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Post by MTGPackFoils on May 17, 2006 6:57:09 GMT -5
Is it possibile to worship demons, devils, and other outsiders within the server?
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Post by hexer on May 17, 2006 7:04:18 GMT -5
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Post by Grozer on May 19, 2006 22:45:21 GMT -5
At the risk of responding when I shouldnt.... sorry but I have some followup questions on the exact same topic because I have some ideas in mind...
I was scanning through the book of vile darkness and I got the impression demons and devils can have clerics. For example, referring to the cult of asmodeus, the description of the cult even goes so far to suggest what domains would be taken by the devil worshipping cleric. Anyway I understand devils and demons are not gods. The post you referred to talks about the devils being patrons for evil cleric and more of a cult than a religion.
So am I misinterpreting the description for the cult of asmodeus? Would he in fact NOT have clerics as the book of vile darkness suggests?
If the answer is the cleric's of evil gods would be devil worshipper cultists, then wouldn't the specific evil god be a little upset that his/her priest follows a devil in a cult like fashion?
Ok maybe I am not making much sense...
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Post by Munroe on May 19, 2006 23:44:31 GMT -5
Since you're using the Book of Vile Darkness as your reference, here is what the Book of Vile Darkness says about it:
Book of Vile Darkness (pg. 123): ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Archfiends and Clerics
The demon lords and archdevils described in this chapter cannot grant spells to clerics. Instead, they act as patrons for clerics who devote themselves to abstract sources of divine power, and they assist the clerics of evil gods. They have worshipers who perform sacrifices in their name, but they don't run organized religions the way gods do.
If you want the demon lords and archdevils to have organized faiths and grant spells, it's easy to do so. Chapter 6 identifies which domains each archfiend would be associated with (see the Cleric Domains section in the spell lists). If you have the Deities and Demigods book, you can give each demon lord and archdevil divine rank 1 and adjust their statistics accordingly. This divine rank will give them maximum hit points for each Hit Die; more spell-like abilities; some extra immunities and sensory abilities; a +1 bonus to Armor Class, attacks, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks; and a scattering of other divine abilities. In practical terms, the demon lords and archdevils are powerful enough already that giving them a divine rank doesn't make a huge difference. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since clerics in Faerun always receive their spells from their patron deities rather than abstract sources, a cleric who was aligned with an archfiend would still need to serve an FR god. The domains lists are provided for DMs who choose not to obey this rule in their campaigns and grant demons and devils the ability to support clerics. It's a case of the book giving a rule and resources for the DMs to choose not to obey it.
Since we're speaking specifically of Forgotten Realms, and the Book of Vile Darkness is not specific to Forgotten Realms, here is what Faiths and Pantheons has to say on the same topic:
Faiths and Pantheons (pg. 6): ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Worshiping Fiends
Some powerful demons and devils have found ways to garner power from mortal worshipers in the same manner as deities. Although these beings are cruel, sadistic, and unreliable, some beings on Toril see them as a means to quick power. Fiend-worshiping cults are usually very small and localized, with few followers and a tendency to disintegrate in the face of opposition or when the fiend gets distracted by other things and stops granting spells. Still, some fiends establish a permanent foothold on Toril in this manner--Gargauth is a former archdevil that has become a deity, and the minotaur deity Baphomet is a demon. Two other known demons worshiped in Faerun are Orcus (responsible for much of the trouble in Damara years ago) and Pazrael.
In some ways, worshiping a fiend is similar to how some souls bargain with the baatezu in the afterlife. A mortal makes a pact with a demon or devil, promising worship and sacrifices in exchange for spells. The agreement usually entails condemning the worshiper's soul to the Abyss or the Nine Hells under control of the fiend in question. The pact generally stipulates that if the mortal fails to propitiate the fiend with frequent sacrifices, it may slay him and take his soul back to its outer planar home. While this seems like a bargain stacked in the favor of the outsider, the fiend usually makes few demands of the mortal other than the sacrifices, so the mortal doesn't have to worry about morals, restrictions on behavior, dogma, or improper use of the granted spells.
Information on domains, favored weapons, and portfolios for Baphomet, Orcus, and Pazrael can be found in the Monster Deities table in the appendix of this book. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------
As a book specific to Forgotten Realms, Faiths and Pantheons supercedes Book of Vile Darkness, and it indicates that archfiends can and do grant divine spells to their cultists on Toril, for a price agreed upon beforehand.
However, as this has generally not been used here, I would suggest not rolling up a Cleric of Asmodeus or Demogorgon on my word of it.
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Post by hexer on May 20, 2006 0:15:06 GMT -5
Well, I play a follower of Baalzebul... I love him to death. My all time favorite character. I've always liked the idea that fiends *didn't* grant spells. It gave it all the much more of a 'culty' feeling.
But, as you say, Faiths and Pantheons supercedes the Book of Vile Darkness. If someone were to take up a divine spellcaster of a certain fiend, I think that, given the nature of the bargaining (striking a deal with a fiend) it should be done through DM interaction only. This means that, yes, it can happen... But there's a chance it may not. That's the risk of fiend worship. After the Time of Troubles, Ao made it so the Gods draw their power from their followers, forcing them to actually pay attention to their mortal clergy... Fiends are not bound by this. They don't *need* a following to keep their power... They strike deals when its convienient or when someone truely makes a show of faith that draws their attention.
But, that's my take on it.
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Post by hexer on May 20, 2006 0:19:03 GMT -5
This is, of course, not to say that they don't thrill at the idea of a large following... But they are less prone to grant their followers spells as the dieties do because they are by no means bound to do so.
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Post by Grozer on May 20, 2006 12:15:09 GMT -5
Ok so its a stretch to make it happen and you basically have to sell your soul got it.
For evil clerics that offer sacrifices to archdevils, recognize these fiends, show them reverence etc isnt that a conflict with his/her deity?
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Post by Munroe on May 20, 2006 14:41:11 GMT -5
Ok so its a stretch to make it happen and you basically have to sell your soul got it. For evil clerics that offer sacrifices to archdevils, recognize these fiends, show them reverence etc isnt that a conflict with his/her deity? Not really, no. An archdevil is still just an evil outsider. Unless the cleric is worshipping it as a god with equal reverence to his/her own god, I don't really see that it is a conflict with his/her deity unless that deity specifically has in its dogma something about worship and prioritizing. An evil cleric is likely to respect greater evil forces that can be advantageous to him/her. Offerring the sacrifice could be a conflict depending on the nature of the sacrifice. Basically if it was a sacrifice to receive favour with the archfiend for some specific end, I don't see a conflict but if it was a sacrifice just to glorify the archfiend then that is more a sign of worship. Clerics are tools of their deities and if the cleric is working toward the goals of his/her deity without violating specific dogma, I don't see a problem with evil clerics aligning themselves with evil outsiders, archfiend or not.
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Post by heimdall on May 20, 2006 16:41:59 GMT -5
Let's take Bane for a 'hypothetical' example......the first line of his dogma reads: "Serve no one but Bane"
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Post by Munroe on May 20, 2006 18:42:21 GMT -5
Hence why I said "unless that deity specifically has in its dogma something about worship and prioritizing." I thought I had it covered. :-)
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Post by Grozer on May 20, 2006 23:11:49 GMT -5
Let's take Bane for a 'hypothetical' example......the first line of his dogma reads: "Serve no one but Bane" Umm ya I think I remember that rule from somewhere. But serving and offering respect or working with an archfiend is different no? I mean one could still serve Bane and gain additional advantages to pursue his end goals by working with a devil or demon. Sorry I may be overanalyzing these questions but I've been wondering about these questions for a while now.
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Post by moulinous on May 21, 2006 1:11:37 GMT -5
Just to throw another question into the fray on this...is Asmodeus an arch devil or a god of devils? i thought he was like big numero uno so he would have clerics where as just some "normal" balor we never heard of would not. I mean, Asmodeus is a "well-known" arch devil so would he not get demi powers at least? And what about the elemental lords? Like Kossuth who have their powers as well no matter what, correct? And really, i am just asking to see what they would have in FRC...
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Post by hexer on May 21, 2006 3:01:56 GMT -5
Just to throw another question into the fray on this...is Asmodeus an arch devil or a god of devils? i thought he was like big numero uno so he would have clerics where as just some "normal" balor we never heard of would not. I mean, Asmodeus is a "well-known" arch devil so would he not get demi powers at least? And what about the elemental lords? Like Kossuth who have their powers as well no matter what, correct? And really, i am just asking to see what they would have in FRC... Nope. He's just an archfiend... Well *the* archfiend, but he's still bound by the rules of fiendom. He's not a diety, nor a demi-god. He's simply a very very very powerful outsider.
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Post by Guest on Aug 17, 2006 2:05:59 GMT -5
given the nature of the bargaining (striking a deal with a fiend) it should be done through DM interaction only. Would this apply to someone wanting to strike a deal with Gargauth as a background story?
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Post by Moloch on Aug 17, 2006 11:40:40 GMT -5
given the nature of the bargaining (striking a deal with a fiend) it should be done through DM interaction only. Would this apply to someone wanting to strike a deal with Gargauth as a background story? Although Gargauth is a former devil exiled from the Nine Hells, he is now a god and grants spells. So if you are asking if you can be a cleric and worship him... I would say yes. Now if you are looking to make a deal with him in game as part of character development in Cormyr well, that would require some character building on your own first. Post a background or PM it to one of the DMs if you want to keep it secret and we can put it in the DM forum. Second, build on that in game so we can see it develop and perhaps you might get a chance to make that deal. Obviously no promises. But in the very least you can worship and serve him.
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