mythosfakir
Old School
Originality: The only weapon against the mundane.
Posts: 412
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Post by mythosfakir on Dec 4, 2009 23:10:54 GMT -5
I really like all the source info on divine champions provided, but there really isn't anything to help you rp them as a unique and individual class. From what's provided...they're basically a paladin, and I just don't see the class that way. For instance, what separates a divine champion from a paladin? If you saw the two stood side by side, what would be different? What sorts of rites/ceremonies/tests must one go through to become a Champion? I realize that a divine champion varies depending on the god in many aspects, but is there perhaps some example or info on various champions of various gods, what's expected of them, etc? For instance: how should a divine champ of Corellon appear/act/be perceived? What makes him different from just a simple fighter who follows Corellon - I mean aside from the PrC abilities? Doubt there's any source info on this, but I'm really just looking for something to offer some guidelines on this.
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Post by ancientempathy on Dec 5, 2009 0:08:40 GMT -5
I got sooo lazy with forum work I may start a thread for divine champions and how they RP them. When it comes down to information, what we got here is more than enough to work off of Style and interpretation is all in the eye of the beholder If an elf warrior sounds like they love, hump and adore Corellon so much, then they're prolly DC material even if they dont take the levels in it, as a side note I think a DC differs vastly from a paladin because a paladin IMO has higher morale standards to adhere to and a vast amount of more restrictions Some quick notes about my former divine champion of the Red Knight: - Gorstag took a trip to Chessenta to start his first of two ecclesiastical journies to prepare himself to be accepted as a champion. It is there he began to write a book on war machines and even started to invest in INT after that - On his return back, he'd take secret oaths and vows of utmost strategm secrets that could only be shared with clerics of his faith. Should anyone ever tell their strategies to Gorstag, an oath would bind him to never speak of it to the persons enemies. If the person became an enemy of Cormyr (thus likely an enemy to Gorstag), he could use his knowledge then to defend himself and his faiths establishment. Other oaths included his prolonged use of a longsword solely (his goddess' blade), and only allowing for range weapons as the single most exception - His first level of divine champion was taken, then another. He made his second trip out to the Moonsea, where I had him band together with other Red Knight Champions to battle agaisnt an army of his churches enemy, Garagos. - Apart of his oaths and vows took the Dogma in reflection alot and kind of to a new level (began investing in Lore as well during all of this). He foreswore the reliance and call upon Luck in the battlefield no matter the circumstances. He's very supersticious about such off the field, seldom relying on it. Some may deem this as zealot, but a divine champion is a bit zealot of a faith IMO so my overall advise...just review Corellon's dogma. Apply it to the best of your ability in how you make your character act in its accordance. sometimes a character may just pick a particular part of a dogma to reflect upon. the values of the faith (dogma), were my guiding tools.
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Post by ancientempathy on Dec 5, 2009 0:16:09 GMT -5
I should probably emphasize a bit more on the book writing scheme. This act was done to show his devotion, sort of like, "Hey look at me, I'm good at many things the faith can put to use", type of deal I made him try to present himself to his faith to be accepted and have the mantle placed upon him - not just grab the mantle and say - "I'm in!" Others may do it differently Even before he took his trip to Chessenta, he had a lot of cleaning up to do. Lots of roleplay established and development done as friends are privy too, especially ones in the Royal Corps. Of all people out there, Darina saw his growth and change the most whose got a deep history with him, being one of the first people he initially traveled with
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Post by ancientempathy on Dec 5, 2009 0:42:18 GMT -5
I just overlooked Corellons dogma and portfolios (did anyone ever note Corellon has a crap ton of portfolios?), and in my mind I turned over a quick example of a Corellite Champion - Thril Di'ren (shock), takes vows to uphold art of war and magic to its utmost. He'll seek to defend and aid kin who are practiced fighters, veterans of war, and militia men on a whole, as well as being at the behest and assistance of Tel'Quessir magic users of the arcane - He uses a longsword, because pimpin Corellon uses a longsword (Thats made out of a Star. I totally forgot about that cool detail). His bladework is styled in such a way to perhaps need the assistance of war-oriented elves and spell casters. - To show his worth to Corellon at being bestowed a mantle of Champion (my personal approach), perhaps an ambition of his is to find and uproot a longlost magical artificat used during some great war. This can be done "behind the scenes" if you wish, like I did with gorstags journies. Hope that helps even more
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mythosfakir
Old School
Originality: The only weapon against the mundane.
Posts: 412
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Post by mythosfakir on Dec 5, 2009 0:57:57 GMT -5
Ironically that's all not very far from what I had planned for Thril - save I wasn't so ambitious as to expect to be able to get any kind of ancient artifact (since all of the Elvish artifacts are *insanely* powerful, particularly compared to the things I've seen on the server). My true difficulty lies in the way that the "church" of Corellon is...it's not nearly so bound and confined as many of the human churches since his church really is the entire Elven people - with a few exceptions. Given that...there really doesn't seem to be any sort of High Priest or Great Elven Corellon Servant or such that I've seen or heard anything about. And what I was wondering is if a Divine Champion is something more church-oriented or individual oriented. Basically, is this "champion" a champion in the eyes of the worshippers of the god first or is he a champion before anyone calls him a champion. I'm sure you can rp it either way depending on the god, I'm just somewhat confused on what may be the best way to do it. I think, though, that I've made my decisions in that regard. Really, I just wanted a thread to provide a bit more information for anyone else who has an interest in the Divine Champion class or specifically in an Elven or Corellon Divine Champion. I figure the DMs won't let me botch things up too badly. Though, I really would *love* to get my hands on a nice Elvish artifact...oh say...the Elvish Warblade mentioned in the Lore section of the forums. Ya know? The +4 holy, keen longsword that casts blade barrier and does other cool stuff? In all seriousness, though, I leave the finding of artifacts and stuff in the hands of the DMs. I'd rather be surprised by something like that than plan for it or bug a DM to do something so me-centered. Though if I find the artifact but don't keep it, I guess that would be okay since I'm not really getting anything out of it. Thanks for all the information, though. It really does help.
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Post by ancientempathy on Dec 5, 2009 1:04:59 GMT -5
At the end of the day you've a pretty sound mind on this
The choice you make will likely be a good one
Most people, dont put this amount of concious effort into their PrC choice, so I applaud you and respect such
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Post by EDM Entori on Dec 5, 2009 1:32:59 GMT -5
and you've seen nothing yet!
don't count your chickens though, theres high priests around .. just take awhile to meet.
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mythosfakir
Old School
Originality: The only weapon against the mundane.
Posts: 412
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Post by mythosfakir on Dec 5, 2009 2:59:11 GMT -5
and you've seen nothing yet! don't count your chickens though, theres high priests around .. just take awhile to meet. Well, if I don't meet the High Priest until I'm 40, it won't do much good waiting around for them before I start taking Divine Champ levels.
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Myth
Old School
Retired FRC DM
The Myth
Posts: 686
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Post by Myth on Dec 5, 2009 7:34:13 GMT -5
Uuhhh well hello everyone again! My main PC, or the one I used to play most is Amithrul Marostyne. He started as a warrior fully pledged to his service to Corellon. He was lucky enough to have a priestess, Alana by his side in his early time and then later the high cleric Vinduil to guide him along with other figures like a much loved and late now Baelnorn. I think that the divine champion class is more one of commitment and less one of recognition from others. In my eyes a divine champion is way better suited to elves than a paladin (then again I'm an AD&D 2nd fan and I think of paladins as something way more structured and human-like). With Amith I kind of stick to the term Kerynsuoress which is something as a holy warrior. Someone in absolute service of the Seldarine and pledged to the protection and safety of his kin. I'm not sure if this helped any, just thought I could share some of my thoughts from playing that particular PC, cheers
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mythosfakir
Old School
Originality: The only weapon against the mundane.
Posts: 412
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Post by mythosfakir on Dec 5, 2009 13:44:58 GMT -5
Every bit of info helps - if not me, then surely someone else who will have similar questions. From everything I've seen so far, I've actually been rping my character as a Divine Champ since his conception. That, actually pleases me, and I think I agree with Myth both in terms of Elves being better suited to Divine Champions than paladins and in his definition of a Divine Champ. I like the thought that a Divine Champion may be such for a very long time before anyone else recognizes that he is. I also like what was posted about becoming recognized as a Divine Champ, though - in terms of doing some great and recognizable service for their Faith. Perhaps such a service can be something that isn't a requirement to *become* a Divine Champion, but rather a duty that comes with *being* a Divine Champion (sort of a "you're a really strong warrior who fights for our god, and we have a problem. Why don't you go and take care of it for us?" kind of thing). Again, thanks for the info, and I hope plenty of others share their thoughts/opinions/info on this topic. The more viewpoints we get, the better fleshed-out this PrC can be.
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Post by Munroe on Dec 5, 2009 19:33:04 GMT -5
and you've seen nothing yet! don't count your chickens though, theres high priests around .. just take awhile to meet. Well, if I don't meet the High Priest until I'm 40, it won't do much good waiting around for them before I start taking Divine Champ levels. You think you'll get to 40? There aren't any level 40 characters on FRC so plan to play awhile. I don't think Ancient was saying anything about you getting an artifact from DMs, but more like RPing your weapon is an artifact. (That's how I read it anyway.) He was also saying Corellon's longsword is made from a star. That artifact you mention above would not be in player hands on FRC. The gods of the Seldarine don't have paladins because none of them are allowed alignments to support paladins. So divine champions do fit with them much better.
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Post by Munroe on Dec 5, 2009 19:40:15 GMT -5
I usually don't think of a divine champion as being as directly associated with the church as with the character's personal faith. I guess for lawful churches, they would have a structure for divine champions too, but I always thought of it as a much more personal path for a martial character.
This in part because the entry requirements for the divine champion class are so easy to meet. There's no alignment restriction (on the actual class, there is on on CoT), and the character only has to have the deity as patron and weapon focus in the deity's weapon (which we don't even enforce on FRC for some reason).
By my reasoning, that means if fighter Bob wanders in the forest for years and gains a deep personal connection to Silvanus, and adopts his weapon, he may become a divine champion of Silvanus. No oaths, just a strong faith and a personal commitment.
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Post by ancientempathy on Dec 5, 2009 20:26:25 GMT -5
Well, if I don't meet the High Priest until I'm 40, it won't do much good waiting around for them before I start taking Divine Champ levels. You think you'll get to 40? There aren't any level 40 characters on FRC so plan to play awhile. I don't think Ancient was saying anything about you getting an artifact from DMs, but more like RPing your weapon is an artifact. (That's how I read it anyway.) He was also saying Corellon's longsword is made from a star. That artifact you mention above would not be in player hands on FRC. The gods of the Seldarine don't have paladins because none of them are allowed alignments to support paladins. So divine champions do fit with them much better. Yes and yes..Thank you for clarifying LOL Although grabbing ahold of Corellons sword would be quite the story
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mythosfakir
Old School
Originality: The only weapon against the mundane.
Posts: 412
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Post by mythosfakir on Dec 6, 2009 13:31:09 GMT -5
You think you'll get to 40? There aren't any level 40 characters on FRC so plan to play awhile. I don't think Ancient was saying anything about you getting an artifact from DMs, but more like RPing your weapon is an artifact. (That's how I read it anyway.) He was also saying Corellon's longsword is made from a star. That artifact you mention above would not be in player hands on FRC. The gods of the Seldarine don't have paladins because none of them are allowed alignments to support paladins. So divine champions do fit with them much better. Yes and yes..Thank you for clarifying LOL Although grabbing ahold of Corellons sword would be quite the story lol I see that after re-reading, as for the three swords mentioned in the legend and lore, that's more of a little fantasy of mine, but I never expected to see them in FRC except maybe in the hands of some high-powered npc (and hopefully not one thinking to run me through with it. ) so I was more teasing with that. As for rping getting an artifact, I can see that, but I'd rather something like that be done with a group or a bunch of players instead of just by myself. That way there'd be rp opportunities for everyone and they'd extend beyond "Well, he *said* he went and got an artifact and fought all these nasty things...but since nobody went with him I doubt it was so bad". (I like to avoid "character posturing" by posting or rping things that didn't happen that if they had happened may make my character seem more powerful than he is.) I like what DM Munroe had to say on the matter as well. I somewhat see Divine Champ as a much more personal status than one that everyone else will look at and point to and say "That's a Divine Champion." Keep the discussion going, everyone. Lots of good info and viewpoints here. To toss more fuel onto the fire I've another question regarding this PrC. In the case of paladins there is obvious interaction between the paladin and their god (divine power, divine shield, lay on hands, etc). What about Champions? Their "holy" abilities are far fewer in number than paladins, but they do have access to lay on hands, divine wrath, and sacred defense. So, what does everyone think in terms of how involved is a god with one of his/her champions versus how involved a god would be with one of his/her paladins? This is speaking from a strictly roleplaying standpoint. If possible, I wouldn't mind compiling a lot of the points from this thread into a concise list of main points that can be added to the stickied section on the Champ PrC. Then one of the moderators could either make a new thread for the PrC or just append the information to the current one.
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Post by The Supreme Watcher on Dec 6, 2009 15:22:57 GMT -5
The difference between Champions and Paladins, to me, is that Paladins aren't trained, they're born. The abilities of a Paladin are a gift bestowed upon them by a god at such and such a time as they have reached their zenith. People can devote their lives to a god, train for years, follow their paladin code strictly, and never be bestowed the abilities of a paladin.
The Champion, to me, is what becomes of these people. They exemplify their deity's tennets and put faith and service above all else, but are not born into the gift of paladinness (paladinity? paladination?). For their service to their lord, they are granted abilities of a different sort. They are not the chosen carriers of the faith, but they have chosen to do so anyway. Because of that devotion, they have favor, represented in the rules by their class features.
For the Cleric, favor manifests itself as a result of enlightenment, dogma, church policy, and service.
For the Paladin, it manifests itself as a result of choosing (this is the most fleeting of the three, due to such a strict code).
For the Divine Champion, favor manifests itself as a result of indomitability, devotion, exemplification, and faith.
From the desk of Glandash.
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Post by Munroe on Dec 6, 2009 18:35:53 GMT -5
One thing that does bother me is that Champion of Torm is an uncapped class. Divine Champion in D&D is better than fighter, but it is capped at 5 levels, and five level prestige classes never have epic progressions. In NWN, Champion of Torm is a 10 level class, and 10 level classes do have epic progressions. I don't really see that a choice between fighter 10 levels and divine champion 10 levels is much of a choice. If divine champion were properly capped at 5 levels it wouldn't be in direct competition with the fighter class.
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