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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 8, 2010 1:08:52 GMT -5
Topic of the week!..
So what I'm putting out to the community is.
which is easier to play?
What should a wizard know starting off? (sorcerers too)
what should they gain over time? (sorcerers too)
how people see Sorcerer's gaining their magic.
and is it Daunting to play a wizard on FRC. if So, why?
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anerwyn
Old School
Happy Kitty
Posts: 285
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Post by anerwyn on Jan 8, 2010 2:05:29 GMT -5
I have found that both classes have their advantages and disadvantages. I have heard a few folk say that Sorcerers are easier to play on FRC though. What should a wizard know starting off? (sorcerers too) I wouldn't be able to tell you specifics on specialists as I tend to play general casters, but I have found that starting off with a few defensive spells and an offensive spell or two to be best. I choose mage armor and magic missile as my first spells, I always start off with those two at least for both sorc and wizzy. what should they gain over time? (sorcerers too) As before I tend to stick to a good variety of spells to use. I tend to keep a 1 defense/1 augment/1 offense spell ratio with both classes until later levels when the augments last longer and the defense spells start to overlap some. (i.e. Drop Invis for improved invis and use that slot for another spell.) With wizards I tend to copy every scroll I find in to the spellbook. how people see Sorcerer's gaining their magic. I have always seen it as the character becoming more in touch with the weave. I've always seen a sorcerer as having some innate "feel" for the weave. It's not so much knowing as feeling the weave. I tend to RP my sorcerers as more instinctual with the weave. This means that my sorcerers may not use the same gestures or words as wizards (barring the auto speaking for casting NWN implemented). and is it Daunting to play a wizard on FRC. if So, why? I have heard that it is incredibly daunting to play a wizard on FRC. The main reason given to me by most wizard players is that some scrolls are near impossible to come by. Since wizards must learn anything beyond what you choose at level from scrolls I have heard a lot of gripes that some of the more powerful scrolls are out of most PC wizards' reach, either due to rarity or cost. A fighter may have to spend several thousand on armor but that is only once, whereas a wizard has to spend that multiple times to acquire the scrolls they need and (by their thoughts) becoming more useful to a party. This is all based on what I have heard though as I have yet to play a sorcerer or wizard on FRC. |
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Post by Munroe on Jan 8, 2010 2:24:18 GMT -5
A sorcerer is easier to roleplay. I can't count the number of times I've seen wizards whose roleplay suggested they should be sorcerers. Very rarely does a sorcerer's RP suggest the person is playing a wizard under the wrong class.
Wizards are supposed to be smart.
Sorcerers are supposed to be charismatic.
Timid sorcerers annoy me to no end, as do stupid wizards. A sorcerer casts spells by bending the Weave to his or her Will through force of personality. As such, sorcerers should have strong personalities, not weak ones.
We don't really have many high level sorcerers on FRC because most of our sorcerers become dragon disciples.
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Post by soulfien on Jan 8, 2010 3:52:25 GMT -5
What is a sorcerer? That is my question. HOW does a sorcerer cast spells? How does a sorcerer throw a fireball or cast mage armour or summon a dire spider? How do they KNOW that the weave can be bent like this if they just try.... I could understand it if a sorcerer rolled a 1d20 and randomly got a spell... But how does a sorcerer simply say "You know.... I think this time I will know flame arrow instead of hold person because I can empower flame arrow!". They don't study. They aren't born with knowledge of the weave. They are simply born with the ability to make weird stuff happen. That's why I don't play sorcerers. I think the whole class is bogus. ---------------------------- Wizards.... Wizards are daunting to build. Imagine a Warrior having to buy, find, trade, bargain, and dungeon crawl for each of his weapons and armour.... okay... now imagine him needing to buy 15 swords and 5 suits of armour each level. Wizards are expensive!!! But well worth it in the end!  |
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Post by soulfien on Jan 8, 2010 4:03:33 GMT -5
As far as a wizard's knowledge and roleplay? I find it easy. A wizard starts out knowing everything there is to know... about casting cantrips. Truthfully, wizards only know what they study. Take Ailren... Garistan went to him for knowledge of the Abyss. Gar's never been there... had never had a reason to study it. Wizards do not know everything but they are great at faking it A good RP'er of a mage will not have a hard time saying, "I have never seen anything like this before...." It all depends on the individual mage. Gar was a lore master... but ignorant to things like the planes. Ailren is a schoolteacher- he spends all his time learning and teaching. Eliana is a little girl who became a mage by circumstance, has a very keen mind, but is too immature to carry her studies into the real world. She can brew up a potion, think through a riddle or problem, but doesn't know much about physics or monsters or demonology or things like that. |
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Post by megascorpion on Jan 8, 2010 6:03:50 GMT -5
Well as I play a sorcerer who tries to be a wizard... DISCLAIMER: This is all my own opinions and I'm not trying to say that not thinking of things my way is heresy or incorrect. 1. Easier to play: Playing high CHA is really difficult in my opinion. As it is mostly in the eye of the beholder. Though as Munroe said strong personality... To play a wizard well it might, but not necessarily require you to read a lot of sourcebooks. As well as having to play a high int char. Which I find easier than playing a high wis char myself really  All in all though, a Sorcerer is likely easier to play for reasons Munroe stated. 2. Know starting off: Wizards should have basic knowledge of cantrips and 1st circle spells, possibly their outs and ins of the spells they have studies well enough to cast. Some minor to medium knowledge of one or a very few subjects they have special interest in as well as minor knowledge of things they might care about a bit. They are likely to be well read, but note that most of that reading is likely to be able to cast their first spells. Everything else is gravy at first levels Sorcerers: Uhm, generally about as much as the general fighter. Unless they're say, a scholar but fighters can be scholars to. Possibly they have inclinations to learn about spellcraft however to better control their spells. 3. Gain over time: Wizards: Intellect, power, knowledge, and possibly become a bit more anti-social due to all the reading and studying required Sorcerers: More confident, More powerful, More independent and possibly more arrogant with all the raw power they can unleash. 4. Sorcerers gaining their magic and using it: To answer this I'd like to quote Soulfiend above this post: What is a sorcerer? That is my question.
HOW does a sorcerer cast spells? How does a sorcerer throw a fireball or cast mage armour or summon a dire spider?
How do they KNOW that the weave can be bent like this if they just try.... A sorcerer is a person with magic stored in their blood, or rather their blood is attuned to the weave and has a portion of it stored inside. A sorcerer cast their spells by emotion, in the begginning they are unlikely to control it well, but with time they can call upon it at will... The same way you can do when say, imagining that you're angry and how you would feel when being angry. Then the somatic and verbal component likely come naturally or from a teacher, very rarely is it studied or researched... Spell components though I can't say really, unless they're told or read it somewhere I don't know how they know what stuff to use I RP my sorcerer as not having complete control of her casting. I've had the game engine bump me to the wrong map or up a hilltop all of a sudden before and I've RPed it as if she accidentally teleported herself. Or the way she gets a slaadi instead of one more appropriate to her alignment, or one she'd rather call. The characteristics of the sorcerer might also be influenced by the blood in their veins. Which comes from magical creatures... Say a sorcerer gaining spells from Sven(Pink elfy dragon) would be really into fashion |
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Post by Thrym on Jan 8, 2010 8:50:35 GMT -5
1. Easier to play:Depends on how the question is asked. Sorcerers certainly are easier to roleplay for new players, simply because a wizard is a very, very educated person who understands very well what he is doing, so if you lack knowledge about both the setting and the mechanics of your spells, you (no offense) simply won't be able to RP a believable one. A sorcerer on the other hand is pretty much a normal guy or girl who one day woke up with crazy powers, so as long as you can RP high charisma, you'll do fine even if you know next to nothing about the setting or how spells work. Powerwise? Impossible to say. And I mean it, it's impossible. Simply because how good a wizard is depends entirely upon the skill of the player. There are players who can't kill a bunch of kobolds with a level 5 wizard. There are also players who can effortlessly butcher a dozen ogres with a level 3 wizard without resting inbetween. That's just how much a wizard's power depends on the player. A level 1 wizard is, at the same time, the most powerful and the weakest level 1 char possible, completely depending on who's playing it. I'm inclined to think a level 20 sorcerer is better then a level 20 wizard because he knows all the important spells by then, but I can't say for sure, because I never really play sorcerers. I prefer my mages smart. I've played a bunch of low level sorcs though, and must say that I found them much, much weaker then wizards of the same level, simply because they have so few spells known they pretty much can't learn the important stuff. Add to this that often, you'll want to pick some bad spells for flavour reasons, making you end up with even less spells you need. For example, you might want your sorcerer's powers coming from fey ancestry, so you pick charm person as one of your first spells. It's very flavourful and fitting, and it might be awesomely useful if you get DM interaction, but I think we can agree it will leave you with a lot less combat power. Of course, this is from my perspective, so if your playstyle differs from mine, you might find sorcerer works better for it. If your mage tactics mostly consist of blowing up stuff with direct damage or spamming instant-kills, the sorcerer probably is the better choice, seeing as he can keep doing the same thing for much longer then the wizard.
2. What should a wizard/sorcerer know starting off?I am not sure what you mean here. If you mean spells, then.... well, I'm currently not exactly inclined to write a guide. If on the other hand you are talking about the lore skill.... A personal plea of mine: RESTRAIN YOURSELF. You can RP an educated character without quoting the books to the letter the whole time. I've seen level 5 chars rant about things I'd think twice about simply assuming Zaebros to know, and he has non-epic and Epic Skillfocus: Lore. I'm not saying 'Don't have your chars know obscure stuff', I do that myself, but please, please use some basic restraint. It's one thing to have your lore-master character have heard some basic things about even obscure stuff, it's something entirely else to start ranting half an hour about intricate details of them just because you, the player, so happen to know them. 3. What should they gain over time?Uhm, well. More knowledge I guess? As said, use some restraint. If you mean spells again, I'm still not inclined to write a guide. ;D 4. How do people see Sorcerer's gaining their magic?I usually go with ancestry. Dragons, outsiders, fey, famous wizards in the family... It's simple, and there are so many types of monsters with weird magical powers you never really run out of concepts, heh. Sorcerers gaining new spells I consider getting more control over their innate powers, tapping deeper into their ancestry, or whatever feels fitting. I think it's bad to generalize too much here, time to get creative. ;D 5. Daunting to play a wizard on FRC?Completely depends on how experienced you are with the class. If you're new to it, you'll have lots of trouble. I remember how useless I felt with my first wizard on FRC, heh. But... if you're an experienced wizard player... Well. From my personal experience, you'll have it a LOT easier then warriors, at all levels. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On a final note, because I have a feeling bordering on certainity I'll hear these two points: 1. Everything in this post said concerning class balance and who is stronger then whom assumes PvM without a DM. A DM can always make things challenging and create situations that will make the spellcasters ineffective and the warriors shine, but unless you are one lucky fellow, you won't have a DM interacting with you on most of your trips. If you are in fact so lucky, I wanna trade with ya. 2. Yes, a well balanced party is best and FRC is designed for parties, not soloing. I'm simply answering the questions asked in the original post.
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Post by EDM Neo on Jan 8, 2010 10:01:52 GMT -5
I might respond at more length later, but I just had an amusing thought, so I'll just ask:
How would people roleplay a high level wizard without any skill ranks in Lore or Spellcraft? It's not actually -required- to take either to gain access to your class features... so, theoretically, you could have a wizard who has studied and cast level 9 spells without understanding the first thing about magic.
They'd still have at least 19 int, and because Lore is not a trained-only skill, they'd still have +4 in it, but Spellcraft is trained-only, meaning you need to spend at least one rank in it to even be qualified to roll a Spellcraft check, even if you had 30 or 50 int.
How can that be explained? -Should- it have an explanation, or does it just make no sense to begin with and so it should be considered somehow wrong or bad form?
EDIT: I went back and did some more reading, and ranks in spellcraft are required to learn high level spells from scrolls or spellbooks in PnP, it's just not enforced in NWN. To learn a spell from a spellbook or scroll takes a DC 15+spell level spellcraft check, which you can't retry until gaining at least one rank in spellcraft. However, I think you can still learn spells from leveling up as a wizard without spellcraft, even if you can't learn new ones from scrolls.
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Post by 828stingstingneo on Jan 8, 2010 10:43:32 GMT -5
Roleplaywise, I'd say it depends on the person. I find it easier to roleplay mental stats that I have as a player, so a player with a high CHA would have an easier time RPing a sorceror and a player with a high INT would have an easier time RPing a wizard. Survivabilitywise, I did an experiment to see which class I found easiest to play. My wizard is dead, and my sorceror is still going. Of course, the dice could always be a factor there. What should a wizard know starting off? (sorcerers too) If you're talking about starting spells, it really depends on your roleplay and character concept. Otherwise, this really should depend on the skills one takes, in either case. When in doubt, roll a lore check with a DM. what should they gain over time? (sorcerers too) If you're talking about spells, I agree with the sentiment of getting a wizard's spell book as full as possible. Of course, you can optionally ignore spells if you know you'd never use them, ie. a druid wizard would have no reason to learn create or control undead. For sorceror spells, I think having one buff/circle is a good idea with the rest being either generic offensive spells (at least one of these after the buff) or any circumstantial stuff you have a use for. how people see Sorcerer's gaining their magic. I think how they get their magic isn't clear, even to the sorcerers themselves in spite of theories they may choose to develop about it. I therefore don't really worry about it too much. and is it Daunting to play a wizard on FRC. if So, why? Nope. |
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Post by iangallowglas on Jan 8, 2010 10:53:44 GMT -5
1.) I prefer to play Sorcerers but I think Wizards are easier to play. As a sorcerer you have a limited number of spells and they have to serve you in all situations. Unlike a wizard that can memorize undead destroying spells for a crypt, and holding spells for giants, the sorcerer has the same choice of spells for everyplace he goes. The wizard also gets a feat every five levels that a sorcerer doesn't get, that alone makes a wizard easier to play. Having the extra feats to put into Spell penetration, Spell Focus, and Item Creation feats is a huge edge for a wizard. As far as playing a high INT vs. high CHA, I think that just depends on the player as to which is easier. I prefer High CHA, I've never liked playing the guy that knows it all.
2.) I agree with other posters that have said a starting wizard should know the catrips and the basics of spells casting, but shouldn't know everything. Sorcerers really just need to show they have some force to their personality.
3.) In general, Wizards gain knowledge and mastery over their art with time, and Sorcerers become more self assure and comfortable with their ability to shape the weave to their desire.
4.) I've always thought of wizards breaking the weave to their will by the use of their spell books, and Sorcerers seeing the raw power of the weave and having an innate ability to shape it to their desires. As a modern example, a wizard would be an engineer, and a sorcerer would be an artist.
When I play a sorcerer, I try to only take spells that I have seen others cast. That way the sorcerer sees the magic used, has an idea what it can do, then focuses internally to see if he can bring about the same result. That doesn't mean he casts the spell the same way as another person would, only that he produces a similar result.
5.) Wizards are smart and the high level wizards here, for the most part, know their stuff. So if you want to play a wizard here, you should probably do the research needed to back up your high ranks in lore.
And I disagree with Soulfien, Sorcerers are not bogus. You can't read a book and become a great athlete, musician, or artist. Some things your just born with, and in the DnD world, magic is one of them.
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Post by Slanker on Jan 8, 2010 11:53:51 GMT -5
I got a question though about wizards, perhaps those that have played one extensively could give their view.
My knowledge of spells, their mechanics etc. is just not enough to play a very convincing wizard. I do have a low level wizard though, since they seem a fun enough class to play and I got curious. But is it necesarry for a wizard to understand his spells in order to know them. My view was based on rl stuff. I know how to work a 'fill in any house hold applience' for example what it does and what it is for, but I don't really understand the technical workings of them.
Basicaly I did the same with my mage. He studied hard and long enough to learn new spells and what they do, without fully understanding the mechanics behind this. So, would this be an acceptable approach to deal with lack of OC knowledge?
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Post by soulfien on Jan 8, 2010 12:00:01 GMT -5
You only need to know what they do to play a good wizard. You need to know that hold person cannot hold a giant. Or that Ethereal Visiage will not protect you from higher enchanted weapons.... Things like that. Also, it is good to know which spells are good against whatever spells your opponent is casting or which spellswork great together in tandem. Such as Hold Monster and Combust  I never pay much attention to the origins of the spells or how they work- just THAT they work and in what situation would each spell be most effective in. |
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Post by Vortex on Jan 8, 2010 12:08:42 GMT -5
Basicaly I did the same with my mage. He studied hard and long enough to learn new spells and what they do, without fully understanding the mechanics behind this. So, would this be an acceptable approach to deal with lack of OC knowledge? Not even fighters know how to fight well from the get go, hehe. One can get an IC master or tutor to teach them and they can learn from them. The IC master can OOCly explain the mechanics from the lesson that day. It creates some nice RP opportunities. |
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 8, 2010 13:03:01 GMT -5
Basicaly I did the same with my mage. He studied hard and long enough to learn new spells and what they do, without fully understanding the mechanics behind this. So, would this be an acceptable approach to deal with lack of OC knowledge? Not even fighters know how to fight well from the get go, hehe. One can get an IC master or tutor to teach them and they can learn from them. The IC master can OOCly explain the mechanics from the lesson that day. It creates some nice RP opportunities. I think thats fine.. I also think it's a nice twist, especially for a battle mage, or someone who is Goal Oriented with their magic. you learn enough to get to the next bit of power. It might seem foolish in conversation with other wizards, or not depending. but I'd say nice character twist. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In Reply to neo. I would see a character who gets to level 19 without much Lore or spellcraft. To be an apprentice who "got away with the goods" a stolen set of spellsbooks and the knowledge to read them. I like the character idea. but it would to me show a wizard who's Over indulged with someone else's hard work.. kinda cool actually but would be Very vulernable in a spell duel/against magic. Maybe would lack the RP knowledge to choose which spell will work each day. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Restate something as I was half asleep when I made the post. "what a character should know" was lore related. as well as it should go. What sort of General knowledge do people see a wizard knowing at the beginning. in terms of the planes/arcane/ etc. |
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Post by EDM Entori on Jan 8, 2010 13:07:54 GMT -5
one further point.
I've Always thought a sorcerer who just "gets power" to be sort of shoddy.
I've read about sorcerers, and I've found that they need some catalyst in a way, they need to see the spell, or if their magically inclined to read a spell, then they'll be able to cast it a lot. Being Intellectually weak however, they cannot know many.
to go back to munroes post, why is it that we so few of each. or perhaps heres a good question..
why do so few multi task out, or how can we say do not stay pure(currently only one or two to my knowledge).
fewer still make epic. IMHO.
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With regard to scrolls. I was actually thinking they were too available.
my reasoning here, is that if they are available to Everyone that will cut down on roleplay. There are a few wizards around who are able to craft scrolls, as well as those found in loot. I've always as a player thought that the search for magic was daunting but provided a big RP outlet for a wizard. one that goes away when you get them all.
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Post by austrogoth on Jan 8, 2010 16:18:06 GMT -5
I don't get people saying that wizards are too limited because of lack of scrolls.. You do learn two new ones every time you level up after all; even if you never acquire a single scroll elsewhere you'll still have access to far more than any sorcerer will. It's tough to own EVERY SINGLE spell, yes, but you have little trouble getting all the ones you really need.
Also, wizards do get fewer a day and have to memorize them in advance of course, but that's not as big a drawback as people make it out to be (especially on a persistent world where you tend to re-visit places and know what to expect, or when you just get experienced enough to know the general flavor of the encounters you'll be facing.)
If you want to talk about which is easier to play mechanics-wise, I'd ask what kind of spells you want to cast.
If you want to cast mostly offensive, direct damage spells Sorcerer is the way to go; you can't argue with effectiveness of the maximized and empowered missle storms. My big problem with them really is the lack of choice of spells, especially from the sixth level on up. Sorcerers are very effective at what they do, but they kind of become one-trick ponies (or, several trick ponies)
If you want more buffs and defensive and tactical spells, Wizard is the way to go. Wizards have feats to burn and some of those should ideally go towards spell focuses and greater spell focuses- which will make the DCs on your favorite spells much more difficult to beat. A wizard's strongest strategy often isn't to just go in and throw around fireballs, it's to have a strong party with you, buff them, and then go to town disabling the enemies with confusion, holds, flesh to stone, mass blindness, etc. Not saying you HAVE to play this way, of course, just saying what I find much more effective.
And then there's the whole world of Counterspelling... Where wizards really excel, unless the sorcerer used valuable slots on dispels and disjunctions. If you play a wizard and don't know what counterspelling is... you're missing out on one of the strongest aspects of your class.
But really, when you get down to the basics, it's really just whether you want to play studious and smart, or strong-willed and charismatic. I'll always go for smart myself, but I can see where charisma would be fun.
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Post by 828stingstingneo on Jan 9, 2010 11:23:27 GMT -5
To Restate something as I was half asleep when I made the post. "what a character should know" was lore related. as well as it should go. What sort of General knowledge do people see a wizard knowing at the beginning. in terms of the planes/arcane/ etc. Since ranks in Lore are not required to play a wizard, I'd say it greatly depends on RP and character background what the ranks (if any) represent. However, since Lore is used in game as a way to identify magical items and poisoned mushrooms, Lore represents at least some knowledge arcana and knowledge nature in my mind (for any class, not just wizards). to go back to munroes post, why is it that we so few of each. or perhaps heres a good question.. why do so few multi task out, or how can we say do not stay pure(currently only one or two to my knowledge). fewer still make epic. IMHO. As for this, is there really such a minority of single class mages or is it a factor of most characters multiclassing in general? As far as I can tell, most characters adopt a second class eventually no matter what class they begin with. |
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Post by easternenterprise on Jan 9, 2010 23:14:32 GMT -5
Topic of the week!.. So what I'm putting out to the community is. which is easier to play? I've a strong personnality and I never thought myself the brightest nor wisest individual the world has made; so a sorcerer has been easy for me. I've made my share of wizards before but I didn't like them because I couldn't ever invest in enough charisma for them to make me like them enough since I like my characters with personnality, as to not be drones, but more importantly wizards felt too...artificial. It may sound weird to some, but I think people will understand where I come from. A sorcerer's personnality and magnetism is what shapes their spells. This is likely also going to include an element of their surrounding lands (place of birth, or current home), how they were brought up, and even when they first began to develope their magical talents, be it at a young age or older. As well as a slew of other things too, even down to ones diet perhaps. As pertaining to Sharteel, she's a sorceress whose spells reflect a battlehardened life, past environment, and current developments. See above See above I found it daunting to play a wizard on FRC because it felt like most people wanted to use you more, for OOC means; to appraise goods for quick, high coin. My overall experience with wizards on here has been very low, save for two exception. I've a very conviluted science behind the mysteries of Sharteel regarding her sorcerous ways. She did develope her draconic heritage, and a lot, but not only that: she's also a rather high level spellcaster too now. She's focused a good deal of time in her life by now at developing the weave to further help her draconic exploration more (this should suggest an investment in both spellcraft and even lore, to some). This wasn't any detailed, proactive, nor rigorous study like a wizard might do (regarding the Weave) - This was a more of a "Oh that sounds neat, now how can I amplify it with my beauty and present power and make it more perfect?" The vanity she has has never gone away since day one (as of her first disciple level), and funny enough, I didn't make her develope Eagles Splendor (as of yet), but I did make her invest in charisma-gear...which never seems to end...Dragon likes pretty things I've nothing else much to say on the character that cant otherwise be discovered in game. But if some folks want to see a truly fierce and strong personallity, someone very charismatic (and beautiful and powerful, and not to mention rich), then do swing by my cave...I'll shower you with endless amounts of beauty, as well as physical displays of might...particularly when my claws sink into your throat for tresspassing! ;D  |
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All in all though, a Sorcerer is likely easier to play for reasons Munroe stated.
