merchant License has been updated with set minimum prices for many common item types.

The pricing minimums (50% of shop or the license-listed minimum) still apply whether the seller is licensed as a merchant or not. That includes when a licensed merchant PC is buying items from an unlicensed (non-merchant) PC.

Mar 28, 2011 17:41:17 GMT -5 Munroe said:

To clarify this point, items should not be sold for less than 50% of prices found with NPC merchants who carry the item. Most items that you're likely to come across can be found in a store in the module. Setting up your prices may involve traveling around and looking through shops to find these in-store prices. (Think of it as market research for competitive pricing.)

If an item cannot be found in a store, it can be priced at 2.5x (250%) what the item could be sold to an NPC merchant for. This only applies for items that can't be found in a store, it is not an excuse not to check stores nor a work-around to undercut the 50% price-point.

This is an OOC concern to prevent people from being able to accquire goods too cheaply. As such, failure to follow these price guidelines is addressed in an OOC manner.

Note that this does not specify how much EXTRA you can charge for an item above and beyond these rates, only the minimum pricing. (Though if your price seems like an excuse for twinking by having a wealthy friend by crap at very high prices, that will still be addressed.)

================================================

That having been said, the Merchant License is an in-character construct and ultimately has no significance concerning item pricing. People selling without a license should still follow the minimum pricing formulas as these are an OOC concern.

The in-character punishment for operating without a license involves confiscation of goods and is detailed on the list of laws and punishments in Greatgaunt.

Bumping this thread as a reminder to newer players as well as old players that are new to the side of merchanting to be aware of the rules involved in such so as to not get into any sort of trouble. I quoted what I believe are the two most relevant quotes in this thread just for ease of reading but do encourage people to read the rest of the replies in this DM Q&A as well as the others if they feel even somewhat unsure or to ask here or even just poke a DM regarding their questions and concerns if they have any.

FM.