Assassins and Neutrality

[Anaxarete]

Xarete here; hope I'm not stirring up too many threads or too much trouble, because here's another one!

I believe this is a standard NWN rule, though -- so it's not much a conversation about FRC policies, but my general confusion. Why is that everyone who takes a level in Assassin must be Evil? It seems to me that it should be any non-Good...

Okay. Sure, the surface evaluation is easy to figure out: Killing is the ultimate act of evil, and if you're an assassin, you're doing it for money even!

That seems really limiting, however. I mean, having just read the 'how to RP alignment' thread, it seems even sillier. Not every assassin is going to be a brutally evil, twisted person, in it for the joy of killing and the money, right?

Okay, take Mrena for instance (durr). I wanted her to eventually take levels in Assassin right off the bat (this is all OOC info., remember!) -- I remembered the prereqs as being Tumble, Move Silently, and Hide, but not the evil part!

Mrena is a follower of Hoar (deity of poetic justice and vengeance -- he's LN); she's Lawful Neutral, in that she follows a code of conduct/dogma set down by Hoar. It reads in Hoar's bio that his clergy often multi-class as assassins, and that he's actually worshipped widely by assassins... But they don't just go around killing people for the fun of it (unless they've seriously strayed from Hoar's intended path); they seek out those who have been wronged and are too weak to do a thing about it, listen to their tales, evaluate their worthiness, and go from there -- sure, they assassinate people, but by the way they go about it, is that really so evil? It may not be entirely good, but I definitely wouldn't think of it as evil.

I mean, aren't there corrupt individuals out there who just need to be, for all the wickedness they've inflicted upon others, killed? And so what if it happens to be a rather shady and sudden death that they never saw coming? Perhaps that in itself is poetic justice.

"Violence will meet violence and evil pay back evil, but good will also come to those who do good. Walk the line of the Doombringer's teachings, seeking retribution, but do not fall into the trap of pursuing evil acts for evil's sake..." Snatched from Hoar's dogma.. which a bunch of assassins follow.

Well, that's what I have to say. Anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

[Talus]

Well this should be interesting. I know there are more than a few differing opinions out there on this. I think the evil requirement for the assasin class isn't a bad thing, but you make some really good points on alingment in general. To kill someone for money, do it with not a care of who it is, that to me is evil. But to do it for prinicipals of justice and retribution, well I don't know. I guess the means of your justice might be evil. I don't know, Neutral to me is difficult to play, because there is such a range that can be played.

[Spooks]

Well... Neutral...

I personally think, that if you're killing out of vengeance, you're evil.

Why would Mrena kill people?

Is she getting payed? I see that as evil, being as she is selling people's lives.

Just tell me:

Why do you think it a Lawful neutral thing to kill people? Not only that but, why would a Lawful neutral people learn "Death Attack"? Seems like a pretty evil thing to do to paralyze people and kill them while they are defensless.

Also, you don't need to take levels in assasin to be an assassin.

[Anaxarete]

spooks said:

I personally think, that if you're killing out of vengeance, you're evil.

Even if you're doing it for others who are weak to carry out their own revenge? Even if you're striking down someone who has hurt others? Even if you're carrying out justice?

spooks said:

Why would Mrena kill people?

Is she getting payed? I see that as evil, being as she is selling people's lives.

To do as Hoar teaches. To enact poetic justice. To help those who cannot help themselves.

No, it wouldn't be for money -- again, it would just be for Hoar, and for the sake of the person who was wronged.

spooks said:

Just tell me:

Why do you think it a Lawful neutral thing to kill people? Not only that but, why would a Lawful neutral people learn "Death Attack"? Seems like a pretty evil thing to do to paralyze people and kill them while they are defensless.

Also, you don't need to take levels in assasin to be an assassin.

All followers of Hoar are lawful (either evil, neutral, or good) in that they work to uphold justice -- just, in a rather darker and more ironic manner than Tyr would. Not evil, just different. The neutral coming from her devotion to "walk the line of the Doombringer's teachings" -- never comitting evil for evil's sake; only serving out violence to those who have inflicted it, and only killing those who have killed. Again, it all ties back to helping people who have been wronged, and who cannot carry out their own revenge, to serve a greater justice.

Anyway, more on this later, for now I need to get ready for work.

Quick note: Ah, good point with the Death Attack thingy.

[kenny26]

once again everyone instantly takes the words too literally...

define assasin: a hired killer, or a person killing for a purpose.
rogues have all the skills and class features to do excactely this...

so what if you can't take the class labled assasin? if you're a rogue, seeking out individuals, killing them for poetic justice, then you're an assasin!

jargo has levels of rogue, but he's not a thief or assasin. i consider the rogue side of him to be a swashbuckler. there's no class of that name in nwn, so i just picked rogue and play jargo as if he was a swashbuckler, using his rogue skills for fencing.
this is just one example of how you can use the diversity of a class to roleplay a profession even though your class happens to have a different name.

the assasin class being evil is quite simple:
the very first class feature you learn is poison use (in dnd at least, i don't know if it's the same in nwn though).
poison isn't evil enough? then how about death attack as mentioned above?
how about using poison not just once in a while, but so often that you actually start building up a resistance to it because you handle poison all the time?
the assasin prestige class puts alot of focus on killing mercilessly, using any means available to him, ignoring all ethics.
even neutral people have ethics, even neutral people will draw the limit at some point and not be willing to stoop to a certain level, like using poison...

if you're still not convinced that the assasin class is evil, then i suggest you just dismiss it as a silly error in the game that you can work around much more easily than have it changed.

hope this input helps.

[Anaxarete]

kenny26 said:

hope this input helps.

It did. Point taken. ;D Thanks!

Er.. I'll expand on this reply later. When. I have more time. In the meanwhile, since you guys are so helpful.. where can I find a pair of matching socks?! Argh!

[Quadhund/Greenhouse]

I think you have to look at what it means to be an assassin. In order to become an assassin in PnP you have to kill someone for no better reason to than to kill them. You have to be devoid of all your emotion. If someone hires you to kill your mother, you ask, "How much?" or reply with, "Do I get to drink her blood too?" People who "assassinate"/murder those who they think are doing harm to the world (ie. evil people), don't probably consider themselves assassins. I would be willing to bet they define themselves more as paladins . If you have read the Drizzt books, Artemis Entreri is a prime example of what it means to be an assassin. He'll kill you if you get in his way on a bad day.

Assassin is a very specific type of character, but my recomendation is this: you can play an assassin type character without actually taking levels in assassin. If you worship Hoar, and retribution is your thing, then usually there is some sort of passion behind that. You are not killing for the sake of killing, but for other reasons. If you are unable to force your character to evil in order to meet the prerequisites for assassin, this most likely means that Mrena wouldn't be an "assassin". Perhaps she is more like mercykiller, or someone who goes out and finds people who were done injustices and then extracts vengeance on the wrongdoer. To me this sounds more like a neutral character, because they feel like they are doing something right in the world, even when their means are evil. (hehe sounds like Hrothgar a little)

To me, if you want an understanding of the mentality of an assassin I would look at some of the serial killers found here in america (BTK, John Wayne Gacy, Manson and so on). They are cold, calculating, and devoid of emotion. The only difference is they kill for gratification, whereas other assassins might do it for work.

[Sarah]

(sara)

just a quick say here

Assassins are any

becouse assassins are just hired to kill

E.I. a bounty hunter...just someone who is making gold

but yes most are evil becouse is the steyle

________________________

*smiles*

[soulfien]

Before anyone else says killing for money is evil, think back on the last time your noble PC went adventuring. You entered some distant cave or crypt, slaughtered everything, and looted their corpses. Or perhaps when you went and killed Gruush and took his head back to the Purple Dragon for a reward.

Killing for cash isn't always a bad thing obviously. Just depends on who you're killing.

[Booze Hound]

anaxarete said:

kenny26 said:

hope this input helps.

It did. Point taken. ;D Thanks!

Er.. I'll expand on this reply later. When. I have more time. In the meanwhile, since you guys are so helpful.. where can I find a pair of matching socks?! Argh!

dude just wear boots, my socks never match.

[Spooks]

logandoug said:

anaxarete said:

It did. Point taken. ;D Thanks!

Er.. I'll expand on this reply later. When. I have more time. In the meanwhile, since you guys are so helpful.. where can I find a pair of matching socks?! Argh!

dude just wear boots, my socks never match.

I swear doug, playing yourself in elven form must be wuite a struggle. lol

[Booze Hound]

spooks said:

logandoug said:

dude just wear boots, my socks never match.

I swear doug, playing yourself in elven form must be wuite a struggle. lol

yeah sometimes i crack myself up whe I think about just how similar Vind and I are lol. remember? I got freaked out the other day even thinking about playing a clean elf chick. I'll stick to grungy dude, thanks ;D

[Grozer]

quadhund said:

Perhaps she is more like mercykiller, or someone who goes out and finds people who were done injustices and then extracts vengeance on the wrongdoer. To me this sounds more like a neutral character, because they feel like they are doing something right in the world, even when their means are evil. (hehe sounds like Hrothgar a little)

Wow that sounds like Ranan too! See he isnt that bad I tell you, just misunderstood! OK, back on topic...

[Anaxarete]

Thank you guys for clarifying! It really helps to get other perspectives on stuff. I have seen the light~

I said I'd expand on this, but I find myself lacking things to expand with. So. I found socks! They matched! They were my black Pacman socks... but I was running out the door, so I failed to notice that one had a hole in the heel... I loved those socks, too! Man, my Chucks are hard on socks...

...um. Yeah. On topic: thanks for all your wise words!

[Colds]

Too bad BioWare didn't implement the Vigilant or maybe the Blood Hound, because they seem to fit your character's description better.

But, I mean, you don't -have- to take Assassin levels. I'm sure you could do fine, if not even better, without them.