Classes - How do you think of them?

I generally think of most classes as merely skill sets, to be reflavored as necessary to fit the PC taking them.

To give an example... Eleanor is an ex Hin Fist monk/cleric of Yondalla, who recently has been beginning to take rogue levels. That is not because she's really rogue-ish in any traditional sense of the word! She's a LG super devout priestess, after all.

She spent some time in the company of a Hin Fist monk who took more than a single level of the class, and found herself somewhat envious of their martial prowess. So, she decided to try and pick up her own martial training again. She couldn't return to taking monk levels herself, having left her order to take cleric levels, but rogue made a good substitute.

Her fighting style in general is more about quick moves than strength; she took more skill points in tumble, representing improved acrobatic ability. The rogue level also improved her reflex saves, further representing the same. Her sneak attack I play as precisely striking at the pressure points/ki meridians/whatever of a distracted creature, thus inflicting increased damage. When something's full attention is on her, she doesn't have time to pick out the right spots. As she still only has +1d6 sneak attack, she's still generally not very good at it, but it was a noticeable improvement.

Makes sense?

Exceptions to this include most divine casters (I wouldn't say quite all), RDD, etc.

I agree with Kung-fu there, mostly, (especially the RDD, but I say no more at risk of hi-jacking)

the profession classes, can be professions or not.

I see a wizard, as a wizard, even if he has levels elsewhere.

I know a player that has one level wizard on their main and went to me one day and said "I'm a wizard too".. I personally laughed out loud. Because the character did not rp their wizardness, or that side of their character too much.

I know Entori has a Weird class set, mainly wizard, and some cleric and a ranger level.

So my idea on that, is that his base class, of wizard was his base class, that is what he is. He is a labelan, and through personal interactions he felt the call to labelas, and to finding that part of him, but not overly so, thusly only 2 levels.

Finally the Ranger, was based off his labelan-ness. (funnily enough)

he had his wife teach him to be more sneaky, as labelas fosters their clergy to have sneaky gear/skills. So the Ranger, was a good outlet to get those, and have his wife rub off on him, he is no way a tracker or scout, but a sneaky wizard, devote. for the record there I had enough sneak to get by without the ranger level, thusly why it came so late.

Classes are skill sets, but I think one often has to judge, how their character, gets those skills, and if it is worth the class or a few cross class skill points, or a few cross class skill points this level and next level enough to advance in those sets of skills.

I do not think Barbarian is a profession to acheive in, nor does one level wizard make you a wizard, merely the intial traits are given to you.

Fighter is a few levels that anyone could add to enhance their melee, etc.

PRC's I see more as paths a character chooses to go down, they are not a race, or state of being. the two prc's nwn offers that changes states of being do so by active actions on behalf of the original caster.

I see AA, or Champion of Torm, or any a profession a character has to aim for, thusly prerequisites.

anyways the above is just a rehash of what was already said I think, and I give it my stamp of approval..

the only weird part is where divinities come in, Such as A fighter of helm becoming taking too many Ranger levels. and gaining spells.
even then I personally do not feel it is a problem as long as the character does not use or make use of such spells. As for Scrolls, and wands, I'm fuzzy on how that would work, I feel that a scroll is a scroll, and that rangers/druids/clerics all share divine magic, while bards sorcerers, wizards, all share arcane, so I feel that if you can read a ranger scroll you should read a cleric scroll.

While many will argue the source of such magics the original go at Magic of Faerun says theres only two sources of power. The Weave, and "the power".. which is the gods, so really its either one or the other, (IMO)

The way I think of a class depends on the class. I think clerics are professionals kind of like a RL Minister/Priest/Rabbi. Even if they make a living on the side doing other things, they are always in part bound by their church and their clerical duties. Paladins in a strict order might similarly be professionals, but one not of an order might just be a LG fighter with special blessings from his god and an individual calling. A druid could also be part of a circle and may have ritualistic duties that make him more of a nature priest. It is my understanding that in the FR world not all mortals know for sure who their patron really is, so I could also see loner druids and rangers who develop their divinely granted abilities through their closeness to nature without knowing which patron is looking out for them.

I would argue that being a sorcerer is a state of being also since a sorcerer's abilities are inborn rather than studied like a wizard's. I'm not sure if the research required to become an RDD or pale master means it doesn't change your being in some way. Perhaps it wouldn't be if you had to continue certain learned rituals to maintain your status. However, what would happen if someone studied to become an RDD, got his wings, bumped his head, and could no longer remember the lore he'd learned? Would the wings fall off? I don't know enough about the class to say for certain, but I doubt they would.

I personally view bard as a profession mainly because I can't picture a bard without performing in some capacity, even if he is only using his art to inspire the troops.

Barbarians seem like they should be a culture or a life-style almost. His gift comes from his wildness, but he hasn't the education to be able to read or use the sophisticated equipment fighters use. I have a hard time picturing someone acquiring barbarian traits later in life and multi-classing into barbarian, but I personally haven't really looked into using the classes available to build classes unavailable, so perhaps acquiring barbarian later might help if you need the skill set.

Fighters and rogues can indeed fill a wide variety of roles. Both classes are very flexible with their roleplay. I see them as more of a skill set than having a defined role. Actually, I feel the same about wizards. Wizards are just ordinary people who have taken the time to study the weave so they can use it. The weave is powerful enough that someone with wizard as a main class would probably use his magic somehow in his profession, but other characters could just as easily use arcane casting as a skill they picked up because they felt it was useful. I wouldn't personally scoff at anyone who wished to RP he was a wizard after only multi-classing into one level of it, though. Perhaps he adopted the study of the arcane late in life, but he's no less a wizard than a lowly level 1 player who happened to take wizard as his first class. Of course, a powerful wizard who has dedicated his life to acquiring arcane power might rightly scoff at both ICly and view them as mere lowly apprentices still too wet behind the ears to be deemed real wizards yet.

I think that covers all the main classes, and I don't want to get into all of the prestige classes because I'll probably forget some of them. In any case, you probably get the general idea of how I think of the classes. In general I would say I prefer to see them as flexibly as possible unless the nature of the class dictates otherwise.

Good thoughts so far, just figured I'd add some of my own...

So let's say you're a Lawful Good character. You're a fighter who has trained and excelled enough to become a CoT or WM or DD. Somewhere along your journey you battle an extremely powerful creature that makes your martial prowess insignificant. So rather than give in...you start to wonder what made that creature so powerful, how did it defeat you? Most of the time the answer is...magic. So maybe your fighter starts to dabble in reading arcane runes and scrolls, maybe he picks up a wand and actually understands it...in other words: You mechanically take rogue levels for UMD. Now, while this may be considered poor rp or 'you're doing it wrong' by some, I hopefully have given folks a way to justify taking rogue classes without having to radically change your LG character. Now as to SA and other rogue specialties?Well, you can still rp fighting the same way if not making SA's is important to you, or else you can justify it as knowing when and how to strike your opponents from the flank. Now, if ya always hide in shadows and strike from there and your lore or what have you is against that, could be a problem. Otherwise I'd love to see critiques, other justifications, or scathing hatred for these words:)

Entori, no caster "has" to add any points into lore, or spell craft to cast the spell, the only prerequisite is being the correct level, and class.

Aside from epic spells, obviously.

Classes are the foundation on which you select certain building blocks to further flesh out your character's person. What I mean is, each class has skills, and abilities that they come with, or grant access to.

Classes are a part of your character's background. Generally we seek to have our character's class represent in some way their background. Rarely a class is restricted through alignment, to me, this means that the class is more than just what your character is learning to do, but it represents what your character is learning to "be" or "is"

So I'd place all base, non restricted classes as learn able skill sets.
While all alignment restricted classes are states of being.
Further, any classes restricted by feats, skills, and others are skill set specializations.

Non restricted classes never infer any alignment that the PC may be for me. A ranger is just as likely to be evil as good, same as a rogue. For me it is how each skill in your skill set is played out.

Sneak attacking is not all ways a back stab, that was removed a while ago, your bonus comes from knowing where to strike while flanking. And wanting to kill something is not evil in and of it's self, or Paladins would be pacifists.

A rogue may choose to spend time learning any of his available skills, but he doesn't have to. He may choose to represent his sneak attack as a well placed flanking strike, or as a from the darkness attempt to cripple and maim with ill intentions.

What I don't agree with though is when people take a class and use it to try to represent a different class that is selectable.

A sneak attack is a sneak attack, it is not a greater understanding of inner chi any more than a dominate person spell is a really convincing argument. Within the game, abilities are what they are because they are that ability.

A death attack is not a hold person spell placed on an arrow, it is a shot that causes so much pain that the victim is unable to move for the duration.

I probably should say "can" instead of "do"..

Because the class can take spellcraft, (the art of learning and building spells), I assume it is a skill that comes natural to that class, and while they do not all have to.

I feel that one would eventually do so, as a class skill to not ever take a class skill, to me is funny. and I think 3.5 forces you to take some class skills each level, (not certain).


but to my point I do not feel sorcerers shoot out specific trigger sequences to specific spells, at a whim of "natural knowledge"

I feel they have to experience that, sorcerers are also limited, they cannot cast all spells, like a wizard can, I feel this means they lack the ability to, so they are limited to what they experience. thats a personal opinion while sorcerers can deselect spells on level up, that to me represents them experiencing a new spell and taking it in use of one over another, I do not feel this should be a concious act, but one as if one took up a new instrument, like the clairinet to the sax, after so long the skill of playing the sax would degrade.